So where is the opposition to Bush anyway ?
POSTED BY: GinoBiffaroni
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 02:11
VIEWED: 10908
PAGE 8 of 13
Geezer- just for your information, the more I research the responsibilities and legalities involved in the NOLA disaster, the more I think Nagin actually did everything he could, while LA Dept Homeland Security made one serious error in keeping out the Red Cross. The rest belongs in FEMA's lap. Figuring this all out will require deep investigation. But the impetus will come from the average American recognizing the cost of those errors, and that recognition will come from seeing the dead.
Frankly, I don't care if the demand to not photograph the dead came from Honore or from LA Dept of Homeland Security. It was an illegal and unethical request as far as I'm concerned. I have no reason to gloat over the dead, but I think we all deserve to know the full truth. Don't you?
BTW- What do you think of Barbara Bush's comment about all thsoe evacuees in the Astrodone being better off there than at home? Seems about in-line with Bush going off the attend a b'day party the day after the levees broke, huh?
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Lynch
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Explain to me how the unecessary death of thousands is acceptable.
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I am not going to defend a position that is not my own. I have not stated nor implied such a thing.
(See my extended references and quotes for supporting documentation):
Most people did not die during the hurricane. THEY DIED WAITING FOR AID. FEMA was clearly the lead agency managing the disaster. In other words, most people died waiting for FEMA.
And yet you think the federal response was adequate, and any criticisms are merely political.
So the first question is, is there room for criticism? Or is the death of thousands acceptable?
Edited to add: Lynch, have you considered what it must be like to die of thirst? Can you imagine yourself stranded after a storm, unable to get out, and waiting, waiting, waiting for a simple drink of water in the most powerful country on the face of the earth - helpless and waiting till you die?
If you cannot empathize with dark faces, imagine they are simply young ones, like children you might care for. Or imagine they are old ones, like your parents, or even you in a few years. Or imagine it's you, law-abiding, dutiful, trusting, but simply in the wrong place and the wrong time, and therefore, slated to die by neglect.
The most callous often are those who've seen little death. And those who know what hell it is to die, can be the most humane. Which are you?
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Thank you Geezer for your wisdom in setting an appropriate timetable for emergency housing. It's so clear to me now - you are the ultimate authority to whom we should all defer.
Just trying to apply a little logic, like the fact that mobile homes aren't worth much without the infrastructure to support them. That has to be put in place before it does any good to move the emergency housing in. Since the New Orleans area is still mostly under water, It seems silly to drop mobile homes in and watch them float away.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
No, but they could be placed in Baton Rouge, or Houston, or elsewhere to get people out of stadiums and such
Don't think they give a shit
I'm with Signy and Rue
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Quit dancing around the core issue folks.
Bush *is* in charge of the country.
This would mean it's his damned responsibility and he either abrogated it illegally, or simply screwed the pooch so badly it's hard to wrap one's mind around.
The buck stops there, he's IN CHARGE, at the top, and it's HIS JOB (you know, that we elect and pay him for?) to handle this kind of thing.
As for the legalities, between FEMA and the whole slew of executive orders (some of debateable legality, but none ever challenged, ergo they are indeed in force.) sufficient authority was present for the things that needed to be done - it's a whole lot better to apologize to survivors than to explain to their next of kin.
In short - he's in charge, it's his responsibility, and his job, and HE BLEW IT.
It's every bit as simple as that.
-F
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Originally posted by rue:
"No matter where you want to put them, mobile homes need some basic infrastructure to be usable. If it isn't there, they are useless." No shit, Sherlock. And if they aren't installed, utilities and all, they are also useless. But that's beyond FEMA and the Army Corps of Engineers.
Please go back and actually read what I said, rather than taking a chunk out of context so you can make a smart-ass remark. If they aren't being put in place within a month, I'll be concerned. Right now other things take priority, like recovering survivors and bodies, clearing roads, and repairing bridges. Everyone who is out of the immediate disaster area is housed somewhere, with basic services in place. The mobile homes are used during the recovery phase to house folks who can't find anywhere else to live.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Originally posted by rue:
Geezer, this was a conversation between Lynch and myself. But since you saw fit to intrude, here is what you are defending:
---clipped to save space---
And yet Lynch thinks the federal response was adequate, and any criticisms are merely political.
So the first question is, is there room for criticism? Or is the death of thousands acceptable?
What's really funny about this is that you assign a position to myself, Lynch, Hero, and Finn, that is not true. All of us have stated in various threads that we think that the response was not adequate. None of us have said that the Federal government's response was adequate. We all recognize that things could hae been done better. We're all sorry that people have died. Hero has gone to great lengths within his community to obtain relief supplies, transport, and money to help the survivors. I've thrown as much money as I can spare to the Red Cross. I suspect Finn and AJ have done stuff as well.
The difference, as I see it, between us and you, SignyM, Chris, Ruxton, et.al., is that we think that the inadequacies are due to the unfortunately normal amount of mis-communication, mis-understanding, inefficiency, general Peter Principle management population, politics on all levels, from local to Federal, etc. A disaster much greater than anyone has actually faced just magnifies these faults. Planning only goes so far. Humans are only human and make mistakes.
You seem to think that it's a carefully planned evil plot, organized and directed by the White House alone, to do...something. I'm not quite sure what. Kill poor people, or black people, or poor black people? Prepare the way for a police state takeover of the country? Just generally screw things up then sit back with a martini and laugh? Line the pockets of the bottled water trust? (C'mon. You knew that one was coming)
Your side have made it obvious what you think of me, in various insulting language, although I disagree with your characterization. I consider you all paranoid crack-pots (but in the nicest possible way) and you probably disagree with my characterization as well.
I know there's not much point in writing this, since you probably won't read it through, and if you do will not believe it. Here it is anyway. Rant on.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quit dancing around the core issue folks.
Bush *is* in charge of the country.
This would mean it's his damned responsibility and he either abrogated it illegally, or simply screwed the pooch so badly it's hard to wrap one's mind around.
The buck stops there, he's IN CHARGE, at the top, and it's HIS JOB (you know, that we elect and pay him for?) to handle this kind of thing.
And why hasn't he mowed my lawn? Or at least sent someone to do it.
(Just kidding. Cheney was out yesterday, and did a great job.)
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
No, but they could be placed in Baton Rouge, or Houston, or elsewhere to get people out of stadiums and such
Don't think they give a shit
I'm with Signy and Rue
The FEMA trailers are used as relatively long-term housing when people have returned to their hometowns and need a place to live while they rebuild or find new housing. They aren't first-response shelters. As I noted earlier, people are still living in FEMA trailers in Florida since Hurricane Charlie last year.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Geezer- Let's look at the top three appointees in FEMA. The top three appointees to FEMA are political hacks (college roommates, drinking buddies and publicists) with no disaster response experience whatsoever. EDITED TO ADD: The former head of FEMA was no better- he was Bush's campaign manager. END EDIT What does that tell you about Bush's basic motivation? You seem to think this is just normal fuckup. But while levees were breaking and people were drowning, Bush continued in his meet-and-greet schedule, while Condi saw Spamalot and bought $3000 Ferragamo shoes, Cheney was on vacation, and Michael Brown... well, who knows what Michael Brown was doing? He was in over his head, figuratively.
You don't get it. You really think that these people care. But all you have to do is look at the bankruptcy bill, Bush's Social Security "reform", and his appointees to FDA and FEMA to realize that we are SO FAR DOWN on his priority list that anything else comes first.
So, do I think that these people get together in a cabal and think about ways to screw the average person in the United States? YEP. Absolutely... when it suits their needs, like the Iraq invasion. But mostly, they just really really really don't give a shit. This disaster was created by neglect... starting by w/drawing funds from levee construction, continuing with putting old college rommate's and publicist's need for a cozy government spot ahead of the life, health and welfare of the entire US population, and ending with the Commander in Chief being TOO BUSY eating cake, playing golf, and making speeches to actually attend to an unfolding disaster of historic proportions. So....
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Quote:
Quit dancing around the core issue folks.
Bush *is* in charge of the country.
This would mean it's his damned responsibility and he either abrogated it illegally, or simply screwed the pooch so badly it's hard to wrap one's mind around.
The buck stops there, he's IN CHARGE, at the top, and it's HIS JOB (you know, that we elect and pay him for?) to handle this kind of thing.
Geezer- And why hasn't he mowed my lawn? Or at least sent someone to do it.
This is trite beyond belief. You're so concerned for the dignity of the dead that you don't want photos, but you make this kind of trivializing and demeaning comment???? Wow, Geezer. You aren't the reasonable, caring, balanced person you think you are. You're just another mind-bent follower. And now everyone can see it. Except you.
Please don't think they give a shit.
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