So where is the opposition to Bush anyway ?
POSTED BY: GinoBiffaroni
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 02:11
VIEWED: 10908
PAGE 9 of 13
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
we think that the inadequacies are due to the unfortunately normal amount of mis-communication, mis-understanding, inefficiency, general Peter Principle management population, politics on all levels, from local to Federal, etc. A disaster much greater than anyone has actually faced just magnifies these faults. Planning only goes so far. Humans are only human and make mistakes.
You seem to think that it's a carefully planned evil plot, organized and directed by the White House alone, to do...something. I'm not quite sure what. Kill poor people, or black people, or poor black people? Prepare the way for a police state takeover of the country? Just generally screw things up then sit back with a martini and laugh?
Ad hominem aside,
Geezer, don't you see (I guess not...),
The truth is smack dab in between the two scenerios above!!!
The first absolves everyone, 'cause that's just the way it is.
The second says it's all according to an evil master plan.
And that's the way we keep playing it over and over here. 'We're' not saying what 'you' think we are, and possibly, 'you're' not saying what 'we' think you are.
If we can't just examine the facts (see RUE for those), I must conclude the arguments on this board are for entertainment purposes only, since it's obviously more fun to argue than to agree.
This is my last civil post if that's going to continue to be the case.
I will unleash Ad Homineman.
EDIT: I try to lean something here once in a while- you seem to want to do nothing but spew.
Reasonable Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer- Let's look at the top three appointees in FEMA. The top three appointees to FEMA are political hacks (college roommates, drinking buddies and publicists) with no disaster response experience whatsoever
From the FEMA site:
http://www.fema.gov/about/bios/bio.shtm
Under Secretary Brown has led Homeland Security’s response to more than 164 presidentially declared disasters and emergencies, including the 2003 Columbia Shuttle disaster and the California wildfires in 2003. In 2004, Mr. Brown led FEMA’s thousands of dedicated disaster workers during the most active hurricane season in over 100 years, as FEMA delivered aid more quickly and more efficiently than ever before.
Previously, Mr. Brown served as FEMA's Deputy Director and the agency's General Counsel. Shortly after the September 11th terrorist attacks, Mr. Brown served on the President's Consequence Management Principal's Committee, which acted as the White House's policy coordination group for the federal domestic response to the attacks. Later, the President asked him to head the Consequence Management Working Group to identify and resolve key issues regarding the federal response plan. In August 2002, President Bush appointed him to the Transition Planning Office for the new Department of Homeland Security, serving as the transition leader for the EP&R Division.
So Mr. Brown has been involved in emergency services at least since Sept. 2001, and had at least one entire hurricane season at the helm of FEMA.
Patrick James Rhode, Chief of staff, has a solid background in management and administration, which is pretty much a Chief of Staff's role, regardless of what the organization does.
Scott Morris, the Deputy Chief of Staff, filled that position in the Small Business Administration prior to moving to FEMA, so he's no rookie either.
And somehow I don't find it strange that a President would appoint people he knows and trusts, rather than complete strangers,to positions of authority.
Quote:
But while levees were breaking and people were drowning, he continued in his meet-and-greet schedule, while Condi saw Spamalot and bought $3000 Ferragamo shoes, Cheney was on vacation, and Michael Brown... well, who knows what Michael Brown was doing. He was in over his head, figuratively.
Leaving aside the hyperbole in this statement...we have telephones nowadays, and email, teleconferencing, cell phones, teletypes, etc. The President doesn't have to send dispatch riders from the White House stable any more. There is probably no one on earth more wired into the communications net than the President, no matter where he is. Condi is the Secretary of State. First response is not her job. She was active at least by Monday night (saw her speak on TV) after the storm.
Quote:
You don't get it. You really think that these people care.
Actually, yes I do.
Quote:
So, do I think that these people get together in a cabal and think about ways to screw the average person in the United States? YEP. Absolutely... when it suits their needs, like the Iraq invasion.
I disagree. I can't see how anyone could expect that the administration would expect anything good for them to come out of the Katrina disaster. The'y know that the press would be all over them no matter what they did.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:
Quit dancing around the core issue folks.
Bush *is* in charge of the country.
This would mean it's his damned responsibility and he either abrogated it illegally, or simply screwed the pooch so badly it's hard to wrap one's mind around.
The buck stops there, he's IN CHARGE, at the top, and it's HIS JOB (you know, that we elect and pay him for?) to handle this kind of thing.
Geezer- And why hasn't he mowed my lawn? Or at least sent someone to do it.
This is trite beyond belief. You're so concerned for the dignity of the dead that you don't want photos, but you make this kind of trivializing and demeaning comment???? Wow, Geezer. You aren't the reasonable, caring, balanced person you think you are. You're just another mind-bent follower. And now everyone can see it. Except you.
Please don't think they give a shit.
Good. Back to the normal insults.
Of all the bogusities bandied about here, the "The President's in charge so it's all his fault" is the most bogus. I was just pointing that out.
The President doesn't have unlimited powers (and you wouldn't want him to). He has to work within the constraints of our government, such as how much money he has to work with, what Congress allows him to do with it (Congress makes the laws, remember, and even if he has a majority by party, they don't always give him what he wants), and various rules and regulations.
He's also constrained from interfering with state and local governments except in certain strictly defined situations. Local pre-planning for disaster is a local and state responsibility, since they should know best their problems and resources.
Responsibility only comes with authority. If you don't have the authority, how can you be held responsible?
I find it strange that you want to give the person you don't think should be running the country direct power over the day to day operation of the country at every level.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:As far as Brown's experience as FEMA Counsel: We have "Counsel" in our organization. That does not prepare them to be CEO. Counsel is what keeps the CEO from getting in legal doo-doo, they have a limited duty, and they are prohibitive not proactive. The other appointees were all from "Tier C" positions... definitely NOT in FEMA's league.
So Mr. Brown has been "involved in" emergency services at least since Sept. 2001, and had at least one entire hurricane season at the helm of FEMA.
Quote:First of all- WHAT hyperbole? I was merely stating facts- Bush continued his schedule. Condi saw Spamalot and went shoe-shopping, Cheney was on vacation, and Brown was... wherever Brown was. The point of is was motivation, not duties and responsibility. A person who cares will be involved whether it's in their mandate or not. Just look at all the volunteers. Bush spent a total of 156 words on Katrina in a 16,900 speech (Word Count. A great invention!) in Arizona the day the levees broke. Wired?? He sure didn't appear to be. Just check out his schedule and his speeches. You just can't get any more disengaged than that, Geezer! Cheney? He was in his ranch in Montana. What do you think he would have done, if he really cared? Did he do anything at all? Same with Condi. If you're in a position of national authority, what would YOU be doing the day of a disaster? Gosh, I thought is was awfully nice of her to fit in a speech in-between shoe shopping and going to the theater! And then there is Barbara Bush... in no position of authority but whose attitude may have some influence on W Bush... the evacuees were underpriviledged anyway, they were far better off in the Astrodome!
Leaving aside the hyperbole in this statement...we have telephones nowadays, and email, teleconferencing, cell phones, teletypes, etc. The President doesn't have to send dispatch riders from the White House stable any more. There is probably no one on earth more wired into the communications net than the President, no matter where he is. Condi is the Secretary of State. First response is not her job. She was active at least by Monday night (saw her speak on TV) after the storm.
Quote:You missed the part where I said that I didn't think that this was a conspiracy to screw people, that it was very much a problem of neglect. It sure would be nice if you would STOP misquoting people! Can you please try to be more accurate? It's getting really annoying to have to constantly correct your deliberate misrepresentations.
So, do I think that these people get together in a cabal and think about ways to screw the average person in the United States? YEP. Absolutely... when it suits their needs, like the Iraq invasion. -Signy
I disagree. I can't see how anyone could expect that the administration would expect anything good for them to come out of the Katrina disaster. They know that the press would be all over them no matter what they did.- Geezer
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You missed the part where I said that I didn't think that this was a conspiracy to screw people, that it was very much a problem of neglect. It sure would be nice if you would STOP misquoting people! Can you please try to be more accurate? It's getting really annoying to have to constantly correct your deliberate misrepresentations.
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, do I think that these people get together in a cabal and think about ways to screw the average person in the United States? YEP. Absolutely... when it suits their needs, like the Iraq invasion. But mostly, they just really really really don't give a shit. This disaster was created by neglect... starting by w/drawing funds from levee construction, continuing with putting old college rommate's and publicist's need for a cozy government spot ahead of the life, health and welfare of the entire US population, and ending with the Commander in Chief being TOO BUSY eating cake, playing golf, and making speeches to actually attend to an unfolding disaster of historic proportions. So....
So the neglect you accuse them of, which you claim screwed a bunch op people, wasn't part of any plan, just incompetence?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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No, it's a matter of priorities. Why is it so hard for you to make that distinction? There are incompetent people who care, people who care who ARE competent, and people who are competent but don't care. Bush IMHO is an idiot. He doesn't care AND he's incompetent. But many in the administration (Rove, Cheney, Rice) are very competent... brilliant in fact. They just don't care. They REALLY don't care. They have so many other things in their lists of priorities that are ahead of the average American that as far as I can tell we're pretty nuch just a resource for their other plans.
I added this to my previous post, I'll repeat it here: "First of all- WHAT hyperbole? I was merely stating facts- Bush continued his schedule. Condi saw Spamalot and went shoe-shopping, Cheney was on vacation, and Brown was... wherever Brown was. The point of is was motivation {and priorities} not duties and responsibility. A person who cares will be involved whether it's in their mandate or not. Just look at all the volunteers. But Bush spent a total of 156 words on Katrina in a 16,900 speech (Word Count. A great invention!) in Arizona the day the levees broke. Wired?? He sure didn't appear to be. Just check out his schedule and his speeches. You just can't get any more disengaged than that, Geezer! Cheney? He was in his ranch in Montana. What do you think he would have done, if he really cared? Did he do anything at all? Same with Condi. If you're in a position of national authority, what would YOU be doing the day of a disaster? Gosh, I thought is was awfully nice of her to fit in a speech in-between shoe shopping and going to the theater! And then there is Barbara Bush... in no position of authority but whose attitude may have some influence on W Bush... the evacuees were underpriviledged anyway, they were far better off in the Astrodome!"
What I see is an Administration doing the MINIMUM to stay out of political trouble. Throwing out crumbs late and under pressure. This is not a picture of an Administration that has a great deal of concern for the American people. So...
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Ad hominem aside,
Geezer, don't you see (I guess not...),
The truth is smack dab in between the two scenerios above!!!
The first absolves everyone, 'cause that's just the way it is.
The second says it's all according to an evil master plan.
And that's the way we keep playing it over and over here. 'We're' not saying what 'you' think we are, and possibly, 'you're' not saying what 'we' think you are.
The way I see it, the first says that people screwed up and we need to improve for next time. Several of "we" have agreed that investigations do need to be made and lessons learned implemented.
As to the second, when I see statements like this:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
What if this whole disaster fiasco is a test of how much control can be forced upon us?
Is it too much to believe?
Turning away help, coming down on pilots and crew of ships that pick up survivors because that wasn't their orders? Turning away firefighters from other states, because this is a FEMA operation?
When is the 'United States Police Force' gonna be formed, tomorrow? Military control of the whole shebang, that's what I see.
Or:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, do I think that these people get together in a cabal and think about ways to screw the average person in the United States? YEP. Absolutely... when it suits their needs, like the Iraq invasion.
it gives me a pretty strong inpression that you might be in the "evil plan" camp.
I suspect a lot of this is an expression of emotion and the rather free-wheeling give-and-take of the internet. I would hope that if we sat face to face, and could pick up those subtle cues that expression and body language provide, we'd be less divided.
In the end, I think we all want to get to the same place, a better response the next time an event like Katrina occurs. We just see different routes to that place.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Geezer, you keep taking my statements out of context. Will you PLEASE show some honesty, if not courtesy, and place my quotes in the context where they belong??? So I'll repeat myself- YES, the Administration WILL go out of it's way.. HAS gone out of its way... to screw the average American. But Katrina was not one of those instances. Just...
Please don't think they give a shit.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, you keep taking my statements out of context.
In the lexicon, under "The pot calling the kettle black" they should have the above quote.
Time for the Redskins game. Back later.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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As far as me doing the same- show me, dude. At your convenience.