The Battle for Iraq - Ethnic Cleansing
POSTED BY: Ghoulman
UPDATED: Sunday, June 22, 2025 01:22
VIEWED: 23789
PAGE 16 of 18
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Specifically re Falluja, given the instructions they received, it's not surprising US troops shot women and children in the back, or shot a wounded, unarmed Iraqi on-camera. Technically speaking, anyone in Falluja, and any male, fighting and equipped or not, was to be considered an insurgent, and shot. Could these orders be responsible for blurring the line between combattant and civilian? Between enemy and prisoner? Between an illegal act and a legal one?
For Geezer & Co: Do ya maybe think?
First, do you have any evidence of "Specifically re Falluja, given the instructions they received, it's not surprising US troops shot women and children in the back..." aside from an unsupported statement in a Commondreams article? Commondreams might not be the most unbiased source for that type of information.
But, anyway...
The more I read the Geneva Protocol of 1949, the more I realize that the insurgency has, by policy, violated just about any provision they are able to. They target civilians, they take and kill hostages, they torture and kill prisoners of war, they kill the wounded, they fortify and fight from mosques, hospitals, schools, and other protected areas, they do not try to limit the risk to civilians of their attacks, They do not wear uniform or some type of identification that they are combatants, they booby trap their dead and wounded, they feign incapacitation for the purpose of deception, they employ children as combatants, they attack humanitarian organizations such as the Red Cross, and on and on.
The Geneva Conventions and Protocols, the Hague Conventions, and the common rules of war all generally assume that both sides are at least going to make some attempt to play by the rules. They require both sides to play by the rules. Unfortunately, this is out the window in Iraq, since the insurgency doesn't go along. This leaves the coalition in the unenviable position of having to obey the rules as well as they can, without allowing the non-conforming insurgents the ability to slaughter them wholesale by use if illegal tactics. Coalition policy is formed by trying to walk this tightrope. They can't operate in a vaccuum. They have to react to the tactics of their opponents.
This is something the insurgents learn on the first day of Insurgency 101. Get as many civilians killed as you can. Cause as much destruction of protected structures as you can. Blame it on the enemy. Anyone who is against the war will ignore your greater transgessions and accuse your enemy of war crimes, brutality, etc. Seems to work, doesn't it?
I asked before and got no answer. Should the Iraqi insurgents, who by their policy routinely violate most the conventions of war, be accused of war crimes? Shouldn't both sides be held equally accountable for their actions? Should the fact that some questionable actions of the coalition are defenses against prior illegal actions by the insurgents be considered a mitigating circumstance?
So. I answered your questions. Want to answer these, or just, to quote Signym, "dodge and weave"?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
...for example, U.S. troops refused to allow males of "military-age" (16 to 55)-- defining them all as potential enemy combatants--to flee Falluja.
Couple of things about this.
First mention of this I can find in news reports have a dateline of 11/13, four days into the offensive into Fallujah. Civilians were warned well in advance to get out of town, so it's not like all military-age men in Fallujah were corralled for slaughter. After repeated warnings for non-combatants to leave, any military age man still in town could justifiably be considered a combatant, or an idiot.
Once again, the insurgent's tactics inform coalition policy. The insurgents have a habit of removing any identifying clothing or insignia and mixing with the population to carry out their attacks (a clear violation of the Geneva Protocol, BTW). They also cache arms so they can pass checkpoints posing as unarmed civilians and then re-arm for attacks in the coalition rear. Not letting possible combatants into your rear areas in a combat zone is perfectly acceptable policy.
The men, either insurgents or those dumb enough to stay behind, were warned as they were turned back to stay off the streets and take shelter. This was about all the coalition could do under the circumstances to improve their odds.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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^^^ Geezer, is there any fact, picture, or person who's opinion you will accept other than the White Houses?
Why do you protect the right wing mainstream POV even in the face of clearly informed opinions and facts presented here?
Since you are so good at coming up with opinions (usually links to mainstream media stories) that are so afield, and RUE and Signym have countered so completely imho, that perhaps we could help your enlightenment if we knew of the source for your laser straight support of bombing, torture, murder, kidnapping, lies, fear, intimidation, and all that good stuff the White House has inflicted upon the Earth?
After all, this thread had been about the crime that is the flattening of Fallujah in a criminal military attack by the USA that made Jenin look peaceful. What evidence is there to the contrary? None... but here you are, still insisting... something. What are you defending here? Who?
Oh, and try to make your links a little less go sei, dong ma? 
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Quote:I first heard about the interdiction of Falluja on ITN and BBC, weeks before it was attacked. I next heard the instructions given to troops as it was being given to them by their CO on network news (perhaps ABC). I next heard about civilians being shot, in the back, as they tried to cross the river, on ITN. That's what alerted me to these facts. I spent not much time looking for a link to reference just to have something to post, so you'd realize I wasn't just dreaming it up. But hey, Geezer, perhaps you only watch FOX. Perhaps you can't do an internet search. In that case, I can understand why you'd be so ignorant.
First, do you have any evidence of "Specifically re Falluja, given the instructions they received, it's not surprising US troops shot women and children in the back..." aside from an unsupported statement in a Commondreams article? Commondreams might not be the most unbiased source for that type of information.
The first thing I'd like for you to explain is why, after a quick and relatively easy takeover, were US troops shooting at women and children at checkpoints? After that we can discuss about IHL and who broke the rules first.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:Quote:I first heard about the interdiction of Falluja on ITN and BBC, weeks before it was attacked. I next heard the instructions given to troops as it was being given to them by their CO on network news (perhaps ABC). I next heard about civilians being shot, in the back, as they tried to cross the river, on ITN. That's what alerted me to these facts. I spent not much time looking for a link to reference just to have something to post, so you'd realize I wasn't just dreaming it up. But hey, Geezer, perhaps you only watch FOX. Perhaps you can't do an internet search. In that case, I can understand why you'd be so ignorant.
First, do you have any evidence of "Specifically re Falluja, given the instructions they received, it's not surprising US troops shot women and children in the back..." aside from an unsupported statement in a Commondreams article? Commondreams might not be the most unbiased source for that type of information.
I had looked on the BBC and AP web archives and didn't see anything about this. I'll go around again and include the ITN site. No reason to be insulting, Rue.
Quote:
The first thing I'd like for you to explain is why, after a quick and relatively easy takeover, were US troops shooting at women and children at checkpoints?
We went over parts of this once before, but here it is again. Without being given a specific situation, I can't give a specific answer. I can guess that the change to a more agressive response at checkpoints occurred after the insurgency started using suicide car and strap-on bombs. I know that some women and children were killed in cars that failed to stop and sped up when approaching a checkpoint, just like a suicide bomber would do. Others on foot were killed when they were told to stop and continued to advance towards armed men, like a suicide bomber with a strap-on device would do. Civilians in a war zone can't reasonably expect to be treated as non-combatants when they don't act like non-combatants. Of course, if the insurgents were playing by the rules of war, this would be a moot point.
Quote:
After that we can discuss about IHL and who broke the rules first.
You mean you can tell me again about how this is an illegal and immoral war? I do you the courtesy of attempting to directly answer your questions. You may not like the answers, but I consider that a disagreement, not dissembling. Please answer mine in the same way.
For your convenience, here they are again.
1. Should the Iraqi insurgents, who by their policy routinely violate most the conventions of war, be accused of war crimes?
2. Shouldn't both sides be held equally accountable for their actions?
3. Should the fact that some questionable actions of the coalition are defenses against prior illegal actions by the insurgents be considered a mitigating circumstance?
Yes/No answers are perfectly acceptable. In fact, a Yes or No answer followed by a justification would be appreciated.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
After repeated warnings for non-combatants to leave, any military age man still in town could justifiably be considered a combatant, or an idiot.
American military culture is essentially nomadic. This is no accident. For a an entire culture to be conditioned to the routine extermination of other human beings, it is important to undermine any connectivity outside of the "band of brothers." Connection to the land is virtually unknown to the "military brats" I've known. The majority of American's, as a whole, have little concept of such connections. How many generations can any of us go back on this land? 4? 10? 20? Americans move, what on an average, every 4 years? People in Iraq can trace their connection to the land back literally 1000's of years and hundreds of generations. Tyrants come and go, but the land is theirs forever. So, America comes in and says get out of town or die. And a lot of people stay, out of the only kind of patriotism that means anything and you call them "idiots." Shame on you. Furthermore, since when does being an "idiot" justify your murder?
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
After repeated warnings for non-combatants to leave, any military age man still in town could justifiably be considered a combatant, or an idiot.
American military culture is essentially nomadic. This is no accident. For a an entire culture to be conditioned to the routine extermination of other human beings, it is important to undermine any connectivity outside of the "band of brothers." Connection to the land is virtually unknown to the "military brats" I've known. The majority of American's, as a whole, have little concept of such connections. How many generations can any of us go back on this land? 4? 10? 20? Americans move, what on an average, every 4 years? People in Iraq can trace their connection to the land back literally 1000's of years and hundreds of generations. Tyrants come and go, but the land is theirs forever. So, America comes in and says get out of town or die. And a lot of people stay, out of the only kind of patriotism that means anything and you call them "idiots." Shame on you. Furthermore, since when does being an "idiot" justify your murder?
You've obviously never talked to a Southerner about the War of Northern Aggression. My great-grandfather fought the invasion of his land by the Yankees. But he was a combatant and knew the risks. And no, he never owned slaves. Just a small farmer. My family still lives on his land.
In the case of Fallujah, anyone who stayed in town after warnings to get out for their own safety, and who wasn't planning on fighting, was an idiot. They would be in danger from the coalition, who expected the enemy, based on prior experience, to dress as civilians and try to sucker them in. They would also be in danger from the insurgents, who would shoot anyone they didn't know. Staying in town and not being on one side or the other, and especially going out on the streets instead of staying under cover, is just Darwin in action. I don't question their patriotism, just their good sense.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Want to answer these, or just, to quote Signym, "dodge and weave"?
My comment was in respnse to this. You COULD have just asked the question and left it at that, but then, you just HAD to take a swipe. So I returned the favor.
It's late, it's that crazy time of year between Thanksgiving and New Year, and aside from a busy job, there's the family and all that entails. I'll be back, but much later.
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Geezer, this is just about as comprehensive a post as I'm going to make on the art of dodging and weaving. But first, let me say that the best summary I can make of your Real World posts is to defend George W Bush and his administration at all costs, using all means necessary. WHY you would want to do that, I'm not sure...
ON THE USA ELECTIONS
Without ever directly addressing the problems of paperless voting or exit poll discrepancies (dodge) you issue virtual dope slaps (VDS) to anyone who questions the election's validity. (weave) When it becomes obvious that right-wing Hero deserves the VDS award, you drop the subject entirely (dodge). In another thread (Ukraine elections) you once again divert attention from the USA vote/ tabulation problems and push your point about the efficacy of demonstrations. (weave) Nowhere do you ever really address our election issues. (dodge)
ON THE ISSUE OF WMD
You continue to assert that Bush' administration made a mistake, w/o ever directly discrediting the numerous direct and contradictory quotes (dodge) from Bush and his administration.
When the issue comes up again, without EVER addressing the topic directly (did Saddam have WMD) you quote a Vanguard article, conflating WMD with WMD programs with WMD program components. When called on it, you basically made fun of the distinction, then you say "well I was just wondering why it was linked" (weave). In that same thread, you pointed to the "20 tons of Sarin and blister agents" in Jordan, which was shown pointed out to be an egregious mis-statement, at which point you dropped the topic (dodge).
You attributed the war to "bad intelligence" without ever addressing why the Bush administration punished the one clear instance of reliable intelligence (yellowcake uranium) by "outing" the CIA wife of the ambassador who provided it. (Which, as I keep pointing out, is TREASON). (dodge, w/ extra points for sheer brass)
ON THE IRAQ WAR, AND THE MILITARY'S HIDING OF CIVILIAN DEATHS
You repeateldy imply or assert that "they started it" (insurgent war crimes) without ever acknowledging the fact that EVERYTHING about this war: the rationale, timing, strategy and tactics- was COMPLETELY at OUR discretion. In other words- WE started it.
Despite the fact that you repeatedly point to evidence of "their" (Iraqi) wrongdoing, you are COMPLETELY silent on the torture of prisoners in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Gitmo (major dodge) and the fact that military intelligence threatened FBI agents on the topic.
You point over and over again to the IBC's "estimate" as reliable, when even the IBC states that they are neither an estimate (they are a validated count) nor are they reliable (they are biased low- please read their home page). You link to an article that has a pic of Naomi Klein w/ a mustache for "fun"(weave) but despite repeatedly dimissing the concept of a right-wing conspiracy, you apparently have NO response to her detailed article about the complete interdiction of news from Fallujah. (dodge)
Instead, as "proof" of the military's transparency in the area, you link to an article about how the Iraqi Red Crescent was allowed in, (weave) but remain completely silent when they were kicked out five days later. (dodge) You have also remained silent on the IRC's estimate of over 6000 dead. (dodge, with points for style)
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Overall, in your choice of topics and approach, I find that you deliberately mislead and misdirect discussion w/o ever addressing the MAJOR points of concern, all (apparently) in the interests of defending Bush by any means possible. It's hard for me to imagine that someone can do this all subconsciously, but if this is all really not deliberate, I think you'd better give your subconscious a good talking-to! (In fact, you prolly should enlist some help, since your subconscious mind would appear to be totally in control at this point)
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SignyM. Well, you do have an interesting version of things. It may take me a while to find all the things I disagree with about this post.
I did want to note that in the Voting Fraud post Hardware and I had a short discussion of voting methods and the fact that it's the people who runs the system, not the machines, that make it acceptable or not. Otherwise I didn't have much to say about it either way. Hardly a defense of Bush.
The VDS was to both Hero and Ghoulman for being so nasty, not for any particular stand. I said: "Nice1. Great way to take some gentle joshing between sides and twist it into another insult fest. Please consider yourselves the recipients of non-partisan virtual dope-slaps." Poor Unicorn was the recipient of collateral damage.
The Ukraine post was a serious question about the diference in methods of the Ukranian opposition and the Democrats here. From the results in Ukraine, it does appear that massive peaceful protest does work better than lawyers and internet innuendo.
The rest may take a while.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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