The Battle for Iraq - Ethnic Cleansing

POSTED BY: Ghoulman
UPDATED: Sunday, June 22, 2025 01:22
VIEWED: 23789
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AURAPTOR

Sunday, December 12, 2004 8:46 PM

Had the intent been to ethnically cleans Fallujah, there would have been no fore- warning. No attempt to get women and children out before fighting started. Had it REALLY been the goal, a few well placed Daisy Cutters would have been dropped and that would have been the end of Fallujah.

Would be refreshing if you spread your hate filled , anti- American , baseless propaganda somewhere else.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

SIGNYM

Monday, December 13, 2004 3:41 AM

Baseless? How do you know it's baseless if you don't know what happening in Fallujah? The only thing I find baseless here are your assumptions.

"... it's also the news behind the non-news"

SIGNYM

Monday, December 13, 2004 10:49 AM

This is a test of my emailer.

GEEZER

Monday, December 13, 2004 12:55 PM

TIme enough this morning for another one or two.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
ON THE ISSUE OF WMD
You continue to assert that Bush' administration made a mistake, w/o ever directly discrediting the numerous direct and contradictory quotes (dodge) from Bush and his administration.
When the issue comes up again, without EVER addressing the topic directly (did Saddam have WMD) you quote a Vanguard article, conflating WMD with WMD programs with WMD program components. When called on it, you basically made fun of the distinction, then you say "well I was just wondering why it was linked" (weave). In that same thread, you pointed to the "20 tons of Sarin and blister agents" in Jordan, which was shown pointed out to be an egregious mis-statement, at which point you dropped the topic (dodge).

You attributed the war to "bad intelligence" without ever addressing why the Bush administration punished the one clear instance of reliable intelligence (yellowcake uranium) by "outing" the CIA wife of the ambassador who provided it. (Which, as I keep pointing out, is TREASON). (dodge, w/ extra points for sheer brass)

I've said my say on WMD, and don't plan to search through months of threads, so if you want to consider the fact that I disagree with you dodging and weaving, go right ahead. I have noted that the disclosure of Valerie Plame's status was illegal, and that an investigation is ongoing. I hope that it bears fruit. I'd just rather wait for due process than form a lynch mob.

Quote:
ON THE IRAQ WAR, AND THE MILITARY'S HIDING OF CIVILIAN DEATHS
You repeateldy imply or assert that "they started it" (insurgent war crimes) without ever acknowledging the fact that EVERYTHING about this war: the rationale, timing, strategy and tactics- was COMPLETELY at OUR discretion. In other words- WE started it.

Wrong. I state directly that the insurgency uses tactics that violate the rules of war as part of their policy, and that the coalition response is informed by this. This is true regardless of who started the war. As I noted previously, (boy, I say that a lot. Why is that, I wonder?) all sides in a conflict are required to conform to the rules of war. The coalition is at least making an attempt. The insurgency is not.

Quote:
Despite the fact that you repeatedly point to evidence of "their" (Iraqi) wrongdoing, you are COMPLETELY silent on the torture of prisoners in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Gitmo (major dodge) and the fact that military intelligence threatened FBI agents on the topic.

Wrong again. I've noted several times that people are being prosecuted for and convicted of war crimes, and that I approve of this. Once again, I prefer to allow due process to work, rather than looking for a rope and a strong tree limb.

Quote:
You point over and over again to the IBC's "estimate" as reliable, when even the IBC states that they are neither an estimate (they are a validated count) nor are they reliable (they are biased low- please read their home page).

You have an amazing ability to read selectively. I believe I have noted the IBC statement that their estimates were conservative. There are many estimates out there, and I find their methodology the best. The other point I've been hitting about casualties is how quickly the Lancet report went from all casualties to just innocent women and children killed by the evil coalition. Now that was some creative editing.

Quote:
You link to an article that has a pic of Naomi Klein w/ a mustache for "fun"(weave) but despite repeatedly dimissing the concept of a right-wing conspiracy, you apparently have NO response to her detailed article about the complete interdiction of news from Fallujah. (dodge)

I wasn't actually involved in the Naomi Klein discussion. After SgtGump's suggestion about Ms. Klein, I went looking for a picture of her, just to see what she looked like, and found that one funny. Sorry that

SIGNYM

Monday, December 13, 2004 4:23 PM

Quote:
Sorry, I happen to believe in old-fashioned things like innocent until proven guilty, and due process.

You believe in "innocent until proven guilty" in SOME situations (Bush admin wrongdoing) but not in others (ie. the rest of the world). When Rue posted in detail the admin statements showing they lied about WMD, you plugged your ears and ran away going la-la-la-la. I will post your quotes later.

You were ready to "convict" of WMD Saddam on the basis of NO evidence. Ready enough to justify invading Iraq and all those civilian deaths. But when the admin has clearly committed treason, you want to wait until the gavel hits the bench before reacting.

You are ready to peg all sorts of atrocities on "the insurgents" but unwilling to notice that the USA military makes a GREAT effort to hide their own policy-based atrocities (dead-checking, torture, w/holding humanitarian aide) and the casualties that result therefrom. (Casualties, I might add, that far outstrip either Saddam's or the insurgents'. See the IBC website.) So, on the basis of selected information (selected for you by the Military) you are willing to believe that we're good guys just doing the best we can.

I could go on but I don't have the time right now. Suffice it to say that you have a CLEAR double standard. You bring a magnifying glass and a resistant approach to some things, but not to the nice comfortable stories about the Bush admin. I will demonstrate this in detail later, because that double standard undercuts your claim to being "just a skeptic".

If you can't see that double standard, then I can't help you. So go and reflect on your approach to issues of the day, weigh and measure your response to see if they balance.

And don't forget to have a nice day!

GEEZER

Monday, December 13, 2004 5:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You believe in "innocent until proven guilty" in SOME situations (Bush admin wrongdoing) but not in others (ie. the rest of the world). When Rue posted in detail the admin statements showing they lied about WMD, you plugged your ears and ran away going la-la-la-la. I will post your quotes later.

You were ready to "convict" of WMD Saddam on the basis of NO evidence. Ready enough to justify invading Iraq and all those civilian deaths. But when the admin has clearly committed TREASON, you want to wait until the gavel hits the bench before reacting.

Nope. Saddam was considered an imminent threat and was accused and arrested, not convicted. He'll actually get a trial and I expect that the WMD evidence fiasco and other intelligence screwups will come up in that.

I prefer that due process be involved in the Plune case because I can't think of a better solution. What would you propose instead? Shoot 'em all and let God sort 'em out?

p.s. You forgot to capitalize, bold and underline "treason" above, so I took care of that for you.

Quote:
You are ready to peg all sorts of atrocities on "the insurgents" but unwilling to notice that the USA military makes a GREAT effort to hide their own policy-based atrocities (dead-checking, torture, w/holding humanitarian aide) and the casualties that result therefrom. (Casualties, I might add, that far outstrip either Saddam's or the insurgents'. See the IBC website.) So, on the basis of selected information (selected for you by the Military) you are willing to believe that we're good guys just doing the best we can.

I'm not pegging any atrocities on the insurgents. They proudly and loudly claim them. I'm not sure how you managed to miss this. I also note that American soldiers involved in often much less atrocious atrocities are being tried and convicted, as they should be. It's all over the news. Again, you don't want to wait for a trial. You've decided they're all guilty, and are ready to pass judgment.

As to the IBC site, If you'll scan the database, you'll see that most civilian casualties attributed to the coalition where incurred during the early phases of the invasion, in military operations against the former regime army. Once the military phase ended and the occupation phase began, about a year ago, most of the deaths were attributable to car bombs, assassinations, IEDs, etc. used by the insurgents. Many of these were directly targeted at civilians.

Quote:
I could go on but I don't have the time right now. Suffice it to say that you have a CLEAR double standard. You bring a magnifying glass and a resistant approach to some things, but not to the nice comfortable stories about the Bush admin. I will demonstrate this in detail later, because that double standard undercuts your claim to being "just a skeptic".

If you can't see that double standard, then I can't help you. So go and reflect on your approach to issues of the day, weigh and measure your response to see if they balance.

And don't forget to have a nice day!

Where as you are always totally impartial and look at all sides of any issue before forming an opinion. You also infallably know right from wrong and who is innocent and who is guilty. Neat trick. Ever though of running for God?

Oh, and are Iraqi insurgents who, as declared policy, violate all the conventions of war, guilty of war crimes?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Monday, December 13, 2004 6:48 PM

Quote:
I'm not pegging any atrocities on the insurgents. They proudly and loudly claim them. I'm not sure how you managed to miss this. I also note that American soldiers involved in often much less atrocious atrocities are being tried and convicted, as they should be. It's all over the news. Again, you don't want to wait for a trial. You've decided they're all guilty, and are ready to pass judgment.

Well, you brought this up so this will be a good example of what I'm talking about.

Quote:
Oh, and are Iraqi insurgents who, as declared policy, violate all the conventions of war, guilty of war crimes

In your mind "they" have a policy of beheadings, direct military-style attacks, suicide bombings, mingling with the population, IEDs aimed at security forces... "their" war crimes deserve condemnation and justify "our" war crimes. Am I mischaracterizing your response?

But some of the insurgents don't participate in beheadings and suicide bombings- al Sadr, for example. In fact, it's widely acknowledged that the largest and most coordinated suicide bombings are committed by foreigners. If you look at the "locals", they tend to focus on combat troops and security forces using IEDs, RPGs, small-arms fire. Of course, they DO tend to mingle with the civilian population- possibly because they actually happen to live there and don't have the luxury of separate barracks, arms depots and command posts. But our reponse is to apply equal opprobrium (and gunfire) to all. Of course, you would say that it is impractical to separate foreign elements from local combatants from plain civilians. I should realize and so should everyone that war is rough justice, and obviously because of "their" war crimes, they deserve this war and this justice. "Innocent until proven guilty" just doesn't apply, even to civilians whose only "crime" is to live in a nation that was "believed" to have WMD. (I'll get to that later.)

Now when it comes to OUR misdeeds, you are only to ready to parse things in detail. "We" don't have a policy of torturing and killing prisoners. "We" don't kill civilians indiscriminately. "We" respect the Geneva Convention and human rights wherever possible. Where we don't, it's circumstances beyond our control, the cruel necessities of war, response to their war cimes etc. It's unfair to characterize "us" as being war criminals because of a few rogue soldiers who will be tried and found guilty.

Of course, the memo from Alberto Gonzales to Bush detailing how "we" can get away with torture, allegations and physical evidence from released detainees, complaints from (and MI threats against) the FBI, complaints from JAG, refusal to allow IRC inpsection, torture planes, pictures, and death certificates point to nothing more than just a few poorly trained underlings who will be duly punished. "We" care deeply for civilian life, which is why we interdicted Falluhjah and prevented the delivery of humanitarian aide by outside agencies (and also the outflow of information) after the city was secured. "We" respect the rules of war, which is why we don't have instructions of "dead checking" with a bullet.

For you, none of this is proof of anything. In fact, there is no evidence good enough to even raise a question in your mind as to whether the administration is fully committed to the Geneva Convention and human rights. Or, if there is a question is should be tried in a court of law with all due process. A court and process you are not willing to allow Iraqis (combatants OR civilains) and detainees. Our war crimes don't even rank moral outrage, as impotent as that might be.

This is what I mean by a double standard.

BTW- I believe I implicity answered your question about war crimes.

GEEZER

Monday, December 13, 2004 7:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

You peg atrocties on ALL the insurgents. In your mind "they" are all equally guilty of all the same crimes. "They" have a policy of beheadings, direct military-style attacks, suicide bombings, mingling with the population, IEDs aimed at security forces... And "their" war crimes justify "our" war crimes. Am I mischaracterizing your response?

Slightly. I was thinking more of the insurgents formerly headquartered in Fallujah, since that was the topic of this thread. Specifically those allied with al Queda, such as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's forces. The ones claiming responsibility for the car bomb that killed seven Iraqi civilians in Bagdhad today.

Quote:
But some of the insurgents don't participate in beheadings and suicide bombings- al Sadr, for example.

Aside from the "Religious Court" in Najif containing a few dead bodies, al Sadr has been playing by the rules pretty well.

Quote:
In fact, it's widely acknowledged that the largest and most coordinated suicide bombings are committed by foreigners.

But a little while everyone was saying that there are hardly any foreign fighters in Iraq at all. So which is it?

Quote:
If you look at the "locals", they tend to focus on combat troops and security forces using IEDs, RPGs, small-arms fire.

If so, they're not doing too good a job, as they tend to kill mostly civilians.

Quote:
Of course, they DO tend to mingle with the civilian population- possibly because they actually happen to live there and don't have the luxury of separate barracks, arms depots and command posts. Of course, you would say that it is impractical to separate our response to foreign elements from local combatants from plain civilians. I should realize and so should everyone that war is rough justice, and obviously they "deserve" this war and this justice.

Mingling is one thing. Using them as cover is another.

Quote:
Now when it comes to OUR misdeeds, you are only to ready to parse things in detail. "We" don't have a policy of torturing and killing prisoners. "We" don't kill civilians indiscriminately. "We" respect the Geneva Convention and human rights wherever possible. Where we don't, it's circumstances beyond our control, the cruel necessities of war, response to their war cimes etc. It's unfair to characterize "us" as being war criminals because of a few rogue soldiers who will be tried and found guilty.

Well, you got that part right. Sorry that I don't believe that our troops are baby eating monsters out to kill everything they can. If they were, they're not doing a very good job either, given their numbers and firepower.

Quote:
Of course, the memo from Alberto Gonzales to Bush detailing how "we" can get away with torture, allegations and physical evidence from released detainees, complaints from (and MI threats against) the FBI, complaints from JAG, refusal to allow IRC inpsection, torture planes, pictures, and death certificates point to nothing more than just a few poorly trained underlings who will be duly punished. "We" care deeply for civilian life, which is why we interdicted Falluhjah and prevented the delivery of humanitarian aide by outside agencies (and also the outflow of information) after the city was secured. "We" respect the rules of war, which is why we don't have instructions of "dead checking" with a bullet.

There's those words in my mouth again.

Quote:
For you, none of this is proof of anything. In fact, there is no evidence good enough to even raise a question in your mind as to whether the administration is fully committed to the Geneva Convention and human rights. Or, if there is a question is should be tried in a court of law with all due process.
A court and process you are not willing to allow Iraqis (combatants OR civilains) and detainees.

This is what I mean by a double standard.

Anyone charged with war crimes should be tried. I'm not particularly happy abou

GEEZER

Monday, December 13, 2004 7:39 PM

This thread has gotten so big it takes forever to load on my computer. What say we either start a new Ethnic Cleansing thread or take this to another existing one?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Monday, December 13, 2004 7:44 PM

Quote:
Anyone charged with war crimes should be tried... So, Should Iraqi insurgents who commit acts contrary to the Geneva Protocols be accused of and tried for war crimes? Or are your accusations only for coalition forces?.

I believe I answered your last question. The answer is, "Yes, of course". That includes Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld, as well as Zarqawi and bin Laden. If we were to tally up the number of civilian dead each was responsible for, who do you think would "win"?

FYI- I ALSO don't think our troops are baby eating monsters. (There's those words in my mouth again!) I'm pegging the responsibility much, much further up.

BTW, altho you have addressed the detainee issue, you have avoided (dodged?) the whole interdiction of Fallujah and the expulsion of the Iraqi Red Crscent several times.

I will have to take this up post-holiday.

Happy holidays to you all!

EDITED TO ADD: New thread- good idea!

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