The Battle for Iraq - Ethnic Cleansing
POSTED BY: Ghoulman
UPDATED: Sunday, June 22, 2025 01:22
VIEWED: 23789
PAGE 9 of 18
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It doesn't take Einstein to count up the number of women and children's bodies that you can casually see. I'll bet there was AT LEAST ONE.
Well, there was that one Caucasian woman, found shot in the head and mutilated, but you wouldn't care about that, since the evil Americans didn't do it.
Come on. You know that the news media worldwide are just champing at the bit, wanting to report civilian casualty figures. If they got even an inkling from any source at all, cell phone call, eye-witness, escaping insurgent, it would be all over the news. I haven't seen it yet.
I'm sorry, but we are currently unable to provide you with a bunch of dead Fallujahn women and children so you can have the pleasure of railing against the horrible US war machine. Wouldn't you be brokenhearted if there weren't many and it spoiled all your righteous indignation?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
Geezer,
I wish you would stop confusing the issue by omitting information and giving incomplete examples to your own advantage!!!!
Are you referencing the Caucasian woman who was running the Iraqi Care facility, who was an Iraqi citizen and had spent the last 30 years helping the Iraqi people who was shot in the head while being videotaped for the visual consumption of the rest of the world?
Or are you refering to the unidentified blond Caucasion woman who was found recently in Fallujah DISEMBOWELED and with her arms and legs cut off that was thrown into the street?
and 
Which one Geezer, Which one? Lets try to be accurate here!!!!!
Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.
BarnStormer
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Quote:
Originally posted by debiji:
... SNIP! ...
And I see no evidence of "ethnic cleansing". If it exists, I would like to see it. Please post sources. If you do not like to post webpages, then please post whatever cites you have, including personal communication. My access to paper editions of English language newspapers and journals is limited, but I will do the best I can.
Respectfully,
debiji
I think you make great points and I'm not going to jump up and try to convince you of what I believe, because that's all it is.
The only truth I know for sure is that all information coming out of Iraq is controlled by the US Military and the White House. OK, pretty much the White House - and any opinion about what is actually going on in Iraq can only be called speculation.
So let's agree on that. Thus you will not find me posting links. This is comming from ME. I don't have evidence, just precedent.
Our beliefs differ a lot.
My position is that the US is not trust worthy. The US in Iraq has proven itself to be criminal, so when I suspect the US of criminal activity such as raising an entire city I can't think of a reason to believe the US would not.
Criminal acts are the legacy of the USA in Iraq.
Now, the way Fallujah has been bombed and shot up since April, APRIL (!)... lends me to believe there isn't anything left. This is how Iraq is going? I think your above assurtions of US help for Fallujah are meat for the CNN grill and people like you who need to be reasured the US is a nation of good people and values instead of the reality of murder, torture, rape... etc.
You believe, if I may, the USA couldn't possibly murder, torture, or declare an entire nation of people "terrorists" or "insurgents" and simply bomb them to death, sending soldiers on Vietnam style "search and destroy" missions.
But I believe it. The US has done it before.
See, we in other countries are respected because we don't go around lieing, killing, and torturing people.. bad foriegn policy thing. Something Bush/Cheney don't give a tiny pink rat's arse about.
Time will prove ...
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Quote:
I'm sorry, but we are currently unable to provide you with a bunch of dead Fallujahn women and children so you can have the pleasure of railing against the horrible US war machine. Wouldn't you be brokenhearted if there weren't many and it spoiled all your righteous indignation?
Well Geezer, there are already plenty to fuel righteous indignation. Unless, of course, you don't care.
So, to recap the points on which we agree-
The US did NOT take the Falujah hospital to "save lives".
The insurgents are NOT primarily(per military statements) or even necessarily "headed by" (unsupported assumption) foreigners.
When dealing with an insurgency comingled with a population, it is "undoable" to kill only the "bad guys". (Geezer, you said this yourself)
The US Army at this point does not have ANY civilian casualties to report.
Are we agreed so far?
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Well Geezer, there are already plenty to fuel righteous indignation. Unless, of course, you don't care.
Actually, I do care. I hate seeing most anyone get killed, Coalition forces, Iraqis who actually believe they're fighting for their homes, especially innocent civilians. People who execute hostages and prisoners, not so much.
You, on the other hand, seem to want civilian casualties in Fallujah. I assume this is because you need lots of dead women and children to support your preconceptions about the blood-thirsty Americans. I expect that if there are not sufficient dead reported in Fallujah, you will blame the low body-count on a cover-up and continue your teeth-gnashing.
Quote:The Fallujah hospital could have been taken for a combination of reasons. If the insurgents hadn't mined the bridges which are the only access to it from the city proper, it could have been used to treat anyone injured. Having it under coalition protection also preventd the insurgents from taking it. Since the insurgents tend to be rather indiscriminate about who they shoot, I assume that this would have saved lives.
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, to recap the points on which we agree-
The US did NOT take the Falujah hospital to "save lives".
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The insurgents are NOT primarily(per military statements) or even necessarily "headed by" (unsupported assumption) foreigners.
Nothing to indicate the insurgents were from Fallujah either. And the headquarters of Abu Musab Zarqawi were found in the city. He's Jordanian, BTW.
Quote:
NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq, Nov. 18 -- U.S. soldiers discovered a house in southern Fallujah on Thursday believed by U.S. military officials to be a main headquarters for the network of the Jordanian guerrilla leader Abu Musab Zarqawi, whose group has claimed responsibility for numerous bombings, kidnappings and beheadings across Iraq.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59519-2004Nov18.html
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
When dealing with an insurgency comingled with a population, it is "undoable" to kill only the "bad guys". (Geezer, you said this yourself)
Unfortunately, this may be true. If the insurgents have no qualms about endangering civilians, it is quite possible that some could be killed.
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The US Army at this point does not have ANY civilian casualties to report.
The last I saw they reported 30 or 35 wounded that they had treated (casualties = killed and wounded, btw, not just killed.) I had forgotten the 5 (I think) civilians found by the coalition forces, shot execution-style, but since they were killed by the insurgents and can't be counted against the American savages, I guess you don't want to know about them.
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Are we agreed so far?
Not really, but I'm interested in seeing how you twist these tidbits into another tirade.
BTW, earlier you said "I can't address the insurgent actions because I have no control over them." But the truth is, you do. Whether you agree with US policy or not, your failure to condemn, or even show any dismay over, the insurgency's barbaric actions can only be taken as an implicit approval of their methods. You, and people like you, provide them with endless propaganda. So you could actually be seen as supporting their actions.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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"Whether you agree with US policy or not, your failure to condemn, or even show any dismay over, the insurgency's barbaric actions can only be taken as an implicit approval of their methods. You, and people like you, provide them with endless propaganda. {How?} So you could actually be seen as supporting their actions."
Quick! Geezer, maybe you should inform Gonzales that someone might be thinking double plus ungood thoughts!! But before you do, you might want to know that I was protesting against the Taliban in Afghanistan while we were negotiating pipeline deals. I hate the Saudi Royal family (I happen to know someone whose nephew was murdered by a Saudi Prince after having been raped). I wasn't a big supporter of Saddam (like Bush was), and I'm against oppression and terrorism in ANY form- even the Zarqawi form. But I can't feel ashamed of Zarqawi because I don't identify with him. I can, and do, feel ashamed of our wrongdoings.
To address your points specifically-
"Nothing to indicate the insurgents were from Fallujah either."
So what? A number of extended families are split between cities in the Sunni triangle and one of the things about Iraqi families is that they feel deeply about their extended members. And don't forget- if you hurt a family member their culture demands revenge.
"And the headquarters of Abu Musab Zarqawi were found in the city."
Are you implying that he was head of the city and in charge of the insurgency? Then it's good that he was routed out of the city, it's very unfortunate that we didn't catch him and sad that we apparently had to attack a whole city to get at one evil foreign terrorist.
"I'm interested in seeing how you twist these tidbits into another tirade."
For an example of a tirade, please see Geezer's post (Above).
Geezer, I'm offended that you question my patriotism when you had no good arguments to offer.
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Geezer- I think this is where my discussion with you needs to end. I urge you to reflect on where your assumption that we can do no wrong has led you. AT one time, our goal in Iraq was to eliminate WMD. Then it was the rid the country of Saddam Hussein. Then it was to turn that country into "flypaper" for our enemies. (Did anyone ask the Iraqis if they wanted to be bait, and have a war fought on its soild between the USA and its enemies?) Then we said we wanted to install democracy. Where are we now?
For what it's worth, I believe in the principles of freedom amd equality that our nation was founded on. I feel strongly that people should be able to control their future, and not be oppressed by religious, economic, or political tyranny. In a bit of cultural chuavinsim, Sharia law drives me nuts because of its intense oppression of women. I believe that we should not support tyranny for short-term gains, and when we do it comes back to haunt us decades later.
Those are my ethics.
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According to an AP story, about 1,200 Fallujan insurgents have been killed:
Quote:As reported on network news (no reference) appx half of those killed were identified by origin, and they came from Fallujah and neighboring villages.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4625783,00.html
Friday November 19, 2004
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) An estimated 1,200 insurgents have been killed ... the military said.
The Daily Star (Lebanon) carried an AFP report, and Al-Jazeera and other foreign news services reported on the US Centcom count of 24 out of 1,000 foreign fighters among the insurgents:
Quote:US Centcom has explained the low number of identified foreign insurgents, saying they must have left Fallujah before the US attack, and are (still) a major force in Iraq in general:
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&artic
le_id=10233
U.S. overstated foreign fighter numbers in Iraq
By Agence France Presse (AFP)
Friday, November 19, 2004
DAMASCUS: Washington exaggerated numbers of foreign fighters in Iraq to justify the assault on Fallujah, an official Syrian daily claimed Thursday.
"The question of foreign fighters crossing Iraqi (borders) has been exaggerated, given that only 24 of the 1,000 insurgents captured in Fallujah are foreign," Ath-Thawra said.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/194BA8A5-2DAF-461A-A101-5965D01
56D17.htm
Thursday 18 November 2004
Al-Jazeera
(O)f the more than 1000 men between the ages of 15 and 55 who were captured in intense fighting in Fallujah last week, just 15 are confirmed foreign fighters, General George Casey, the top US ground commander in Iraq, said on Monday.
Also on Monday, Iraqi Interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi acknowledged that anti-US fighters were largely made up of his countrymen.
Quote:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11433633
%255E1702,00.html
"A lot of the foreign fighters left Fallujah in the early days," said Lieutenant-general Lance Smith, deputy commander of Centcom, noting it had been a "well advertised campaign". "A lot of them moved out of there. Some suicidal types stayed behind, but others moved out. Some went back home, others went to Ramdi (Ramadi?), Mosul and most likely Baghdad to fight another day," he said. Of the some 1000 people detained by the US military after fighting in Fallujah fewer than two per cent are of foreign origin, Lt-Gen Smith said. "Up to 1000 (in Iraq) could (emphasis mine) be foreign fighters," he said, noting that "suicide jihad is not particular to the Iraqi way".
So how does one explain news reports of hundreds of foreign insurgents like this one:
Quote:A quick check indicates Bill Gertz, a (former?) journalist for the Washington Times (not the Wash Post) is a major contributor. Besides being an author, there is no obvious qualification that indicates he is 'in the know'. The lesson is, one needs to look at news sources carefully.
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41540
GEOSTRATEGY-DIRECT INTELLIGENCE BRIEF
Saddam loyalists hire Arabs to fight U.S.
Hundreds of foreign nationals captured in Fallujah
Posted: November 19, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com
Loyalists to ousted Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein have hired thousands of Arab nationals to fight the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq, reports Geostrategy-Direct, the global intelligence information service.
Officials said hundreds of foreign nationals have been captured in Fallujah during the past week. They said the fighters were from Afghanistan, Iran, Jordan, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Syria.
"You, and people like you, provide them with endless propaganda. So you could actually be seen as supporting their actions."
Geezer, I said you looked lame. And you replied: "Ah, the usual Rue insult. From you, I take this as a complement." Later you said SignyM could be seen as a supporter of barbaric insurgents. Try looking in the mirror for the source of the unsually vile insults.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer- I think this is where my discussion with you needs to end. I urge you to reflect on where your assumption that we can do no wrong has led you.
The topic of this thread was ethnic cleansing, specifically relating to the attack on Fallujah. The premise that the coalition forces, primarily the Americans, showed no regard for civilian casualties, and in fact wanted to kill Sunnis.
My position is that the American forces have gone to great lengths to reduce civilian casualties as far as possible, while the insurgents have not, and in fact are currently causing far more casualties among the civilian population.
I don't think that "we" can do no wrong. I'm aware that members of the American forces have committed crimes under our military's code of conduct (one of the strictest in the world concerning treatment of civilians and prisoners, I might add). I'm also aware that these people are being prosecuted and punished. And we don't have to wait for some international court to do it.
I do note that the types of actions that would result in prosecution for an American, and worse, are standard policy for the insurgents. I note that the way the insurgents are fighting is responsible for much of the risk civilians face from coalition fire. I note that this is also their policy. I also note the double standard applied to these actions by some here because they "can't control" the insurgents, as though they had to be in control of something before they could have an opinion about it.
I think I provided a pretty good case that the coalition isn't involved in "ethnic cleansing" or uncontrolled killing of civilians, and that if anyone is, it's the insurgents.
And as usual, you want to turn the whole thing into a referendum on the war. That poor horse has been beat to steak tartar. You can have whatever opinion about the rightness or wrongness of the war, but we are where we are, and that can't be changed. How we deal with it now is the issue.
You say that you believe that people should be able to control their future, so which one do you like? The one with an election in January, or the one with either Baathists or Wahabis running the show from the barrel of a gun? Thats pretty much the choices.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Rue. Let me correct your creative editing. (the dropped text is in bold and italics.)
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/194BA8A5-2DAF-461A-A101-5965D01
56D17.htm
Thursday 18 November 2004
Al-Jazeera
(O)f the more than 1000 men between the ages of 15 and 55 who were captured in intense fighting in Fallujah last week, just 15 are confirmed foreign fighters, General George Casey, the top US ground commander in Iraq, said on Monday.
Several senior commanders agree that the overwhelming majority of fighters are drawn from tens of thousands of former government employees whose sympathies lie with Saddam Hussein, unemployed criminals who find work laying roadside bombs, and Iraqi "religious extremists".
Also on Monday, Iraqi Interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi acknowledged that anti-US fighters were largely made up of his countrymen.But he maintained that foreign fighters had often been responsible for car bombings and other spectacular attacks that he said were designed to derail elections scheduled for January.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Let it be said here that Al-Jazeera actually DOES carry extended quotes and information from the 'other side' (the US). It could be argued they are less biased, less controlled, and more 'fair' than US media, which doen't carry extended quotes from the 'other side', not even from internal critics.
But it doesn't make those quotes neccesarily believable all the same. Just b/c several military people (not quoted and apparently off the record) and Alawi 'said' something, is it true?
BTW, I do think you owe SignyM an apology at the very least. And as for my comment (you looked lame) which was the MILDEST of personal observations, it doesn't even come close to your standard of insult that you throw around without guilt. So my next observation is that you also look like a hypocrite.
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