Real World Event Discussions

The Evidens

POSTED BY: JO753
UPDATED: Monday, February 14, 2022 07:11
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SECOND

Thursday, June 22, 2017 11:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

People knew that Trump wanted to make nice with Russia when they voted for him. YOUR big problem isn't that Trump is being "manipulated" in some underhanded way, you're just scared that people might actually have voted for his very openly-stated policy direction.

WHY??? Because you're utterly paranoid about RUSSIA!. Jeez, do you have any idea how utterly unhinged you sound? You're just like AURAPTOR who to this day still thinks that Saddam had WMD!

This focus on RUSSIA! is not only (mostly) pointless, it apparently excuses you from thinking about anything else ... things that might be more useful in the long-run, like "What are America's interests"?

But hey, take a little time from your all-consuming fear and meet me over in the "What are America's Interests" thread. It's OK ... you can take your eye off RUSSIA! for a few hours here and there, and think about something else for a change. Don't worry - your paranoia will still be waiting for you when you get back to it.

Bernie Sanders said there are several things Trump is doing not in America's interests:

So you have this unprecedented attack on the media. What this guy is doing is basically telling the American people, “You cannot trust anything in mainstream media.”

Then, on top of that, he is attacking the judiciary system and Department of Justice. A judge rules against him — that is not unusual; judges often rule against presidents and against legislation — but you don't go around undermining the judiciary and calling people “so-called judges” because they ruled against you.

Then on top of that, you have his support for authoritarian leaders.

The American people, I think, whether you are a Republican or Democrat, have a hard time understanding his affection for a guy like Russian President Vladimir Putin, who has worked overtime to undermine not only democracy in his own country but also democracy in the United States.

Do you want a good relationship with Russia? Of course you do. But why would you have what appears to be a personal affection for an authoritarian leader? It is not just Putin. It is also President Rodrigo Duterte of the Philippines; it is the royal family of Saudi Arabia.

Again: You may want to make alliances, you may not; those are debates you have to have. But for a country like the United States, which has been seen, historically, as one of the great promoters of democracy, why have this affinity for so many authoritarian countries?

I have spoken to conservatives who share these exact same concerns.

Bernie has more to say about Trump at
www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/6/22/15848468/bernie-sanders-trum
p-dangerous-authoritarian

Signym might demand my opinion and ignore Bernie's. My opinion is that Trump should resign for the good of the U.S.A.

In my opinion that won't happen.

My other opinion is that Trump voters from 2016 should give a truthful assessment of Trump before they vote again for him in 2020.

In my opinion that won't happen. But who knows what might happen in 4 years? Maybe Trump voters will be older and wiser. In my opinion those voters will only be older.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SIGNYM

Friday, June 23, 2017 12:20 AM

Quote:
Bernie Sanders said there are several things Trump is doing not in America's interests:

So you have this unprecedented attack on the media. What this guy is doing is basically telling the American people, “You cannot trust anything in mainstream media.”-

Well, you can't. If the endless shilling by the NYT for attacking Iraq and Syria weren't good enough examples of biased-to-the-point-of-propaganda-reporting, the silence on all of Obama's failings and the endless releases of "anonymous" leaks (some of them demonstrable lies) about Trump and "Russia" should provide anyone on either side ample reason to distrust anything the press says.

Don't forget, our media is CORPORATE media. BTW, don't trust politicians either. What Trump said is pretty much a truism, and beneficial to the workings of a democracy.

Quote:
Then, on top of that, he is attacking the judiciary system and Department of Justice. A judge rules against him — that is not unusual; judges often rule against presidents and against legislation — but you don't go around undermining the judiciary and calling people “so-called judges” because they ruled against you.

He called a judge a name? Oh, the horror!

Any laws being proposed to restrict the judiciary?

Quote:
Then on top of that, you have his support for authoritarian leaders.

As opposed to Obama, who supported the Saudis and the other Gulf nations?

Quote:
The American people, I think, whether you are a Republican or Democrat, have a hard time understanding his affection for a guy like Russian President Vladimir Putin, who has worked overtime to undermine not only democracy in his own country but also democracy in the United States.

Putin has been an extremely effective leader. Under his Presidential terms, the typical per capita GDP in Russia rose by a factor of three or four, the influence of oligarchs and criminal gangs was reduced, and the jihadist threat in Chechnya was crushed. He has also "hardened" Russia's economic, military, and financial infrastructure against western meddling and threats. Can you say that any of that happened under Obama or Bush?

Quote:
You want a good relationship with Russia? Of course you do. But why would you have what appears to be a personal affection for an authoritarian leader? It is not just Putin. It is also President Rodrigo Duterte of the Philippines; it is the royal family of Saudi Arabia.

I don't know about this "personal affection" that you keep referring to. Grab me a few quotes that you find troubling.

Quote:
Again: You may want to make alliances, you may not; those are debates you have to have. But for a country like the United States, which has been seen, historically, as one of the great promoters of democracy, why have this affinity for so many authoritarian countries?

I don't know if we want to make an "alliance" with Russia any more than we want to pointlessly antagonize them. On some issues, our interests overlap and on others not so much.

Quote:
I have spoken to conservatives who share these exact same concerns.

I suppose that Trump, being a businessman, is used to getting his own way and not too much in tune with being politically-correct. But the thing about Trump, or ANY President, is that his power is limited by Congress and by the judiciary.

The more backing the opposition party has, the better they are at limiting what the President can do. Which is why it would be best if the Democrats would offer a GOOD ALTERNATIVE to Trump - something that addresses the economic stagnation that so many people have been feeling since 2008 - instead of being a bunch of whiny crybabies.

Quote:
Signym might demand my opinion and ignore Bernie's. My opinion is that Trump should resign for the good of the U.S.A.

For which YOU have offered no good reason. Unless you're agreeing with Bernie?

Quote:
My other opinion is that Trump voters from 2016 should give

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SECOND

Friday, June 23, 2017 1:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Putin has been an extremely effective leader. Under his Presidential terms, the typical per capita GDP in Russia rose by a factor of three or four, the influence of oligarchs and criminal gangs was reduced, and the jihadist threat in Chechnya was crushed. He has also "hardened" Russia's economic, military, and financial infrastructure against western meddling and threats. Can you say that any of that happened under Obama or Bush?

So all the glory goes to Putin? How nice of you! You of the opinion that Trump will increase per capita GDP in America by a factor of three or four? How optimistic of you! For a factor of three, that is 7% per year over 16 years. Trump's predicting 4% per year, which will not happen in my opinion.

Getting back to Evidence from today:
Intel chiefs tell investigators Trump suggested they refute collusion with Russians
www.cnn.com/2017/06/22/politics/intel-chiefs-trump-refute-collusion/in
dex.html

This goes further than what Trump asked James Comey to do. He wanted Comey to publicly acknowledge that Trump himself wasn’t under investigation, which was at least true. But he apparently asked the intelligence chiefs to say that his campaign didn’t collude with the Russians, which is precisely what’s under investigation. That’s like asking the district attorney to publicly exonerate a murder suspect while police are still collecting evidence.

This may not have been an order to interfere with an ongoing investigation, but it was sure as hell inappropriate, as both Coats and Rogers obviously knew.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

6STRINGJOKER

Friday, June 23, 2017 1:05 AM

You know what? I figured out who Second and G and T and J0 sound like. It took me a LONG time to figure it out, but it's so obvious.

They sound EXACTLY like the Anti-Obama-From-Day-One-No-Matter-What types that watched Hannity and listened to Rush every single day.

I've got news for you fools. Trump isn't going anywhere, just like Obama wasn't going anywhere.

SECOND

Friday, June 23, 2017 1:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
You know what? I figured out who Second and G and T and J0 sound like. It took me a LONG time to figure it out, but it's so obvious.

They sound EXACTLY like the Anti-Obama-From-Day-One-No-Matter-What types that watched Hannity and listened to Rush every single day.

I've got news for you fools. Trump isn't going anywhere, just like Obama wasn't going anywhere.

Why should he go away? But then again why should the MSM not cover every little detail of his Presidency? If you don't like that then Trump should be more careful with the details.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SIGNYM

Friday, June 23, 2017 1:20 AM

Okay, SECOND, here is the crux of one your concerns, I think ....

You believe that Trump would use Putin or Duterte ... or even Hitler ... as a blueprint for how a "strongman" can gain control of a nominally-democratic nation (one which at least has multi-party elections).

First of all, I would say that is only possible when a nation is in extremis (at the point of death) ... which I think accurately describes Weimar Germany, Russia under Yeltsin, and the Philippines pretty much most of the time. People will tolerate a loss of civic freedom in exchange for practical freedoms - the freedom to buy food, to walk the streets without getting mugged, or to find a job.

Which is why it is SO IMPORTANT to get that conversation going about we Americans need and the direction that we need to be going. Also, why it is so important for a real opposition party with real alternatives and a real plan to come forward, whether that is the Democratic party or something else. Trying to sell us on "the poor illegal alien" or "the poor freedom-loving Syrians" or "Why we should all be just one big happy global family" is a non-starter. It would be awfully nice (for the Dems, and for everyone) if the DNC would collectively get its head out of its ass and be that party to come forward. Because its a poor position to be in when someone like Trump looks like the better alternative.

As for "Russia trying to destroy our democracy" ... I can't imagine what Putin would get out of generically meddling. And the only direct outcome I can imagine Putin wanting would be a President who wants better relations with Russia. But isn't that in our interests anyway? To cooperate in areas where our interests overlap?

In any case, the Patriot Act, the unlimited warrantless spying, monopolistic corporate media, Obama's star chamber proceedings, the unprecedented prosecution of whistleblowers, the constant drumbeat of anti-Russian propaganda (to the point when anyone who even demurs from participating is immediately branded as a "Russian troll" and a traitor), the constant anonymous anti-Trump gossip released by the security state, and our endless wars abroad pretty much do that already???

As far as I can tell, "the Russians" didn't make a dent in our election process. We're already an oligarchy, and our civil freedoms and ability to know what's going on in government have pretty much been worn away, anyway. The problem isn't "Russia", it's us. We need to hold our government to higher standards.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake
THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one

6STRINGJOKER

Friday, June 23, 2017 1:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
You know what? I figured out who Second and G and T and J0 sound like. It took me a LONG time to figure it out, but it's so obvious.

They sound EXACTLY like the Anti-Obama-From-Day-One-No-Matter-What types that watched Hannity and listened to Rush every single day.

I've got news for you fools. Trump isn't going anywhere, just like Obama wasn't going anywhere.
Why should he go away? But then again why should the MSM not cover every little detail of his Presidency? If you don't like that then Trump should be more careful with the details.

I'm referring to idiotic posts like this one:

Quote:

Name calling, lying and taunting - who's the cry baby??
Keep swinging and missing, hon. Trump's going down and he's going to go down hard, and it will be a great day in the USA - the world - when that happens. I'm going to break out the good stuff. Sorry you won't be able to join in the celebration. I will toast to your wretched sadness though - cheers!

I do have to admit out of all of the complainers here, you're the most pragmatic of the bunch.

SECOND

Friday, June 23, 2017 2:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Okay, SECOND, here is the crux of one your concerns, I think ....

Which is why it is SO IMPORTANT to get that conversation going about we Americans need and the direction that we need to be going. Also, why it is so important for a real opposition party with real alternatives and a real plan to come forward, whether that is the Democratic party or something else.

"that conversation going about we Americans need": You could probably get a majority of Americans to agree that Americans need healthcare. Trump says he wants better healthcare. There is Evidence healthcare will actually get worse with the passing of the Senate’s bill. https://qz.com/1012391 It hasn’t been signed by Trump or voted on by the House, which passed a different bill, but if it does NOT get signed, healthcare will automatically get worse because of insurance companies predictively pulling out of the market.
www.vox.com/health-care/2017/6/22/15855106/senate-health-bill-death-sp
iral-cartoon

This is very strong Evidence that Trump is not thinking about the details of what "Americans need" and he will end up with what is worse for America. Trump was promoting repeal and replace without thinking about the replacement. There was a tax cut that results when Obamacare is repealed and that is about as far as Trump's thinking went. But there was so much more needing to be done and the House, Senate, and Trump have not done the necessary work. There is nothing stopping them from doing that work, other than their hastiness. If the Republicans can't get this one unsubtle, completely obvious problem solved, there is no hope for solutions to other American problems.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SIGNYM

Friday, June 23, 2017 2:56 AM

SECOND, if healthcare is such a critical issue, where is the Democratic PLAN to do better?

That's the problem with the Dems .... they think if they whine loud enough and long enough about Trump, the electorate will fall into their laps. They need to do better than that, or the nation will fall into complete catastrophe and people really WILL choose a strongman, just so that "something" (anything) gets done.

If you can NOT mention Trump in your next 10 posts, you'll have made great progress. Even three posts without "Trump" or "GOP" will be a big step in the right direction!

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake
THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one

SECOND

Friday, June 23, 2017 3:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND, if healthcare is such a critical issue, where is the Democratic PLAN to do better?

That's the problem with the Dems .... they think if they whine loud enough and long enough about Trump, the electorate will fall into their laps. They need to do better than that, or the nation will fall into complete catastrophe and people really WILL choose a strongman, just so that "something" (anything) gets done.

If you can NOT mention Trump in your next 10 posts, you'll have made great progress. Even three posts without "Trump" or "GOP" will be a big step in the right direction!

There is a plan, but it does mention the President without using his given name.

Republicans control the House, the Senate, and the presidency. No one can stop them from passing a bad health care bill if they want to. But they should think carefully about what is likely to come next. Tens of millions of people losing insurance, and they’re to blame. A radicalized Democratic Party with a discredited moderate wing. The end of the assumption that a hybrid public-private model will fare better in America than a government-run system. And all this amid a presumption that sweeping health reform should be done, from the start, in the 51-vote reconciliation process, where expanding an existing government program is easier than regulating private insurance markets.

www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/6/15/15787626/mitch-mcconnell-sin
gle-payer-medicare-all

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly