things I wish they hadn't said

POSTED BY: meleaux
UPDATED: Saturday, April 17, 2004 10:20
VIEWED: 14297
PAGE 1 of 1

MELEAUX

Saturday, April 10, 2004 10:31 PM

There are a few quotes from different crew members that just dont feel right to me. For instance, I really wish Mal wouldn't call Inara a whore. It's just too mean.
Also Book's half a hump line, it's sooo out of charcter for him that I feel quite jarred. Then there's Jayne's getting poetic about his privates in HoG. Wash's planets up his rear end line gives a very weird visual.
Just wondering who else out there might have thought along these lines.

She understands, she doesn't comprehend

ZOID

Saturday, April 10, 2004 10:52 PM

Hey, Meleaux, comment ca-va?

Yeah, come to think of it, Mal's use of derogatory terminology for Inara would seem to be out of character for his chivalric code, wouldn't it?

At least he redeems himself, and JW may explicate his dialogue, in "Shindig" when he comes to the defense of Inara's honor. She then asks him (paraphrased), "Why are you the only one who gets to call me whore?" Mal looks sufficiently abashed in unspoken reply.

As for the rest of your examples, I didn't have much problem with those, or any of Joss' 'lyrics' for that matter. He and his team of writers are brilliant. The term "genius" gets overused, but if the shoe fits...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, April 11, 2004 12:37 AM

I don't see a problem with whore from Mal to Inara. I believe in Shindig he mentioned that he respects her but not her job.

And in Jaynestown when she thought that the boy she was servicing was referring to Mal and not Jayne she started to say that he had a strange sense of honour. I think what happened at the Battle of Serenity Valley gave him an interesting set of morals.

Can't remember anything about those other quotes though.

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

VETERAN

Sunday, April 11, 2004 12:50 AM

SigmaNunki is right, Mal calling Inara, whore is a commentary on her line of work, not what she thinks of hime. Besides she gets her shots in calling him a petty thief 'n all.

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL

Sunday, April 11, 2004 1:07 AM

Book's "half a hump" line that River overhears in his head is supposed to be jarring and out-of-character. At least, out of the character that WE know as Book. It seems to be something about his mysterious past, and the person he was before Serenity.

What the heck it means, that's anyone's guess!

"I like smackin' 'em!" - Jayne Cobb

ZOID

Sunday, April 11, 2004 1:45 AM

SigmaNunki and Veteran:

As politely as I can, I think y'all are off on this one. Mal could give a rat's ass about somebody else's idea of the law; but, he's a chivalrous man. If he ever kills you, you'll be facing him and armed. He'll risk life, limb and reputation to return stolen drugs to the townspeople who require them. When Atherton started to call Inara a whore, he got Mal's fist as a gob-stopper.

Figuratively speaking, Mal's a Southern boy. According to that code of chivalry, it's an abuse of masculine power to call a female a whore, even if she is one.

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

EMBERS

Sunday, April 11, 2004 2:04 AM

I didn't think that Mal calling Inara a whore was insult to her or her profession but instead a comment on his own feelings: he is attracted to her and admires her and he resents that she isn't available to him, but is to other (rich powerful) people... It is a sign of his own feelings of inadequacy IMO.

Also Book's 'half a hump' was clearly in reference to his secret past, it is like a clue to the kind of man he was (not a Godly one).

I forgot what the other problem lines were...but myself I don't think Joss has made any mistakes

he is perfect
always
(LOL)

VETERAN

Sunday, April 11, 2004 2:25 AM

That's an interesting point of view. Does the reverse apply to Inara. After all she set the ground rules.

ZOID

Sunday, April 11, 2004 2:50 AM

Veteran:

Mal and Inara... Whew! Mal's a man of honor, a man with a code; but, he let's it slip with Inara, because -- I think -- he longs for her, desperately.

She in turn, longs for him. She's a prostitute, geisha, whore, however you'd like to say it; but she struggles with her profession. One young man offers her a 'permanent position', then accuses her of having a rigged clock; following, there is an awkward moment as he retreats ungracefully. She is clearly upset by that interaction.

Then in HoG, she tells Mal with a straight face that she's glad that he and Nandi had sex, that she's only disappointed in Nandi's lack of taste. That's a slap at Mal; but, in the next scene she's alone in a room crying bitter tears over Mal being with another woman. Later, in an unconcluded conversation with Mal, Nandi is clearly about to disclose to him that Inara's in love with him, when they are interrupted by gunfire.

Yet, she sleeps with many men, while Mal's heart must suffer it. My argument is not that Mal is not justified to refer to her profession by coarse names, rather that Mal's chivalry should preclude it, even if it's true. If he lets it slip, perhaps it's the truest indication of his deep feelings for her, his longing to make her his own.

But I still agree with Meleaux that maybe 'whore' didn't need saying.

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

KINGOFTHEMUDDERS

Sunday, April 11, 2004 4:30 AM

"Space Monkeys" by Mal. Why is Mal talking about Space Monkeys? Too cutish for Mal.

When Jayne and Book are talking after Early gets booted off the ship and are about to work out, Jaynes dialogue is too dry for my taste. Sounds too "written"; too Kevin Smithy. I mean, I love the convo, but it doesn't fit Jayne's "That's why I don't kiss'em on the mouth" style.

LTNOWIS

Sunday, April 11, 2004 5:05 AM

I found Mal's space monkeys quote to be bitingly sarcastic and in-character.

KERNELM

Sunday, April 11, 2004 5:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:

Figuratively speaking, Mal's a Southern boy. According to that code of chivalry, it's an abuse of masculine power to call a female a whore, even if she is one.

I've seen the assertion that Mal is a "Southern" gentleman several times, and it just doesn't wash. Remember we're talking about somebody who shot a lawman in the face with no warning, robbed the dead, punched a woman, killed an at-the-moment defenseless man, and set up a sniper attack. (Note that I personally don't have a problem with any of these things, especially if I was in his situation, but I'm pretty sure they'd violate the usual "Southern" chilvaric code. Not to mention fighting alongside a woman, and a black woman no less.) Mal is nothing if not practical (in most situations), and that generally precludes chivalry.

Mal calling Inara "whore" is an integral part of his contradictory relationship with her, from the first time they met onwards.

ARDEN

Sunday, April 11, 2004 5:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by KingoftheMudders:
"Space Monkeys" by Mal. Why is Mal talking about Space Monkeys? Too cutish for Mal.

Really, I found a lot of Mal's dialogue at the beginning of "The Train Job" to be somewhat out of character; he's a little too quippy and loose. Sarcasm is a definite part of his nature, as is a little bit of wordplay when the time is right, but a lot of the "quick exposition" dialogue that begins the episode after the opening credits feels forced. I would guess that it ties directly into Joss Whedon's assertion that the Fox brass wanted the new pilot to be "funnier and faster paced," so we get dialogue that feels markedly different than anything else written for the show. They did have to write the episode in under a week, mind you. Many of the jokes in "The Train Job" seem to feel more like they came from Buffy in tone and style. Firefly has its own sense of humor, and I think we see that clearly in other episodes.

You got a wife? All I got is that dumbass stick sounds like it's raining.

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, April 11, 2004 6:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
As politely as I can, I think y'all are off on this one. Mal could give a rat's ass about somebody else's idea of the law; but, he's a chivalrous man.

Who mentioned anything about they law? I talked about her job and his dislike of it and his strange sense of morals probably a result of the browncoats defeat.

I'll agree along with everyone else (including my wife) that Mal's personal feelings come in to play here as well. They are most likely the most compelling reason for this behaviour.

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, April 11, 2004 6:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Arden:
Really, I found a lot of Mal's dialogue at the beginning of "The Train Job" to be somewhat out of character; he's a little too quippy and loose.
...
They did have to write the episode in under a week, mind you.

The episode did seem somewhat forced.

But, according to the commentary they got the order for the new pilot firday and it needed to be on the execs desks before they go in Monday morning. So, about a weekend.

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

STATIC

Sunday, April 11, 2004 7:14 AM

Speaking as a man who was raised by that same "Southern gentility" code. . .Mal IS very much a Southern Gentleman. It isn't all white suits, verandas and mint juleps. We don't slap each other with gloves. . .

"You, suh. ..have offended mah honah. Ah demand satisfaction. Pistols at dawn, suh."

We do what needs to be done and when. Stealing from the dead is no sweat if it's not offending your family or a family you're well acquainted with. . .he hit a woman, sure. . .but in an honest fight. . .and the sniper attack was a turning of the tables in which a sniper attack was set up against HIM. A 'just desserts' sort of thing. Also. . .your mention of the fighting alongside a black woman. . .let's remember that Joss is capturing an IDEAL, not mimicing the reconstruction detail for detail. The whole southern chivalric code is BASED on practicality. . .with gentility.

I agree about the whore thing. He calls her a whore in "OoG" because he feels insulted by her at first. . .and later because he loves her, and she is unattainable because of her job. It's his way of lashing out at circumstance, not her.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

ZOID

Sunday, April 11, 2004 12:07 PM

Ditto, Static, and thanks for helping another Southern boy out. Some apparently have no idea what a code of honor is, or else their's is too different from ours to comprehend. To each his own...

As for you, personally, 'keep flying'.

In regard to my statement about Mal's disregard for someone else's law and his chivalry: Well, ya' got me there, Sigmund'sUnkie.

I figured as soon as I said Mal was a man of honor (do word search on internet for definition), you'd come back with "he breaks the law". So I thought, "Head the trolls off at the pass" by prefacing Mal's chivalry with his disregard for laws written by other people, many of which are designed solely to deprive a person of freedoms his chivalric code guarantee.

But, you turned the tables on me! By throwing up the "who said anything about the law?" gambit, you forced me to explain the whole thing anyway. Good job...

Now maybe you could do me a favor? Please look up 'chivalry' before making any counterarguments. Southern chivalry is deeply based on Arthurian chivalry. Further half-logical arguments will be ignored. Here's an acceptable URL for chivalry: http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall/chivalry.html

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

CORWYN

Sunday, April 11, 2004 2:37 PM

I agree that some of these seem out of character. I trust Joss however, and believe that there are reasons, and it is just that we don't understand their character yet. In particular Mal's, is so contrary to everyone else in the show (companions are highly respected). Even Book respects her; when Mal baits him with the 'ambassador' line, he is flustered about his faux pas, but later in the ep he shows his respect by seeking solace with her in his moral quandry. So why does Mal have this attitude? I don't know, and I hope Joss tells us eventually.

I don't think Jayne's getting poetical, is out of character, just crude. A _lot_ of people wish he hadn't said it.

My wish (not verbal) is that the CGI guys had gotten the Reaver sequence right in Serenity. Mal says that they are _passing_ another vessel. Yet, the Reaver ship is shown _facing_ them. The slowness makes no sense with them going in opposite directions, but is perfectly reasonable if they are going in (roughly) the same direction.

Corwyn

GEORDIESTEVE2003

Sunday, April 11, 2004 3:40 PM

I think what a lot of people here seem to be missing is the fact that the characters dont belong to us. We talk about them, use their catch-phrases, hell, we even write fan fiction about them, trying to find their voices, but they ain't ours. We can guess at their motivations and the heart of the character, and therefore the underpinning aspect the actors taps into in order to become that character, but its just a guess. Strictly speaking there isnt any such thing as out of character. They're imperfect poeple, so they wont always say the right thing or do the right thing. Do you? I sure don't and I class myself as a good person. They wouldn't just write something for the sake of it, its written in line with what information or background they have on the character from the creator.

SAINT JAYNE

Sunday, April 11, 2004 3:59 PM

Well said, GeordieSteve2003.

But still, there are things I wish they hadn't said. That applies to real life, too! "Ooh, I wish I hadn't said that..."

Wash: "WWhhaaaaaargh!" - the commentary tells that Wash changed his flying style from calm to panicky for The Message.

Jayne: "Pretentious?" - the source of much debate that Jayne is actually an undercover University professor or something.

That's all I can think of now.

SIGMANUNKI

Sunday, April 11, 2004 4:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
...Some apparently have no idea what a code of honor is, or else their's is too different from ours to comprehend...

...Sigmund'sUnkie.

...do word search on internet for definition)...
..."Head the trolls off at the pass"...

...Now maybe you could do me a favor? Please look up 'chivalry' before making any counterarguments....
...Respectfully

I don't see any respectfully here. When did this turn in to something malicious? If you reply to me in the future I would appreciate a civil tone. After all, as I have stated in another thread before, we are all browncoats. And if we cannot remain civil then we have just taken one step closer to realizing Reavers.

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
...by prefacing Mal's chivalry with his disregard for laws written by other people, many of which are designed solely to deprive a person of freedoms his chivalric code guarantee.

I'll reference again Inara in JaynesTown talking about Mal's strange sense of honour and the fact that he (as Nathan Fillion put it) was hollowed out in side. So, then perhaps if indeed he did have this type of code at one point, would it not make sense that it was somehow mangled by the crushing moment we saw him take in Serenity Valley?

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

THEFOP

Sunday, April 11, 2004 5:06 PM

I don't have anything to say on the "whore" issue at the moment, but I DO have my own most hated line.

In "the Message", Simon's making a rather pathetic attempt at sweettalking Kaylee, and he uses what in my opinion is the worse line in the history of flirtation, and I'm including "If I said you have a beautiful body would you hold it against me?" here. It was something along the lines of "And all the other girls I know are either married, a relative or a professional" Everytime I hear that, I wonder how Simon managed to get through life intact. I cringe, I cry, I beat my head against walls.

once the snow got so deep you almost couldn't hear margaret atwood

STATIC

Sunday, April 11, 2004 5:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Saint Jayne:
Well said, GeordieSteve2003.

Jayne: "Pretentious?" - the source of much debate that Jayne is actually an undercover University professor or something.

That's all I can think of now.

Actually. . .I see alot of that in real life. . .you get someone like Jayne who hasn't had alot of education and isn't particularly 'well rounded' who learns/picks up a little tidbit like a particularly flowery word. . .gets a BASIC handle on the meaning. . .and then manages to find the occasional opportunity to insert it into conversation. Mal's look when Jayne says the word is something of a "boy you've been waiting MONTHS to use that, haven't you?"

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

THOREAU

Sunday, April 11, 2004 5:26 PM

Mal isn't a southern gentleman. Mal is the opposite of southern gentleman. Mal is honest, to the core. A southern gentleman will be polite and lie through his teeth while talking to an enemy. Mal just shoots him, or tells him what he really thinks. Mal may love Inara, but he is disgusted that she is a whore. Not necessarily with the whore business, but that she is one.

Book's line that River pulled out of his(her?) head was perfect. Book isn't a shepherd, as a few guest stars have said/indicated. He has some scary past, and that is a teaser into it.

The one thing that sticks out in my head was the beginning of War Stories, where Book is talking about Shan Yu(sp?) and immediately we go to Niska talking about the same guy. That's way too close to have two people not hearing each other talking about this guy we've never heard of and (so far) will never hear of again. If it had been in two consecutive episodes that would have been enough, but in the same act like that was just cheap. I expect better from ME.

Another thing, not a line but an action, the first time Mal punches Simon, I think the only time so far. Mal starts to turn and sucker-punches him. That may be in character for Mal to do against a worthy opponent where he may need a bit of surprise, but this pansy doctor is no worthy opponent. Mal should have been facing him from the punch's beginning to its end.

Jayne: "These are stone killers, little man. They ain't cuddly like me."

THOREAU

Sunday, April 11, 2004 5:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by thefop:
In "the Message", Simon's making a rather pathetic attempt at sweettalking Kaylee, and he uses what in my opinion is the worse line in the history of flirtation, and I'm including "If I said you have a beautiful body would you hold it against me?" here. It was something along the lines of "And all the other girls I know are either married, a relative or a professional" Everytime I hear that, I wonder how Simon managed to get through life intact. I cringe, I cry, I beat my head against walls.

Simon really is that much of a fool. He's smart, he can patch you up no matter how badly you've been punctured, but he's a fool. A selfish, arrogant fool. For him to come up with a line like that is perfect.

Jayne: "These are stone killers, little man. They ain't cuddly like me."

STATIC

Sunday, April 11, 2004 5:38 PM

Okay. .

The FIRST time Mal punches Simon, Simon DID come fully around and actually paused. Mal stood there for a second, asked, "Forget your toothpaste?" and then clocked his pansy ass. Not a sucker punch.

The SECOND time Mal decked Simon it was because Simon pushed him verbally. . .goading him about the Alliance. Mal lashed out. Jayne "saw that comin'" because he knows how Mal feels about the Alliance. Simon, of course, knowing nothing of Mal or his personal history had no idea that his comment would incense Mal to that point. To that point, Mal actually HAD behaved like someone who would do what the Alliance wanted, offering to dump him in a shuttle for the feds, asking if there was a reward for him, etc. etc. Maybe a sucker punch, but like I said. . .southern gentility isn't all verandas and mint juleps.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

THOREAU

Sunday, April 11, 2004 5:58 PM

oh yeah, forgot the first one.

well we can agree to disagree about the 2nd one, and about the idea of Mal as a southern gent.

t

Jayne: "These are stone killers, little man. They ain't cuddly like me."

LTNOWIS

Sunday, April 11, 2004 6:07 PM

Quote:

Simon really is that much of a fool. He's smart, he can patch you up no matter how badly you've been punctured, but he's a fool. A selfish, arrogant fool. For him to come up with a line like that is perfect.

Jayne: "These are stone killers, little man. They ain't cuddly like me."

See, I think Simon actually cares about Kaylee, and certainly about River. Even though I always cringe when he says that line, I think it represents his social ineptness rather well.

EMBERS

Sunday, April 11, 2004 6:45 PM

I agree that Simon cares about Kaylee, I think he even respects her abilities...
but that is still a long way from thinking she is an equal.
He knows that the society in which he grew up would totally reject an uncooth uneducated girl like Kaylee.
Simon is starting to grow and open his mind & heart, but I think somewhere inside he is still hoping to return to his 'real life' where he'll be a respected Doctor living in high society with a wife who is from a good family.

And I agree about the sucker punch...Mal says he'll shoot you in a fair fight face to face, but he will also throw you into a jet engine, kill your horse, or whatever else it takes to protect his ship and crew.

NEROLI

Sunday, April 11, 2004 6:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by thoreau:

Book's line that River pulled out of his(her?) head was perfect. Book isn't a shepherd, as a few guest stars have said/indicated. He has some scary past, and that is a teaser into it.

The one thing that sticks out in my head was the beginning of War Stories, where Book is talking about Shan Yu(sp?) and immediately we go to Niska talking about the same guy. That's way too close to have two people not hearing each other talking about this guy we've never heard of and (so far) will never hear of again. If it had been in two consecutive episodes that would have been enough, but in the same act like that was just cheap. I expect better from ME.

See, and I view the juxtiposition of Book and Niska both referancing Shan Yu as another clue on Book's past. To me, it's like Joss is dropping a tiny clue that Book and Niska have some things in common. It acts as a reinforcement to Book knowing the name in "The Train Job". Which was the first thing Book said that Jayne picks up as being out of character for a Preacher.

BLAZINGBUG

Sunday, April 11, 2004 9:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by thoreau:
Mal isn't a southern gentleman. Mal is the opposite of southern gentleman. Mal is honest, to the core. A southern gentleman will be polite and lie through his teeth while talking to an enemy. Mal just shoots him, or tells him what he really thinks.

Sorry, but that's a southern princess, not a southern gentleman. I can understand the confusion though.

A southern gentleman will be polite and tell you in no uncertain terms exactly what he thinks about you. Look at how Mal deals with Badger, Patience, well, pretty much everyone.

The one exception might be in matters of the heart, and that's pretty much Mal too.

On another note, as far as Jayne and "pretentious," I just got the feeling it was a word he heard often from people dealing with Mal, not that he necessarily knew exactly what it meant.

"Wacky fun..."

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Sunday, April 11, 2004 9:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Southern chivalry is deeply based on Arthurian chivalry.

Of course it is. Is that Jerry Bruckheimer's King Arthur?

Quote:

Further half-logical arguments will be ignored. Here's an acceptable URL for chivalry: http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall/chivalry.html

Which quotes a Rifts supplement as source material.

"I threw up on your bed"

LJOSALF

Sunday, April 11, 2004 11:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Saint Jayne:
Jayne: "Pretentious?" - the source of much debate that Jayne is actually an undercover University professor or something.

Just like to point out that as he says this line, Jayne is very daintily using sugar tongs to dump about 6 or 8 sugar cubes into his fragile china cup of wood alcohol which, iirc, he holds properly by the handle. (Or maybe it was the cup he stole from Mal; I lost track.) Goes with the unexpected line, hand in glove as it were. And very amusing.

Ljosalf

The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
Marcel Proust (1871 - 1922)

ZOID

Sunday, April 11, 2004 11:21 PM

SigmaNunki:

I apologize. I wronged you. I would attempt to excuse my incivility by saying -- truthfully -- that it was early morning when I wrote the response. But, that does not excuse the lapse, because there is no excuse for impoliteness. I'm truly sorry.

Misguided by Voices:

I just did a quick search on "chivalry" and picked the first one that appeared to have a suitable list of chivalric virtues. I have no idea who or what 'Rifts' is/are.

More importantly than who sponsors the info, is the info itself. Disregarding outdated notions of Crusade, there are quite a few chivalric virtues that I believe we can readily recognize in Malcolm Reynolds, and that's why I referred the page. These are:

- Thou shalt repect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them.
- Thou shalt love the country in the which thou wast born (Shadow).
- Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy.
- Live one's life so that it is worthy of respect and honor.
- Live for freedom, justice and all that is good.
- Never attack an unarmed foe ("You'll be armed").
- Never attack from behind ("You'll be facing me").
- Never use a weapon on an opponent not equal to the attack (Atherton's failure).
- Avoid lying to your fellow man.
- Avoid deception.
- Avoid cheating.
- Avoid torture.
- Exhibit self control.
- Respect women.
- Exhibit Courage in word and deed.
- Defend the weak and innocent.
- Destroy evil in all of its monstrous forms.
- Crush the monsters that steal our land and rob our people (the fight against the Alliance).
- Fight with honor.
- Avenge the wronged (Defeated the bandits who'd been 'birddogging' the town in OMR).
- Never abandon a friend, ally, or noble cause (Carrying Tracey).
- Die with valor...honor.
- Always keep one's word of honor.
- Always maintain one's principles.
- Never betray a confidence or comrade.
- Respect life and freedom.
- Exhibit manners.
- Be respectful of host, women, and honor (He shoots Dobson, because the agent has a knack for "shooting girls" or taking them hostage, proving he has no honor).
- Loyalty to country (Shadow), King (cause), honor, freedom, and the code of chivalry.
- Loyalty to one's friends and those who lay their trust in thee ("You're on my crew").

Since I'm just going to presume that 'Rifts' is something bad or unsavory, this listing alleviates any need to look upon a webpage that seemed utterly harmless to me (i.e. no apparent political or religious hogwash). These are the items I was talking about.

As a boy, I was taught these behaviors -- never spelled out or listed -- by my father, under pain of whuppin' if I stepped out of line. That's was the Southern way of my youth. One not listed is "Be respectful of, and mind your elders".

It may seem quaint or trite to some, but a Southern boy, of my age, was taught the Code.

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

ZOID

Monday, April 12, 2004 12:04 AM

Okay, so now I know what Rifts is.

Then try this one. I reckon it's adult and literate enough. http://www.bartleby.com/65/ch/chivalry.html

An excerpt:

"The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001.

(shv´lr) (KEY) , system of ethical ideals that arose from feudalism and had its highest development in the 12th and 13th cent. 1
Chivalric ethics originated chiefly in France and Spain and spread rapidly to the rest of the Continent and to England. They represented a fusion of Christian and military concepts of morality and still form the basis of gentlemanly conduct (emphasis mine)... The chief chivalric virtues were piety, honor, valor, courtesy, chastity, and loyalty..."

Hope this is more acceptable. I also found a site that credited Leon Gautier, "The Decalogue" for the entry from Rifts, derogated above...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"River didn't fix faith. Faith fixed River."

- Senator Richard 'Book' Wilkins, Independent Congress
author of A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence

DELIA

Monday, April 12, 2004 2:17 AM

Quote:
If he ever kills you, you'll be facing him and armed.

Unless, of course, you're Jayne. Then he'll knock you out and throw you out the airlock. Or at least threaten to.

SIGMANUNKI

Monday, April 12, 2004 2:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
SigmaNunki:

I apologize. I wronged you. I would attempt to excuse my incivility by saying -- truthfully -- that it was early morning when I wrote the response. But, that does not excuse the lapse, because there is no excuse for impoliteness. I'm truly sorry.

No worries, it happens to the best of us. I know I've done it from time to time

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
I just did a quick search on "chivalry"...

I'm not saying that he doesn't live by some code or even that the code doesn't resemble some sort of chivalry in some way.

But, there are things in that list that Mal follows and those that he doesn't. That is where I say his code - whatever it was originally - got mangled by the events of his life and turned into whatever it is now. Which technically isn't _exactly_ chivalry. I'll reference my paraphrases above.

Let's just agree that he does have a code, but, admit that we don't agree where it necessarily begins or ends. Alot of that list is applicable, though.

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

VETERAN

Monday, April 12, 2004 3:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Static:
Okay. .
The SECOND time Mal decked Simon it was because Simon pushed him verbally. . . To that point, Mal actually HAD behaved like someone who would do what the Alliance wanted, offering to dump him in a shuttle for the feds, asking if there was a reward for him, etc. etc. Maybe a sucker punch, but like I said. . .southern gentility isn't all verandas and mint juleps.

On the DVD commentary Joss says it was a sucker punch.

THEFOP

Monday, April 12, 2004 3:45 AM

I feel like horning in with my historian-ness here. When I think southern culture, the first thing that pops into my mind isn't Mint Juleps and such. I think more about the southern fighthing tradition. It was this massive bareknuckle boxing tradition that went on for over a century. If you wanted to be respected in those circles as practiced it, you'd need scars, and reall honest-to-god skill. anything went in these circles, biting, gouging. Mal isn't a gentleman, he's a scrapper.

once the snow got so deep you almost couldn't hear margaret atwood

GNOC

Monday, April 12, 2004 4:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel:
Book's "half a hump" line that River overhears in his head is supposed to be jarring and out-of-character. At least, out of the character that WE know as Book. It seems to be something about his mysterious past, and the person he was before Serenity.

What the heck it means, that's anyone's guess!

"I like smackin' 'em!" - Jayne Cobb

What episode was this? I don't remember it at all.

ECGORDON

Monday, April 12, 2004 5:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnoc:
Quote:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel:
Book's "half a hump" line that River overhears in his head is supposed to be jarring and out-of-character. At least, out of the character that WE know as Book. It seems to be something about his mysterious past, and the person he was before Serenity.

What the heck it means, that's anyone's guess!

"I like smackin' 'em!" - Jayne Cobb

What episode was this? I don't remember it at all.

Objects in Space

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

ECGORDON

Monday, April 12, 2004 5:42 PM

Quote:
There are a few quotes from different crew members that just dont feel right to me. For instance, I really wish Mal wouldn't call Inara a whore. It's just too mean.

I may be mistaken, but I think Mal called Inara a whore only twice in the entire series, the first being when he was introducing her to Book in "Serenity," then in the flashback sequence of their first meeting in "Out of Gas." Why he did so on their first meeting I'm not sure, unless it was because he was annoyed that she supported unification, but in "Serenity" I think it was more to upset Book than her.

There is not anything else said that I didn't like, but there is one particular plot point that I wish Joss had not included. Most of the other guys here will probably think I'm crazy, but I don't think he should have shown the Inara/counselor scene in "War Stories." Girl-girl sex is becoming such a cliched thing these days, and I don't think it added anything to the story. In fact, it's only redeeming virtue was in giving us Jayne's "I'll be in my bunk" line.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

AERRIN

Monday, April 12, 2004 6:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Delia:
Quote:
If he ever kills you, you'll be facing him and armed.

Unless, of course, you're Jayne. Then he'll knock you out and throw you out the airlock. Or at least threaten to.

Bravo!

Remember, the things the characters say are NOT always the way things really are. Just because Mal claims that he won't kill anyone who's not facing him and armed doesn't mean he won't. It means that he'd like to think that he won't. Or that it suited his purposes to say so at the time. Or that he was trying to one-up Simon. There are a million reasons that lines can be said and 'it's the truth' is only one of them.

After all, Mal also claimed he never backs down from a fight.

(Yes you do! You do all the time!)

In other words, words are cheap - and even the characters can mislead, misunderstand, or be inclined to hyperbole. Their word is not law. Actions are a much better gauge as to canon personalities.

BLAZINGBUG

Monday, April 12, 2004 7:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:

There is not anything else said that I didn't like, but there is one particular plot point that I wish Joss had not included. Most of the other guys here will probably think I'm crazy, but I don't think he should have shown the Inara/counselor scene in "War Stories." Girl-girl sex is becoming such a cliched thing these days, and I don't think it added anything to the story. In fact, it's only redeeming virtue was in giving us Jayne's "I'll be in my bunk" line.

Do we need any other reason???

Actually, it had a bit more purpose in the original script, which had the scene where Inara went to the Counselor for help. Showed what Inara would do for Mal.

"Wacky fun..."

ECGORDON

Monday, April 12, 2004 8:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Aerrin:
Quote:
Originally posted by Delia:
Quote:
If he ever kills you, you'll be facing him and armed.

Unless, of course, you're Jayne. Then he'll knock you out and throw you out the airlock. Or at least threaten to.

Bravo!

Remember, the things the characters say are NOT always the way things really are. Just because Mal claims that he won't kill anyone who's not facing him and armed doesn't mean he won't. It means that he'd like to think that he won't.

Who's to say that Mal ever had the intention of killing Jayne? I think he did it more to scare him into thinking he would kill him rather than actually carrying out the deed. Another possibility is that he knew someone else on board would overhear them and that would also help keep Jayne in line in the future.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

MISSOURIFIREFLY

Monday, April 12, 2004 8:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Quote:
I may be mistaken, but I think Mal called Inara a whore only twice in the entire series, the first being when he was introducing her to Book in "Serenity," then in the flashback sequence of their first meeting in "Out of Gas." Why he did so on their first meeting I'm not sure, unless it was because he was annoyed that she supported unification, but in "Serenity" I think it was more to upset Book than her.

I think Mal actually calls Inara a whore other times, too. I'm pretty sure he calls her that in "Shindig" while she's teaching him sword fighting the night before the duel. And I think he also says it in "Trash" when she confronts him about not choosing "real work". I could definitely be mis-remembering though.
Edited to add: I also don't think Mal would actually have killed Jayne. He didn't even kill Patience after she ambushed him and his people. Even though Jayne betrayed them, he wasn't armed or able to defend himself at that moment. I think Mal just wanted to teach Jayne a lesson.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

AMNESIAC

Monday, April 12, 2004 9:04 PM

Mal Decked Atherton in the ball room because he refered to Inara as property. He said something along the lines of; "She's mine for tonight bought and paid for." Ath didn't get a chance to call her a whore. Mal had already knocked him down. He decked Ath for the same reason he pick pocketed the slavers' money in the begining of the episode. The need for freedom, and respect for others' freedom is the main driving force for Mal's character.

So Mal can call Inara a whore all he wants, and he would probably stand by and laugh with some other guy that did the same, but as soon as that same guy treats Inara like a slave, and calls her property, Mal would take him out.

That love of freedom is where the 'Southern Gentleman'parallels to Mal's character break down. The South fought the Civil War to preserve white rich folks 'freedom' to own slaves. When I imagine a Southern Gentleman, I see a rich and spoiled slaver thinking themselves honorable and proud while they profit off of the suffering of their slaves. Maybe I'm predudiced.

BLAZINGBUG

Monday, April 12, 2004 9:09 PM

Even if you don't think he would have killed Jayne (which I think he would have), there's a better example of Mal not following his own words... Crow, Niska's henchman.

Guy pretty much wasn't armed when Mal booted him into the engine.

Just a side note: I'm not saying that Mal isn't a southern gentleman. My definition allows for kicking guys into an engine.

"Wacky fun..."

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Monday, April 12, 2004 9:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Okay, so now I know what Rifts is.
Then try this one. I reckon it's adult and literate enough. http://www.bartleby.com/65/ch/chivalry.html

And now look up King Arthur and chivalry - hate to break it to you, but he's as fictional as Mal Reynolds - hence my flippant point.

"I threw up on your bed"

ZOID

Monday, April 12, 2004 11:49 PM

Misguided by Voices wrote:

"...And now look up King Arthur and chivalry - hate to break it to you, but he's as fictional as Mal Reynolds - hence my flippant point."

Really? You mean no sword Excalibur? No Merlin? But surely the Boy King did pull the sword from the stone, as only he could?

I know you're just kidding, right?

Next you'll be saying there's no Ether Bunny, or that he wasn't the historical basis for anesthesiology...

RANDA

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 2:35 AM

I think Mal calls Inara a whore on occasion to drive her away, consciously or subconsciously.

In college, I knew a boy who said awful things to people -- insulted them and made them leave him -- because he had already been betrayed once by someone he trusted and thought of as a friend. He wanted to drive away anyone else with the ability to hurt him. It vexed him no end that I wouldn't listen to his words and stayed his friend.

Since the Battle of Serenity, the one thing Mal doesn't want to feel is an emotional attachment to anyone. He can't really avoid it -- it's in his nature to bond with his soldiers or his crew -- but it hurt so much to lose, he still fights his own nature.

Strangely enough, Inara appears to be doing the same to Mal with her constant comments about his "petty thievery." At the end of HoG, she leads up to her announcement that she's leaving by describing what happens when you become attached to people. It's almost like she's becoming too close to the crew of Serenity, and she too is looking for ways to distance herself -- to keep herself disconnected, as if being part of the crew is something to be avoided. Her efforts to help Mal's petty thieving in "Trash" and "The Message" notwithstanding, she seems as anxious to avoid deep emotional attachment as much as Mal.

Miranda

"You can't have everything. Where would you put it?" - Steven Wright

DELIA

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 3:13 AM

Oh, I think Mal was capable of killing Jayne. I think he meant to, and changed his mind at the last minute. Which is not a critism of Mal, because what Jayne did cut him to what I think is his core. (Think of the deleted scene from the pilot when Zoe explains to Simon that all Mal has left is the ship and the people on it.) The real question is, would he later have felt guilty if he had let Jayne get sucked out of Serenity.

MISSOURIFIREFLY

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 3:50 AM

If Mal had meant to kill Jayne, wouldn't he have just done it without all the talking? When he killed Niska's agent and Dobson, he was very decisive. It seems like the fact that he bothered to explain things to Jayne shows that he was trying to make a point. Just my opinion, though.

SIGMANUNKI

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 4:48 AM

Maybe, but, I think that Mal was almost giving Jayne a chance to repent. If the only thing that he has is on that ship, what is there is *very* valuable and worth saving. Add to that what he said to Simon about killing face to face and armed and he couldn't have just killed him.

Plus, he had to be sure that Jayne did what he thought he did, otherwise it'd just be killing. Which I think is just too against character for Mal.

----
"If you truly love the memory, you must set it free()!" -Me
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

THOREAU

Wednesday, April 14, 2004 1:48 PM

I believe Mal had every intention of killing Jayne, but because of the situation he had to do it carefully. Not just because Jayne is a big guy and relatively hard to kill, but because Jayne is a member of the crew. The captain can't just go killing off crewmembers without a damn good reason. Even if he has a damn good reason, he has to do it in such a way that he can do it alone and then explain it to the crew later. Especially when the kilee is as dangerous as Jayne, where any interruptions could be disastrous.
As Mal is moving on from the act of killing Jayne to the concequences of the act, explaining it to the crew, Jayne catches him with a display of decency and remorse. Or maybe just pride, but whatever it was it left Mal without the conviction to do the act or explain it afterwards.

Now, about Tracey. This is mentioned all the time, often listed as a plot inconsistency even, but it was done perfectly. I'm referring to the scene in The Message where Tracey takes Kaylee hostage and ends up getting shot. People keep saying that Mal or Zoe could have just explained the situation to him and everyone would have gotten out fine. That would be all well and good if they had a shared history of picking flowers together, but their history is in the military. A stupid private, which is exactly what Tracey was, who tries to strongarm his commander into doing something isn't going to get a nice explanation. He's going to be told to sit the down and shut the up. I'm certain it would never occur to Mal or Zoe to explain the situation to Tracey because as soon as he grabbed Kaylee and tried to force his way the situation became something completely different. In that moment the only thing going on in the universe as far as Mal and Zoe were concerned was that a kid who should be following orders is instead turning on the crew. He has to be dealt with expediently, then and only then can anything else be done.

t

Jayne: "These are stone killers, little man. They ain't cuddly like me."

NUR

Wednesday, April 14, 2004 2:58 PM

Quote:
Simon really is that much of a fool. He's smart, he can patch you up no matter how badly you've been punctured, but he's a fool. A selfish, arrogant fool.

Just out of curiosity, because I have a verydifferent opinion, why? Specifically the last bit. Whats your reasoning behind 'selfish, arrogant fool'?

Those who restrain desire, do so because thiers is weak enough to be restrained.
-William Blake

O my Lord! bestow wisdom on me, and join me with the righteous.
-Qur'an 26:83

http://www.thecherryorchard.com

DELIA

Friday, April 16, 2004 6:39 PM

Thoreau --

Thanks for a thoughtful explaination of something that I really had been wondering about (regarding Tracey). I'm not 100% certain I agree with you, but it was a perspective I hadn't even thought of. Now I've got to go rewatch the episode yet again!

THOREAU

Saturday, April 17, 2004 8:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nur:
Whats your reasoning behind 'selfish, arrogant fool'?

Simon Tam is a self-absorbed jerk who wants nothing more than to be a great surgeon on a core planet. Nothing, that is, except for getting his sister someplace safe. This one aspect of his character, which I hesitate to give him credit for because it’s such a basic human instinct, is his only redeeming quality. Sure he's useful, he heals the sick and treats the wounded, but that doesn't make him a good person. I don't believe that he's a doctor because he wants to help people. I believe he's a doctor because it's a very challenging, detail-oriented job that gives him a feeling of pride and control. Just the sort of thing that a self-absorbed, arrogant jerk can do and feel superior for having done. Maybe if the show had gone on a bit longer we would have seen a little more of Simon's character, but as it was there just wasn't much there. The only scene where I was impressed by Simon was when he had Jayne on the table in Trash and he told Jayne he would always be safe there. That was ballsy. Arrogant and foolish, but ballsy.

t

Jayne: "These are stone killers, little man. They ain't cuddly like me."

AMNESIAC

Saturday, April 17, 2004 9:05 AM

Simon is caring, nurturing, smart, and brave. He only comes off as arrogant because he's completely lost in his current situation, and socially inept. So he puts up a cold and superior exterior to mask his fear. He's used to only dealing with uptight and well educated people. Now he's in a working class environment where you are defined by your actions, and not the letters behind your name. He gave up everything he had to save his bratty kid sister. Which shows a strength of character his parents obviously didn't have. I like him. I'm sure he'd grow and relax as the series went on.

DEANNAMAY

Saturday, April 17, 2004 10:20 AM

I agree with you amnesiac, Simon is thoughtful, but was brought up in a household where station and accomplishment were everything it seems. He defines himself by what he does, not how he works with people. Caring for a sibling is not a given. A lot of people don't give a crap about their family. He is the one who stood up for his sister, not the parents who supposedly brought her into the world.

Simon is very truthful, about his accomplishments, he isn't bragging, just stating the facts. He is smart, he did graduate early, he did practice in an ER, he doesn't make these facts up. He brought it up to desmonstrate how smart his sister is, not himself. The subtleties of conversation are lost to him. Not that he isn't learning, but he didn't exactly get a lot of time.