Round 3: 'Tolerance' on American Universities???
POSTED BY: cartoon
UPDATED: Saturday, December 16, 2006 08:38
VIEWED: 5862
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Here's something to chew on. In an infinite universe, anything that has a nonzero chance of happening MUST eventually happen, given enough time. Accident and design ultimately converge to the same outcome. If a creator set the universe in motion then let it go, anything that happens afterward is by design, but you'd never know it. Evolution does not rule out the possiblity that the whole process was set in motion deliberately, it just doesn't consider the question at all, not the least because its not disprovable. Some people who accept evolutionary theory may also reject the concept of a creator, but that's not an integral feature of evolution.
You know, whether anyone agrees with that perception or not, still, that's probably the most reasoned and intelligent thing i've heard in RWED for months now.
Bravo.
-Frem
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Originally posted by citizen:Quote:Or in still other words:
Originally posted by Antimason:Quote:
" Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"
or in other words, we are not to idolize the creation over the Creator.. as the secret societes founded on the ancient mysteries do
Art is evil.
now you know that is not what is meant, the reality is that God cannot be symbolised. i know you would not argue with me that the history of the catholic church and vatican has been a complete perversion of morality; that is because the 'church' became the power of THIS WORLD.. which Jesus says is of the Devil. the Vaticans motivation had nothing to do with the message of Jesus but the motives of men seeking material gain. i dont believe Jesus' message was meant to be institutionalized.. it is a personal worldview and mindset, not a physical symbol or representation.
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Originally posted by rue:
Just to further elaborate on my question:
"Where do you draw the line between acceptable science and heresy?" I find it odd that Judaism doesn't seem to have a problem with evolution. (And I see Judaism as closer to the OT than Xtians.)
heres the thing though- modern day Israel, and the babylonian talmud that they use is NOT the same as the Torah; Abraham and Moses would never have tolerated such an occultic forgery to pass as the scripture of the Lord Jesus Christ. the people of Israel in Jesus' time, who weren not true believers and followers in Yahweh, turned out to be the ones who murdered him; and he was yahweh in the flesh. Jews today deny Jesus was their messiah and God, which according to the NT is the mark of antichrist. current Jews do not take the Torah(ot) literally, which says many times that God created the heavens and earth in 6 days. the reason the Pharisaic jews didnt recognize Jesus as their prophesied messiah is because they had become corrupted by the surrounding cultures. and now today they are reading a luciferian perversion that graciously accomodates evolutionary theory or any alternative but what the Torah actually teaches
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When it comes to Xtians, back in the day, when ordinary people routinely slaughtered animals for food (and each other in wars for that matter) it was heresy to autospy a human. So despite common experience there were all sorts of fanciful ideas on human blood circulation.
what did anyone know 'back in the day'? im assuming atleast a few hundred years ago.. i know medical science was primitave to the point of carnality. friend believing in God does not blind us to the physical recognizable laws at work, we accept what can be proven. ultimately we just have a premise that states that God established these laws 'in the beginning'
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If you wanted to know about it you referred to the bible. If you were enlightened (and literate) you looked to the Greeks and Romans - the classical writings.
and having seen some of those writings(in hindsight) i feel redeemed and further convinced that their is some historical truth to the worldwide "god myths". the Greeks and Romans were not dillusional, and they believed in supernatural deities and related "mythologies" that fit quite appropriately with the underlying biblical archetypes.
most importantly though is that the bible scripturally never discourages science as long as it is truthful. in the case of the Catholic church and the darker years.. that kind of societal totalitarianism comes from manipulative social heirarchies with the motive for earthly gain
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Science provided an alternative - if you wanted to know, you looked - for yourself.
And back in the day, autopsies were illegal as well. So the people who looked were miscreants of the worst sort. But look they did and founded modern medicine.
i see how youre framing this.. but its almost literally a comparison of apples and oranges. the bible is not a science book, it was not meant to be - and is not an obstacle to science, truth or fact(emphasizing all synonymns). we believe the theory that God created all the matter in the universe. your theory is that nothing existed prior to the 'big bang', that all the known chemicals and particles and minerals came from a single source; but then again it came from nothing, a vacuum, an empty void, the size of a particle or something rediculous. even then.. where did the particle come from? this is a fundemental question.. 'something from something, or something from nothing? unless i have it wrong thats what the theory comes down to.. and neither theory has tangeable evidence we can draw conclusively from. the universe IMO is indicative of an intelligent 'design(er)', and likewise i believe science when used honostly was intended by God for us to study and appreciate his creation with; not to suppress(as some so graciously insert into our belief system)
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But the idea that humans were somehow like animalsNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Actually Anti, I know nothing of the sort, what I'm trying to do is show you how easy it is to read anything into a given passage in the Bible. Let me break it down:
Originally posted by antimason:
now you know that is not what is meant, the reality is that God cannot be symbolised.
"Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"
Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, I read that as pretty much any art work, painting sculpture video etc.
of anything that is in heaven above Okay no problem there, that's God.
or that is in the earth beneath, People, animals, landscapes, cars, cities etc all things on the Earth.
or that is in the water under the earth Fish, Whales, Dolphins etc.
To be honest it sounds like you can't make a likeness of anything in Human perception, pretty tightly hooked up. The fuzzy areas would be planes/birds in flight and Space, but you could argue those are covered by Heaven. I don't know that passage is preventing you from making images of God, I know that's the traditional interpretation, but really it reads quite different.
Quote:Which I couldn't agree with more, though why you brought it up is somewhat puzzling. However what we call Christianity has been shaped and more or less created by the Roman Catholic Church. What you seem to talk about is more a Jesus Cult (okay Christianity itself is a Jesus cult but you know what I mean) and doesn't bear much relation to the common idea of Christianity, nor in my experience do most Christians. Take Cartoon, a man who obviously opened the Bible and managed to miss all of Jesus teachings.
i know you would not argue with me that the history of the catholic church and vatican has been a complete perversion of morality; that is because the 'church' became the power of THIS WORLD.. which Jesus says is of the Devil. the Vaticans motivation had nothing to do with the message of Jesus but the motives of men seeking material gain. i dont believe Jesus' message was meant to be institutionalized.. it is a personal worldview and mindset, not a physical symbol or representation.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:Before I answer the question of where the singularity came from perhaps you can tell me where this intelligent creator came from?
your theory is that nothing existed prior to the 'big bang', that all the known chemicals and particles and minerals came from a single source; but then again it came from nothing, a vacuum, an empty void, the size of a particle or something rediculous. even then.. where did the particle come from? this is a fundemental question.. 'something from something, or something from nothing? unless i have it wrong thats what the theory comes down to.. and neither theory has tangeable evidence we can draw conclusively from. the universe IMO is indicative of an intelligent 'design(er)', and likewise i believe science when used honostly was intended by God for us to study and appreciate his creation with; not to suppress(as some so graciously insert into our belief system)
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Hey Anti- I had replied to you but I think it got lost in the shuffle so I'd appreciate your take:
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ANTI: one thing that bothers me is that christian symbols and references no longer seem appropriate in public places
SIGNY: I don't think there is a problem with religious displays in "public" (ie easily viewable) places, just in government-funded ones. Whether businesses, homes, churches, or private organizations choose to display religious symbols is pretty much up to them. The fact that businesses seem to be downplaying religiosity is simply because they're going after the broadest market. In other words, they're following the money.
ANTI: Meanwhile we allow outright luciferian occultism to go unnoticed throughout government(and corporate america). i hate to beat a dead horse about this, but people know that our founders were masons... i think its time theyre told that MASONRY IS A RELIGION, and our government has, down to the T adopted its image- we just never here any cries about it. the reason 'in god we trust' is still around is because their god, Lucifer, is still alive and socially acceptable
SIGNY: "in god we trust" was not present on most currency until relatively recently. It was added to some coins during the Civil War, and to most currency during the 1950's (anti-Communist McCarthy scare). I haven't specifically looked it up, but some of the Founding Fathers were prolly Freemasons. Whoever designed the currency certainly was! But I'm not sure that is a potent organization any more. While I agree that there is a conspiracy to "take over the world" I tend to lay that at the feet of capitalists, not Freemasons. And capitalists make a religion of money, not Lucifer. (Altho, come to think of it, Hugo Chavez said he smelt sulfur at the UN. Maybe he's on to something....)
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Interested in your general take on Mason/Luciferian v corporate power. And also specifically what Luciferian symbols in the corporate world?
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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AntiMason -
I'm replying by translating your post as fairly as I can - putting them into my understanding of your thoughts. I'm not using your entire quotes in order to save space, but anyone with an interest will be pointed in the right direction:
heres the thing though- modern day Israel, and the babylonian talmud that they use ...
They read and believe in the wrong script. They believe in unholy things. My script is right. Mine says they are the antichrist.
believing in God does not blind us to the physical recognizable laws at work
Science is OK if it's commonly accepted by similar religious people.
and having seen some of those writings(in hindsight) i feel redeemed ...
Two selected religions seem to validate my beliefs about the universe.
most importantly though is that the bible scripturally never discourages science as long as it is truthful ...
But when science clashes with the 'correct' biblical writings, the biblical writings are to be believed.
tell me how this worldview improves the morality of a person(comparative to mine)?
People need to be manipulated with unprovable bribes and threats to behave well.
admit atleast that among the christian community, the bible is clear that our ancestors were Adam and Eve ... and the creation was not subject to this cycle of death and decay ...
The bible provides the history we need. We don't need to use science to explore causes.
we dont personally believe that all living species share a common ancestor ...
This is one example where my correct bible has the only truth, which trumps scientific thought.
you believe ... nature itself ... evolved from nothing.
It's easier for me to think of a god who came from nothing and created a universe from nothing than it is to think of a universe that came from nothing on its own.
science should not be taken as a religion, since it is not all knowing.
My beliefs comfort me.
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I was heartened at your reference to the difference between science and religion.
Sincerely,
Rue
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posted by Citizen-
To be honest it sounds like you can't make a likeness of anything in Human perception, pretty tightly hooked up. The fuzzy areas would be planes/birds in flight and Space, but you could argue those are covered by Heaven. I don't know that passage is preventing you from making images of God, I know that's the traditional interpretation, but really it reads quite different.
'
well.. i get your point, but i think it would be hard to justify that interpretation when taking the whole of biblical literature into account; especially when considering what is known about the symbolism used by occult secret societies, i have no doubt that God was referring to idolatry(which Wikipedia says : "Hebrew terms for idolatory include avodah zarah (foreign worship) and avodat kochavim umazalot (worship of planets and constellations), or in other words, worshipping the creation above the Creator. the civilizations that did not know God literally worshipped the image of physical material objects.. be they planets, or their former inhabitants(fallen angels/annunaki)
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Which I couldn't agree with more, though why you brought it up is somewhat puzzling.
well my point was that Jesus says that this world, and this age are under the control of the 'prince of the kingdom of the air', or Lucifer; the reason the catholic church became such a monstrousity is because it became the queen of this world, and was led astray and became an apostate institution and a perversion. the catholic church sought earthly rule and material gain, which Jesus himself says are desires 'of the flesh'. the Vatican is in so many ways aligned with the motives of the globalist NWO occultists, that it doesnt require much of an imagination to see whats really happening here
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However what we call Christianity has been shaped and more or less created by the Roman Catholic Church. What you seem to talk about is more a Jesus Cult (okay Christianity itself is a Jesus cult but you know what I mean) and doesn't bear much relation to the common idea of Christianity, nor in my experience do most Christians.
maybe thats my point.. youve heard me make the arguement before that a christian is someone who does the will of Jesus- a Jesus Cult would be sure to follow the teachings of Jesus, since we believe he is thee God manifest; the Roman Catholic church conversely was an idolatrous, authoritarian, suppressive *worldy institution fundementally opposed to the teachings of Jesus. besides exploiting Jesus' image... its impossible to reconcile the two. ultimately this is exactly why God was never meant to be symbolized or insitutionalized
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Before I answer the question of where the singularity came from perhaps you can tell me where this intelligent creator came from?
well.. technically the burden of proof is not on me, since my belief is an admitted religion. to answer your question i dont know where God came from... but since evolutionary theories are considered hard science, i have to wonder where did all the known matter come from, if prior to the big bang there was just an empty(void)
this was the first chance ive had to get on.. but ill get to your guys' others questions later (just bear with me)
i
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Disregard.
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