Round 3: 'Tolerance' on American Universities???
POSTED BY: cartoon
UPDATED: Saturday, December 16, 2006 08:38
VIEWED: 5862
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Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
They say the same thing. How is Earley incorrect in his assessment?
Simple. The e-mail I quoted is the start of the controversy.
Yes, if that was the start (and from my own research into the subject, it would appear that it was -- assuming there wasn't more to Nichol's remarks, subsequent to this), then Earley is incorrect in his use of the term "subsequent compromise".
However, this is still a case of political correctness run amok, and only one of many such examples where institutions are going out of their way to remove anything even remotely associated with the Christian faith. (Even though, as I stated previously, I could care less about the removal of "objects" -- it's the hostility directed toward Christianity which disturbs me about the whole thing.)
And, contrary to otherwise held beliefs, erecting (or maintaining an already erected) object which symbolizes a tenent of the Christian faith (even if it is the only faith represented) is not, under any circumstances, "Congress making a law respecting the establishment of a religion."
The same people who wrote the U.S. Constitution also offered Christian prayers at government functions, and chose to take the oath of office on a Christian Bible. Certainly, if such actions were to be construed (as apparently they are by some oversensitive folks these days) as "Congress making a law respecting the establishment of a religion", they would never have done so.
After all, Washington swore on a Bible and said many "Christian" prayers in public speeches before most, if not all, of the very people who wrote the Constitution --- none of whom (at least to my knowledge) ever seemed to accuse him of "establishing a religion".
Again, for those who have trouble understanding what a government-established religion really looks like, check out Iran and Saudi Arabia (just to name a few).
Further information I've found on this William & Mary cross-removal controversary can be found here...
http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD/MGArticle/
RTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1149191783641
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTk3Njc2MWM5OWNjZmY3MmNjYzUzMGJiN
jZlZWFiY2E=
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Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
Yes, if that was the start (and from my own research into the subject, it would appear that it was -- assuming there wasn't more to Nichol's remarks, subsequent to this), then Earley is incorrect in his use of the term "subsequent compromise".
And, if Earley is incorrect in the use of the term "subsequent compromise," then a lot of the ooomph in the piece goes out the window.
Here's what I got out of Earley's commentary: "They permanently removed a cross. From a chapel. On a formerly Anglican campus. Why do they hate Christianity? But Christians fought back. And now, because the President is a money hungry man of no moral character, he caved and at least the cross will be available some times."
Here's what I got from the savethewrencross.org timeline: "Before, the cross was there unless someone asked for it to be temporarily removed. At least the heathens had to wait and be reminded that, while the chapel is for all students, the default are Protestants. Now, we're the ones who have to be inconvenienced by waiting around for the cross to be brought out of storage. Oh, the inhumanity."
I have a simple solution. They use a cross hologram that can be turned off and on via a switch. The default position is off, but you can have your cross at the flick of a finger.
I'm reminded of a conversation I had with my boss about organ donation. He remarked that in some parts of Europe the default is yes (if you don't do anything, your organs will be donated upon your death). In California, the default is no. And the results are unsurprising. Even though signifying you are a donor is a simple process the vast majority of Californians don't.
At the chapel, the old default was Protestant. Now the default is everyone. See how it pisses people off when they don't get the preferential treatment they are accustomed to?
* edited to add: In doing a quick search to make sure my boss wasn't completely off base I stumbled upon the following phrase, "policymakers need to be aware of the implicit messages conveyed by their choice of default." ( http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/soc/policydefaults06.asp ). Now, although this was sorta from a different domain, I think this really gets at the heart of what's going on at William and Mary. When you are used to implicit organizational support for your beliefs and that support is removed you are going to feel like you are being discriminated against. Nobody likes to give up privilege, especially privilege they never realized they were benefitting from until it was taken away.
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Just to put my two cents worth into the discussion, I think the whole "political correctness" movement is a sad commentary on our current culture. It is a sympton of a much greater problem in my view. We have become a society overly sensative to the slightest irritation. What ever happened to the "sticks and stones" philosophy? Everyone seems to be walking around looking for a reason to be offended. I see it everyday working with the public, unfortunately. "Political Correctness" is the result of this "what can I find to offend me today" mentality. What is even more disturbing is that no one seems immune from this pervasive habit. Christians, Liberals, Conservatives, Athiests, you name it.
They removed a cross from permanent display in a chapel on a publicly funded college campus, SO WHAT!?
There is a cross on permenant display in a chapel on a publicly funded college campus somewhere in this country (don't doubt it!), SO WHAT!?
The only people being offended by either of these incidents are people desperately looking for a reason to be offended. It is a self fulfilling prophecy and we shouldn't be surprised when we find ourselves offended as a result.
Didn't mean to get in a rant gorram it, but I'm offended by all these people who can't seem to go a day without being offended! 
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WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
*FMF streaks through the thread, while trying not to spill her fruity, tropical umbrella drink*
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
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Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
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FORSAKEN original
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del
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Quote:May I say that you... and the overly sensitive alumni ... are part of the PC problem? You see "hostility" when there is only ... even-handedness. Should Muslims view the lack of a crescent moon/star as "hostile"? Should Jews veiw the lack of a star of David and a Minorah as "hostile"? What about Hindus? Confucians? Buddhists?
However, this is still a case of political correctness run amok, and only one of many such examples where institutions are going out of their way to remove anything even remotely associated with the Christian faith. (Even though, as I stated previously, I could care less about the removal of "objects" -- it's the hostility directed toward Christianity which disturbs me about the whole thing.)
If not, why are the people complaining ... Christians?
Most of you really don't "get it". The Founding Fathers were not Jesus-believers in drag. They really did think that there should be a "wall of separation" between Church and state, and that means the Xtian religion too. I guess at this point the conversation turns to AntiMason.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Quote:
originall posted by Signym-
Should Muslims view the lack of a crescent moon/star as "hostile"? Should Jews veiw the lack of a star of David and a Minorah as "hostile"? What about Hindus? Confucians? Buddhists?
not neccessairly, but its percieved as hostile to be told to take it down i think. we all understand this but the point is that every individual has the right of expression, so whether youre a muslim or bhuddist or humanist you are free to 'express' or adopt that worldview without descrimination. i think its also fair to say that in the western world atheists are hardly neglected with their share of representation, since the de facto 'genesis' of mans origins(evolution; which im sorry but its a speculative theory) has become the standard taught among academics as tangeable proven science- what more could you ask for?
one thing that bothers me is that christian symbols and references no longer seem appropriate in public places, and appear to infringe on the rights of others... meanwhile we allow outright luciferian occultism to go unnoticed throughout government(and corporate america). i hate to beat a dead horse about this, but people know that our founders were masons... i think its time theyre told that MASONRY IS A RELIGION, and our government has, down to the T adopted its image- we just never here any cries about it. the reason 'in god we trust' is still around is because their god, Lucifer, is still alive and socially acceptable, so long as people are unable to contemplate the significance of his associative symbols
Cartoon made my point which is that our body is our temple, as it contains within itself all that is needed for worship; but just as importantly is that God says
Quote:or in other words, we are not to idolize the creation over the Creator.. as the secret societes founded on the ancient mysteries do
" Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"
Quote:
Most of you really don't "get it". The Founding Fathers were not Jesus-believers in drag. They really did think that there should be a "wall of separation" between Church and state, and that means the Xtian religion too. I guess at this point the conversation turns to AntiMason.
well.. the thing about masonry is that it shares a lot of archetypical truths with christianity. some masons may have joined as christians, but those that accept Jesus as savior are excluded to the outer circle and led astray from the trusted secrets; at its core it is wholeheartedly luciferian. the bible says 'do not worship graven images', while the Masons idolize an Eyptian god atop a pyramid- and i could go on and on about the pentagram layout of DC, the washington obelisk, or the statue of Mars(the god of war) outside the US capitol building; but i dont really need to.. its all there, its right on the dollar bill, and its not christian, but 'pagan' symbolism.
its late and id rather not go through all of it now, but do your own search- just understand that masons are gradually enlightened and methodically decieved, and would not be inclined to reveal secrets to you. masons recognize diception as part of their religion.. just as the layers of the pyramid symbolizes, with the ignorant profane providing the base as it ascends to the giver of 'knowledge' lucifer.
i hate to say this but people tend to revert to their reptile brains when they hear the word 'conspiracy'.. but its neccessary to look outside the mainstream for the truth on this issue. heres a site ive posted before, but its consistant with what i read elsewhere http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/ read through and find anything, just notice the common theme
Quote:
"when our fathers declared 'a new order of the ages', they were acting on an ancient hope THAT IS MEANT TO BE FULLFILLED" George W Bush
- 2005 Inaugural address
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about the William and Mary chapel deal:
Is it still a consecrated space? If it is, then it's a church sanctuary, and use for any secular purpose is sacrelige. If it is, it should be under the authority of a clergyman, and a church, not a university. If it is, then the cross is a critical part, and should stay. If it is, then no government money should be spent on it.
If it isn't still a consecrated space, then it's OK for use as a meeting hall, lecture room, recreation space, architectural model, whatever.
And the cross should come or go, depending on the wishes of the user. But a serious formal trafitional clergyman wouldn't want to use it for religious purposes, wouldn't want its scared symbols desecrated.
Seems I remember a scene from the movie Alice's Restaurant, if any of ya are old enough to have seen it. Alice, Ray and the hippies bought a Protestant church that was closing, to live in ,and form their commune around. The church bishops held a Ceremony of DeSanctification, declaring that the property was no longer holy, and was, forever more, totally secular.
I once did a youth show for a church. It was part of the Youth Service Sunday, and was a recognized service, held at the regular time and presided over by the minister. The play we were doing was in place of the sermon.
While discussing where to perform the play, i mentioned that I was uncomfortable acting, pretending, on the altar. I was also concerned given the traditional attitude of churches toward actors; that actors were disreputable, mostly criminals and ne'er do wells, and that actresses were prostitutes. ( All true attitudes, 100 years ago or so.). The minister explained that that was no longer the official attitude of the Methodist church, and it was OK with him.
But since I was so concerned, he suggested that we perform in the Social Hall instead of the sanctuary. The SH had been the sanctuary originally, when the church was first built, but as the congregation grew, a new sanctuary was built, and it was downgraded.
We held the service there, it and the play were a great success, and I got some comments from the old timers about how great it was to worship in the old room.
ANd I felt much better- I didn't have to do something that might have disrespected Holy Ground.
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Just out of curiosity, NewOldBrownCoat, is the consecrated-space-not-used-for-anything-secular thing part of the Anglican tradition? Or, I guess it would be more accurate to ask about the Episcopalian tradition since the chapel was in use after the Revolution.
Shifting... to kind of put a period to my thoughts of this "controversy." ...
Here's a photo of the chapel from 2002 with the cross visible: http://www.wm.edu/about/wren/wrenchapel/htmls/wm07.html
And here's a photo from 2002 of the altar without the cross: http://www.wm.edu/about/wren/wrenchapel/htmls/altar04.html
It's a good thing no one who is easily offended happened to be in the chapel while the second picture was being taken.
Shifting some more... I'm not entirely sure if this is relevant to the topic at hand but Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (SBC) banned the promotion of speaking in tongues (a practice more associated with Pentecostal churches but apparently making headway into the SBC) on campus back in October.
Now this is a private college and I have absolutely no problem with their board of trustees banning any discussion by faculty of the religious practices of other denominations. After all, it is a school run by the Southern Baptist Convention so why should the professors talk about Pentecostal practices? That said, am I off line in seeing this as a clear example of intolerance?
http://www.baylor.edu/Lariat/news.php?action=story&story=42501
(couldn't find anything on the SWBTS website other than an announcement about the trustee's meeting and didn't feel like linking to a F*xNews article so you get a Baylor link).
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Quote:Or in still other words:
Originally posted by Antimason:Quote:
" Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"
or in other words, we are not to idolize the creation over the Creator.. as the secret societes founded on the ancient mysteries do
Art is evil.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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