The Destruction of the US Dollar
POSTED BY: JaynezTown
UPDATED: Thursday, October 16, 2008 00:43
VIEWED: 21107
PAGE 1 of 2
Anyone think there is a possibility of the Dollar imploding in the next 3 years?
Im talking about the logical perspective here and not some wacky political stuff on Bush, Kerry etc etc
If you stick to the facts, the price of oil, the rates of the US currency, food inflation, the jobless numbers, the debt levels. And take these kind of factual figures into account the Dollar does not look healthy anymore
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I have come to post online today to warn people who have savings in cash the worst is not over yet
and for a long time many fellow Browncoats, the CNN/Fox/BBC Financial advisers and Economic people have warned
well we're doing the wrong during a definite slowdown! I know debts were involved in creating the Depression in the '30s, a less middle America has not learned. There were American people owed money on stocks, yet the stocks were worthless so people defaulted, resulting in bank failures and people losing just about everything they had including their homes and almost the clothes of their backs. Why has the dollar been falling like a rock, this is partly down to the insane spending in the Whitehouse, run a deficit long enough and it becomes less attractive to buy your currency.
Food prices are going through the roof, even Milk is becoming that The White Gold - and Oil prices have risen from 30 bucks a barrel to over 120 bucks a barrel and they are still rising every day
Oil is rising to insane levels. We might have already reached peak oil and all oil wells, oil fields and oil provinces are exposed to a phenomenon called decline. With the growth of China and India the world now consumes over 29 billion barrels of oil per year plus there is big political unrest in producing countries sitting front seat to the Iraq war allowing speculators to drive prices through the roof. The Whitehouse needs to cutback on over spending, it is not smart for them to allow the Arab states and China to accumulate so many US dollars in their banks, giving them leverage over us. The the depreciation of the US$ $ $ has contributed to the rise in oil prices with countries like Iran making threats to price Oil in the European currency Euros instead of dollars. Debts in Washington are too high and we are giving more control of our economy to the Saudis and the Chinese.
If you have savings you should move them out of dollars and into other areas. Moving into commodities is a defensive asset, so this tends to rise when other things like your currency goes down. The collapse of the US housing market forced an entire sector of the financial world to suffer vast losses. Other Economies of the world also feel the pain because the less the US trades, the less money Japan, Europe, India, China also make because of loss the the US - this is a global economy. The Fed's recent freak out wasn't so much at the housing crises or the subprime itself. 
The Fed freaking out was about the risk of cascade failure in the financial system and remember US citizens do not own our central bank it is a bank with a lot of private individuals behind it. Lessons are to be learned from the Asian markets, the Japanese also faced a housing bubble and lost a decade and a half because of companies going bankrupt, scandals and their Japanese banks facing pain, the Japan stocks Nikkei are at about a third of the level they were at 19 years ago. The DowJones is in trouble, I see the DJ stock index was over 14,000 last year, so it has come down since then. One idea is to change your dollars for Gold, Corn or Copper or selected currency that look strong like the Swiss Franc and this will help protect your money in the long run. Its not only you who feels the pain the average standard of living for each US citizen has dropped considerably since Y2K and the super rich have gotten richer at the expense of the middle class. Things must be altered, pushed in a better direction in the next months otherwise everything will be sacrificed in order to protect Washington's ability to borrow from powerful nations abroad, giving them even more power over our future.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Just make sure NOT to put that shit in a bank, or even a safe deposit box.
Not-So-Safe-Deposit Boxes: States Seize Citizens' Property to Balance Their Budgets
http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=4832471
I got burned by Old Court, I will *never* trust a bank to handle my funds again, not after having them drop the barriers and refuse to give me MY money.
Got nailed again by Signet, savings account closed for "lack of activity" while I was in Basic/AIT and there went some MORE money.
Fuck em, never again.
And if you think I trust my stuff anywhere that's out of my immediate reach and custody, you'd have to be nuts.
Money for Nothing
(A good HARD lesson in keeping custody of your own valuables!)
http://news.silverseek.com/TedButler/1193161018.php
Make damn sure that, when push comes to shove, your resources will BE there, in YOUR care, not in someone elses "vault" that doesn't really exist since they've long sold it - not on paper no one will honor when the chips come down, and certainly not in a bank which will drop the barriers and steal it to pay their own debts, hell no.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis
Read my Sigline, curse it - history IS repeating itself, and THIS time around do NOT make the same dumbass mistakes of trusting a financial institution, or the Gov.
The FSLIC imploded when the markers came in, and those poor stupid ignorant foolish assholes who believed it protected them got nothing but a royal reaming.
The FDIC is every goddamn bit as insolvent if not more - so do you REALLY expect a better result this time around.
Not that I care, I am just sayin, don't be fuckin stupid - these assholes cannot be trusted, and if you place your trust, and your resources, in their hands, well, you deserve what happens.
Having delivered that warning my conscience required, I've nothing further to offer on the topic.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Silly JaynezTown, why all this alarmism? AURaptor has already assured us that it's just a smallish downturn, and that we're all safe, financially speaking.
Peeps just gotta stop trusting their own observations & conclusions. That's what leads to societal collapse.Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
We have forgotten two lessons
the lesson of corrupt banking from the first great depression
and the lesson of energy supply from the 1970s Oil shocks
We need Energy-Independence
Every time we use energy or buy gasoline - 400 billion dollars goes overseas to Middle Eastern states that have people who are increasingly hostile to our way of life
Independent Energy and Freedom from Oil Cartels
Our power needs to be backed by Nuclear or Solar or something that can provide us our own needs, otherwise we can end up being chained up by Oil Sheiks
Is an issue of Economic Security and National Security
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
AURaptor has already assured us that it's just a smallish downturn, and that we're all safe
Watch this U-video,
its not just Housing or Iraq that is causing the dollar to sink
through many areas of over-spending the US could face a Financial crisis
There are other huge burdens besides to dotcom bubble ending, or the housing sector or Haliburton stealing money from our taxes to rebuild Iraq. The United States government is over spending not just in one area but in multiple areas like Medicare, failure in preparing retirement of baby booming generation, social security and if things are not acted upon in the next 3 years this could be the start of a financial tsunami
Watch this youtube
The Whitehouse is living beyond its means and US Immorality will the lead the Dollar to Bankruptcy
The American people cannot continue to consume $795 billion dollars more each year than the economy produces at home. The risk of a dollar collapse is never far away with debts at these levels. Un-pegging the Dollar from Gold and setting it to the value of Oil might have been the biggest mistake. During the Nixon and Vietnam years the Coinage Act provided the death sentence for anyone convicted of debasing U.S. coins and today the Dollar is backed up by NOTHING. The U.S. dollar, in terms of gold, has been devalued by 80%, or looking at it in another way, only 20% of the dollar's value remains. The Saudis and Asian central banks are trapped between the necessity to lower their dollar reserves, the need to buy dollars to keep their local currency stable and eventually to buy dollars when its rate is in danger to fall on the global currency markets, but if push comes to shove they might dump their dollars for another currency like European currency Euros. Iraq knew how much this was costing them so they decided to dump the Dollar. At time time the Euro was pretty worthless, it was weak and people saw the currency as monopoly money. Saddam’s switch to the Euro on in 2001 made him a lot of cash, the Euro started to become stable and strong and teher was even talk of it replacing the Dollar as the Global Currency but this all ended with the US invasion in 2003. It might not be fair to compare our current situation to the First Great Depression or the Oil Shock of the 1970s but many of the problems that sank the Soviet Union now endanger the United States of America. BinLaden's plan was not to win the war but to bankrupt the US economy. Over Spending is hurting the US Economy and like the Soviet Union in the late 1980s, it has a huge, well-equipped and very expensive military bogged down fighting Muslim freedom fighters in foreign lands. Also, an unstable currency and energy shortfalls linked to peaking oil production and horrendously unfavorable capital account and trade balances is resulting in runaway foreign debt, selling off our nation to places like China and Saudi Arabia.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
i intend to burn my money as it is more usefull now as a fuel than as currency .i have also found other uses for the dollar as insulation for attics and toilet roll plus when added to water makes a great paper machee which can then be turned to infinite usess from hats to car body work .the dollar due to its abundance will soon be able to power cars by combustion engine and is a lot cleaner than oil to the enviroment .the dollar providing power for our future
im just going out,i may be some time
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by miike:
i intend to burn my money as it is more usefull now as a fuel than as currency .i have also found other uses for the dollar as insulation for attics and toilet roll plus when added to water makes a great paper machee which can then be turned to infinite usess from hats to car body work .
That sounds ridiculous and far fetched
Israel Comedy show
but it has happened, in post WW1 Germany the Kaiser (king) lost his power, during the Weimar period Germans suffered from inflation and German housewives started to burn money as fuel. The Banknotes of Zimbabwe have collapsed thanks to dictator Mugabe and his thugs and people also watched in horror from 1999–2002 as Argentine currency imploded during the economic crisis. The collapse of the US dollar is going to have much greater impact on the global economy and international political landscape than the collapse of the Argentinean peso ever did. Today OPEC nations and China have already been discussing about diversifying their sovereign wealth funds and other nations are talking about the Euro becoming the world's reserve currency. The Whitehouse is in a bind today. If they lift interest rates to try and support the dollar, it will increase the size of the US budget deficit, plus increase the possibility that the economy would go into a tailspin. The level of personal and corporate debt in the USA has sky rocketed so much, that a sudden increase in interest rates would likely bring about an economic collapse. Either way, unless we act fast in the next 3 yrs America is in deep trouble.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
yeah i know that 'that was like the bad taste joke. first saw paper money with low value being used for other things in eygpt as all their money was paper the lowest note i think 10 paisa or something was being used by the locals as cheap toilet paper so when getting change i would always tell the locals to keep it.but really being alarmist will actually deflate the worth of the currency espesially if a lot of people put their money in other assets this will deflate the value the best way to help a country out of recession is for the people to spend spend spend
im just going out,i may be some time
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
just saw the isreali comedy thing it was quite funny till the rather shocking portrayal of condi rice i mean thats a pretty low impression in my book and border line racist or maybe im a bit too sensitve sometimes i dont know
im just going out,i may be some time
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
That number is wrong
The debt isn't 6.164 Tril
The total U.S. debt was approximately $9.2455 Trillion that's trillion with a T
Where Trillion = 1000 Billion
or
9 , 2 4 5 , 5 0 0 , 0 0 0 , 0 0 0 dollars and . 00 cents
The debt clock will be broken by the end of the year because it will have run out of numbers
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
The National Debt Clock in April 2008 said U.S. debt was $9.5 trillion. Add to this math unfunded Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security obligations and it's almost $ 60 trillion !!!!
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:We should have voted for a CONSERVATIVE Republican for President then, dontcha think?
Originally posted by JaynezTown:
The National Debt Clock in April 2008 said U.S. debt was $9.5 trillion. Add to this math unfunded Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security obligations and it's almost $ 60 trillion !!!!
Not the adventurist, big-government, militaristic, pro-deficit guy that's in there now...
Just sayin' isall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
The dollar won't implode due to government spending, or else Carter would have ended our economy instead of just setting it back 7 years.
The thing to keep an eye on is the oil/Euro/Dollar relationship. The oil standard switched from U.S Dollar to Euro, and that could be a problem.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Back during the Carter years we still made things, manufactured stuff, you could buy radios, cars and so forth that were all made in the USA and the world was not so internationalised. One of a whole wide range of modern threats to economic stability could materialise and deliver a massive new shock to the world economy. Back during the Carter years there was also no alternative to the Dollar but today people can globalise trade by selling Steel, Oil and so forth in the European currency. In New York City some traders have already switched to the new currency. When Economists talk of the European notes getting above the Dollar, these are savage blows to the Dollar and the Dollar has weakened against a whole wide range of currencies. Strangely we should be thanking the Chinese, if they were not financing our debts the Dollar would Implode. Some accuse when the Dollar does finally collapse, it will be expected and be engineered by powerful people like the BillGates of the world, the Rothchilds, Rockefellers, Warren Buffets. With the implosion of a currency people get desperate for trade, money etc the NAFTA super tollway from Mexico to Canada and the NAU might have already lead the foundations for a currency take over and the NAU. The billions and billions of dollars China has invested in the flagging American currency will be worthless. The Chinese and American political leaders will have to negotiate the exchange rate to the new Amero. This will then force the creation of the North American Union. This will be the move to replace the Dollar with a new N. American currency
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Eight Reasons Food Prices Will Keep Rising
By Jeffrey Strain (07/07/08)
http://www.mainstreet.com/eight-reasons-food-prices-will-keep-rising?p
uc=msgoogle&cm_ven=MSGoogle
Quote:
Be prepared -- food is going to become more expensive, even if oil prices stabilize.
Agriculture tends to be heavily dependent on energy for fueling tractors and field equipment, as well as having a heavy reliance on petroleum-based fertilizers and herbicides. But what most people don't realize is that even if oil prices level off, food prices are likely to continue to rise.
Here are some reasons food prices will continue to increase.
Bees
The number of bees has been dramatically declining over the last few years. In 2006, Colony Collapse Disorder wiped out 30% to 90% of beekeeper hives. The losses continued last year through this year with over 30% of hives being destroyed in both 2007 and 2008.
The exact cause of Colony Collapse Disorder is not known. Since roughly 75% of flowering plants rely on pollination to help them reproduce, bees are an important link in the chain that produces much of the food that we eat. Without bees to pollinate crops, the crops can't bear fruit, causing crop yields to drop. The end result is higher prices in the supermarket for these foods.
Hoarding
A growing number of countries have sharply curbed food exports in order to ensure an adequate supply of food at affordable prices for their country. While this trend is a much bigger problem for poor countries that rely heavily on imported food than the U.S., it also puts pressure on world food prices including those foods being imported to the U.S.
To make matters worse, the hoarding creates the perception of food shortages, which can lead to more hoarding and further increases food prices.
World Demand for Food
There is a growing demand for food around the world with the emergence of a middle class in such places as China, Latin America, Africa and the Middle East. With more disposable income, these people demand more and a greater variety of food. These middle classes will likely continue to increase, placing more pressure on world food prices.
The Lowly Dollar
The dollar has fallen against other world currencies over the past year. When the dollar goes down in value against other currencies, any dollar-denominated commodity tends to go up in price.
Part of the huge increase in oil prices can be attributed to the fall of the value of the dollar against other currencies. In the same way, most major food commodities are traded in dollars, which makes foreign-produced food more expensive.
Hidden Price Increases
Normally, food manufacturers would be hard-pressed to increase food prices further if they had already raised prices with their increased costs from oil. There is always fear among food manufacturers when they must raise prices that doing so will cause a decline in the amount they can sell. One way around this that manufacturers have been using is that instead of raising the price marked on the product, they simply place less into the package. Many people don't notice the change so they don't lose as much in sales.
Having done this, food manufacturers still have room to raise the actual prices where they would have been much more reluctant to do so if they had previously raised prices the same way.
Weather
Recent flooding in the Midwest and Corn Belt has prevented farmers from planting soybeans and damaged the corn crop, which had recently been planted. Analysts have estimated that there may be a shortfall of 15% or more in grain produced this year compared to last year due to the flooding.
The bad weather hasn't been limited to the U.S. Poor weather has reduced overall global food production from Canada, the European Union and Eastern Europe over the last couple of years. A drought has resulted in a major Australian wheat decline. This has tightened world food stocks, which has contributed to rising food prices.
Speculation
Speculation's role in increased food prices is hotly debated, but it appeNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
So often we are told by US politicians that NAFTA, and outsourcing jobs will help the Economy but where are the benefits!?!? The Euro is not really gaining, the Dollar is falling - measure the Dollar's purchasing power against Oil and Gold and the currency sucks, certain powerful people are trying to undermine the US Dollar. Housing can slump again and the President is spending a billion a week in iraq and for what? Building Islamic thugs Al-moqtada Alsadr new shiny homes in Iraq while the people in need in America are without jobs, with the end of the Dollar maybe a global currency will emerge as the Amero. Enjoy these days, America is the top dog now, but nothing lasts.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Dollar woes cramp economy, US consumers, but the government's options are limited
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/07/08/business/NA-FEA-US-Dollar-Do
ldrums.php
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
We're humped.
Washisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Hello,
There is no great cause for alarm. The U.S. dollar is not some kind of invented commodity with a made-up value. Rather, it either has intrinsic worth based on its mineral makeup, or is backed by precious ores such as gold and silver that have been...
What's that?
Oh.
Shit.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
The real killer is going to be gold. If the oil producing nations switch to the Euro as the currency oil is bought and sold in, the dollar is going to crash horrifically.
I almost don't want Obama to be elected because he's going to be blamed for the inevitable disaster that is coming which is entirely due to the last eight years of Republican rule.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Gold has no intrinsic value. It has some industrial uses, but the value of gold, gemstones, and some of the other hedges are based on sheer speculation. Value can fall just as quickly as it rose if speculators perceive a "better" investment elsewhere.
The oil-producing countries already are shifting to the Euro.
Iran turns from dollar to euro in oil salesQuote:
Iran is selling more of its oil for payment in euros than dollars as it seeks to shift its foreign currency reserves away from the depreciating currency of its political enemy, the United States. The world’s fourth-biggest oil exporter has inserted a clause in its oil contracts allowing it to request payment in alternative currencies.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article126395
4.ece
Some say that the Euro question was the real reason for invading Iraq: Iraq had already switched to the Euro on 2000 and was about to sign oil contracts with France and the USSR, the payment was also to be in Euros. Similarly, some say that the Euro option is the real reason for wanting to invade Iran.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
We need a shock to wake us up, there were warning signs about the Great Economic Depression but we did nothing until it was too late, warning signs about Japan and Germany before 1941 but we only acted when our Habor was destroyed. Most people refer to the Stock Market crash of 1929 as the beginning of the Great Depression, but it actually started before the Stock Market Crash for most Americans. Oil has been America's Achilles heel for sometime and everytime we fuel up billions of dollars go overseas to Arab nations who are starting to really dislike us. Each American citizen's share of the national debt works out, according to the National Debt clock works to $29,150.10. This recent debasement of the dollar should have sounded a national alarm bell to the ears of traditional America but again we sit in a slumber, stuck on a diet of pop-tv and junk food and media sound bytes. Presidents should have been leading responsible pay-as-you-go financing. Another sudden dollar decline would at least threaten to produce a wage-price spiral - and the mere threat would mean that the Fed reserve would likely be forced to raise rates. Many news websites reported last month that the Chinese, Japanese etc are considering abandoning the U.S. dollar as their national reserve currency but CNN, Fox etc refused to pick up this story. I think we will have realised we are in meltdown point when the finance people take some additional action to stop the dollar drop, but it won't be enough, and the currency markets won't do what the ministers want.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
What is happening to Americans is a microcosm of world finances.
Production, investments, and services are created by demand. For decades, the USA was the "world consumer", creating the German, Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese, Saudi, UAE, and Chinese economies. Without us, they wouldn't have had anyone to sell to. Since we were the also world's leading industrial economy, our currency meant something: it was bakced by the full faith and credit of our economy and our technological prowess.
That ended a few decades ago and we've been coasting on credit ever since.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Weird, just the other day I said pretty much the same thing to a friend of mine. Glad I'm not the only one who's had this thought.
Originally posted by SimonWho:
I almost don't want Obama to be elected because he's going to be blamed for the inevitable disaster that is coming which is entirely due to the last eight years of Republican rule.
------------------------------
This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:Quote:Weird, just the other day I said pretty much exactly the same thing to a friend of mine. Glad I'm not the only one who's had this thought.
Originally posted by SimonWho:
I almost don't want Obama to be elected because he's going to be blamed for the inevitable disaster that is coming which is entirely due to the last eight years of Republican rule.
------------------------------
This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.
It ain't just y'all. I been thinkin' it for quite some time now. No matter who gets elected, they're going to inherit about 37 kinds of shit, and they're going to get all the blame for it.
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:So you ADMIT that the last eight years were Clinton's fault!!!!!!
Originally posted by Kwicko:
No matter who gets elected, they're going to inherit about 37 kinds of shit, and they're going to get all the blame for it.
just thought I'd say it before AU did...
Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
This is BEARnanke territory
The Bank of England listening to people like Greenspan, is keeping its rates at 5 percent and might increase it. While our new guy Bernanke is slashing like crazy and running the dollar printing press as fast as he can.
In Japan, the Nikkei had its worst losing steak in 45 years
Quote:
(AP) — Leaders from the Group of Eight industrialized powers expressed "strong concern" about rising oil and food prices but said they remain "positive" about the outlook for the global economy in a communique released Tuesday.
Saying that surging oil prices pose a risk to the world economy, the G-8 leaders urged that production and refining capacities be increased in the short term and that investment be boosted over the medium-term.
The G-8 — which groups the US, Britain, Japan, France, Germany, Canada, Russia and Italy — also called for diversifying sources of energy and further efforts to improve energy efficiency.
To enhance energy security, the leaders proposed an energy forum focused on energy efficiency and new technology to help dialogue between producers and consumers. No further details were available.
"We remain positive about the long-term resilience of our economies and future global growth," the leaders said in the statement released on the second day of the G-8’s three-day summit in northern Japan, noting that growth in emerging economies remained strong.
"However, the world economy is now facing uncertainty and downside risks persist," the statement said.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Gas prices stay in record territory remaining at $4.10 a gallon
The Dollar dropped again
Oil is up with tension rising in Turkey and Iran
Gold may hit $1000/ounce
Commodity like Gold have become more popular as an investment to stop your savings from dropping in value
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
meh....
It's funny. I was the number one guy telling people the sky was falling and now that the shit is coming down, I'm the least worried about it.
We'll make it through, no matter what happens. This isn't the first time.
I really don't like the FED controlling this all though. Those guys aren't stupid. We're where we are at because that's where they wanted us to be today. Greenspan knew exactly what he was doing when he all but ruined the American dollar. Bernake isn't doing much to win my approval either. I made 20 bucks interest last month on a 15,000 investment. It's sick that they lowered the rates so much again.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I think Signy, Rue and I were right there with ya, Six.
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I was the number one guy telling people the sky was falling
But I guess we're all wrong- AU says there is no recession. We can all take our toys home now....
Rich Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Yeah... you're probaly right Chriss. Although I agreed with you much more often than the others you mentioned, we did all mention that.
Whatcha going to do though? When prices get high enough people wont' be able to pay and they're going to have to lower prices. The system is in for a correction. Meanwhile, hopefully you're on the list of those least effected.
My savings is tanking from inflation and low interest rates. I made some investments in the market at what I thought were bottoms, but they keep getting lower. I like my picks though and I will ride them out. No sense in getting all worked up about things that are WAY out of my control. I used to do that and most of ya'all thought I was a nut.
Like I said, I don't make much. I live insanely within my means. Sure, the damage to my savings is pissing me off, but I'll live. I think you'll find that many of us can make it just fine today without any assistance or worry if we learn to live within our means again.
Good luck to you and yours... "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:No they won't. If they can sell to China or the EU for more, they will. Why else do you think that people starve to death in food-exporting countries?
Whatcha going to do though? When prices get high enough people wont' be able to pay and they're going to have to lower prices
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Stop Bernanke From Swiping Your Savings
http://www.fool.com/investing/small-cap/2008/07/01/stop-bernanke-from-
swiping-your-savings.aspx
Quote:
No, he's not clad in black PJ's and sneaking into bank vaults. If only. Ben Bernanke is engaged in a process that's far more insidious and far more damaging to your financial well-being. He's helping to erode the buying power of your hard-earned, long-saved dollars with easy-money policies.
Hungry yet?
The evidence is everywhere, even in the "core" CPI, which pretends that food and energy prices don't matter. Yet those of us who do eat shelled out 5% more in May than we did last year. Get a load of what inflation has done to the following staples:
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2008/07/09/getting-burned-by-ber
nanke.aspx
Quote:
The Fed's monetary policies, though, have led us to our current situation. Commodities have spiked not because of shadowy speculators, but rather because the Fed has allowed the dollar to grow weak and stay weak. Bernanke said he would support a strong, stable dollar, but then allowed interest rates to hold steady. Oil, which initially fell on the news, surged again. Equities, which have been sagging all along as the economy itself stagnates, have continued to fall, despite all of the Fed's stimulus plans.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,
There is no great cause for alarm. The U.S. dollar is not some kind of invented commodity with a made-up value. Rather, it either has intrinsic worth based on its mineral makeup, or is backed by precious ores such as gold and silver that have been...
What's that?
Oh.
Shit.
--Anthony
r
I should have bought gold when all this stuff began, I would have made a small fortune
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
IndyMac bank seized by US amid intensifying crisis
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hHT0GmHDBOa4LFutdswkfe-SSvOg
Quote:
LOS ANGELES (AFP) — Federally-seized IndyMac Bank was due to reopen Monday after suffering one of the biggest bank closures in US history, as the troubled US mortgage industry struggles to stem further meltdown.
The regulatory Office of Thrift Supervision (OTS) announced Friday it had placed the California-based bank, worth an estimated 32 billion dollars, under the control of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC).
The mortgage lender, which will reopen as IndyMac Federal Bank, marked the largest bank failure in a year of mortgage and foreclosure crisis highlighted by a surge in defaults and a plunge in housing prices which are rippling through the US economy...
...
Reports said IndyMac's collapse was the second biggest in US history behind the 1984 failure of the 40-billion-dollar Continental Illinois Bank.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
You know Signy... it's the bullshit fear monguering like that, that drove people to pull all of their money out of IndyMac bank and made it fail.
At this point, I'm just wondering if you ever have anything positive to say about anything in your life ever?
For a pessimist, I guess I'm pretty optimistic. You should give it a try once. Your bleeding heart bullshit is getting pretty boring and that's why I don't come around here much anymore. You're obviously not hurting much yourself if you've still got an internet connection.
It's nice outside. Get some sun and stop worrying about everything. You're not going to fix a damn thing by whining. When/if the house of cards fall, you're going to really have plenty of things to bitch about that destroy your way of living and you're going to wish you had enjoyed the good times a little more than you allowed yourself to. "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
You're not going to fix a damn thing by whining.
Define "irony". Whining on the internet about someone else whining. On the internet.
At least now we know that Signy singlehandedly caused IndyMac to fail. All bow to the almighty Signy!!
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Gold has no intrinsic value. It has some industrial uses, but the value of gold, gemstones, and some of the other hedges are based on sheer speculation...
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
Surely you jest...
I'm often surprised by foolk who say this...
Gold has unique metallurgical , industrial , and medical uses for which it has no peer or acceptable substitute...
Consequently , 'intrinsic' value...If you don't agree , I'll send you a postpaid , return-addressed envelope in which you can place your 'scrap' , non-intrinsically-valued gold , and send it to me...I'll 'dispose' of it safely and properly ,
at " no expense " to you...
It's easy to look this stuff up , and it only takes a couple of minutes...
In case you want to examine some facts ,
here's a link to a Malcolm Forbes media company website , the Investopedia ,
and the definition of Lawful Money :
< http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/lawfulmoney.asp>
There's the facts...Federal Reserve Notes are Not Lawful Money...
Doesn't matter how many greenbacks one has , they're still not lawful money by definition ; they're just a means of creating and perpetuating debt , because , unlike Real Lawful Money , these bank 'notes' have no intrinsic value , apart from the little rectangular piece of cotton rag they're printed upon...
If you'd like to find out where to get the definition for what constitutes Lawful Money , there's the Constitution , and the Coinage Act (1792).
< http://landru.i-link-2.net/monques/coinageact.html> Coinage Act
"SEC. 9. And be it further enacted, That there shall be from time to time struck and coined at the said mint, coins of gold, silver, and copper, of the following denomination, values and descriptions, viz. Eagles—each to be of the value of ten dollars or units, and to contain two hundred and forty-seven grains and four eighths of a grain of pure, or two hundred and seventy grains of standard gold. Half Eagles—each to be of the value of five dollars, and to contain one hundred and twenty-three grains and six eighths of a grain of pure, or one hundred and thirty-five grains of standard gold. Quarter Eagles—each to be of the value of two dollars and a half dollar, and to contain sixty-one grains and seven eighths of a grain of pure, or sixty-seven grains and four eighths of a grain of standard gold. Dollars or Units—each to be of the value of a Spanish milled dollar as the same is now current, and to contain three hundred and seventy-one grains and
four sixteenths parts of a grain of pure, or four hundred and sixteen grains of standard silver. Half Dollars—each to be of half the value of the dollar or unit, and to contain one hundred and eighty-five grains and ten sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or two hundred and eight grains of standard silver. Quarter Dollars—each to be of one fourth the value of the dollar or unit, and to contain ninety-two grains and thirteen sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or one hundred and four grains of standard silver. Dismes—each to be of the value of one tenth of a dollar or unit, and to contain thirty-seven grains and two sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or forty-one grains and three fifths parts of a grain of standard silver. Half Dismes—each to be of the value of one twentieth of a dollar, and to contain eighteen grains and nine sixteenths parts of a grain of pure, or twenty grains and four fifths parts of a grain of standard silver. Cents—each
to be of the value of one hundredth part of a dollar, and to contain eleven penny-weights of copper. Half Cents—each to be of the value of half a cent, and to contain five penny-weights and a half a penny-weight of copper.
Half Eagles.
Quarter Eagles.
Dollars or Units.
Half Dollars.
Quarter Dollars.
Dismes.
Half Dismes.
Cents.
Half Cents.
31 USC 5101
Of what devices. SEC. 10. And be it further enacted, That, upon the said coins respectively, there shall be the following devices and legends, namely: Upon one side of eac
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:6ix, I'm trying to tell you that a system based on greed will act... yanno, GREEDY. It's not fear-mongering that's causing banks to fail, it's predatory lending caused by unbridled greed. But somehow you manage to get it bass-ackwards.
You know Signy... it's the bullshit fear monguering like that, that drove people to pull all of their money out of IndyMac bank and made it fail.
I just got a copy of a local paper from my hometown. The headline said "American Axle Spares Cheektowaga.. But Tonawanda Plant to Close" A union member who voted for the contract put it this way: It was either vote no and lose my job... or vote yes, get a buyout, and lose my job
You think you can make that go away with happy-think?
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
O2B- Because gold doesn't corrode, conducts metal and is easily smelted it is useful for SOME things, such as electronic contacts. (OTOH, nothing disinfects like silver.) But the current value of gold has nothing to do with it's utility and more do do with speculative value. To reiterate Rue's point: to a man dying of thirst, water is more precious than gold.
I'm not denying gold's historic value. But there may come a time when something else becomes more valuable than gold, simply due to changing circumstances. Food, for instance.
Don't assume that because things have been a certain way they will continue in the same vein indefinitely.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:My view exactly.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Don't assume that because things have been a certain way they will continue in the same vein indefinitely.
"Change is the essential process of all existence."
Spockisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
O2B- Because gold doesn't corrode, conducts metal and is easily smelted it is useful for SOME things, such as electronic contacts. (OTOH, nothing disinfects like silver.) But the current value of gold has nothing to do with it's utility and more do do with speculative value. To reiterate Rue's point: to a man dying of thirst, water is more precious than gold.
But , if he had a dollar's worth of gold , or a dollar's worth of silver , or something besides a piece of cotton rag on hand , he'd possibly be able to get his drink of water...If he had something of intrinsic worth to trade for something of intrinsic worth , the water , then he wouldn't be 'dying' , perhaps ? Your guy was dying because he only had a Federal Reserve bank 'note' to trade...When those become 'worthless' , they'll have something else to offer , and an 'inducement' for people to trade in those notes for the next fashionable phony 'money'...Also controlled by Central Bankers ! The United States has no Sovereignty without its own sovereign , Lawful Money , a UNIT of which is a specified Amount of a clearly-defined Metal !
Still , you and Rue have one thing in common in that little allegory...Logic failure ! It's a fallacious argument , and your 'dying man' is made of straw...
The current value of gold has EVERYTHING to do with its Utility ; because of its unique and intrinsic properties , it is ALWAYS in demand !
It's also in demand because wealthy people who know the difference between a 'fiat' currency and TRUE SUBSTANCE need it to preserve their 'wealth'...Take a look at the selloff of private jets , yachts , and 'jumbo' real estate holdings...They're being traded in so their owners can diversify their wealth with metals...The price of Metals is going up , while the 'value' of the US DOLLAR (Federal Reserve Note variety) is headed South...That's really not 'speculation' , it's AWARENESS...
You do know there's an inherent difference between price and value , don't you ?
You're thinking of the 'price' of gold in relation to Federal Reserve Notes , when you say 'current value'.
A Federal Reserve Note is NOT a Dollar...It's a piece of scrip , on a cotton rag...THAT'S why it can't say , 'This NOTE is LAWFUL MONEY' , because it ISN'T...It says This NOTE is 'Legal Tender'...That's Banker/Lawyer language for ,
" You've been Screwed , Dude !".
To claim it as Lawful Money would be FRAUD , and some folk would be consequently locked into their own Vaults...
If it's not 'Lawful' Money , what is it?...UNLAWFUL...Some folk seem able to 'Do The Math' on this point , but , a LOT of others , not so much...
A 'DOLLAR' is a Legally-defined Unit of Measurement...Go back and read the Coinage Act , it's the Law...If in further doubt , go check the Constitution...
Quote:
I'm not denying gold's historic value. But there may come a time when something else becomes more valuable than gold, simply due to changing circumstances. Food, for instance.
Yes , you are denying its historic value , and the Constitutional requirements that Visionary men demanded , at the Founding of the United States...To keep Us from being subjected to the whims and vagaries of 'central' banks , and the Tyrants who controlled them , they insisted that a 'dollar' be something with an 'inflation-proof' intrinsic value , not a worthless piece of scrip...THEY didn't deny the historic value of gold and silver , or copper...Throughout history , they've been commodities with true staying power , known and proven , and esteemed by virtually every culture...
Quote:
Don't assume that because things have been a certain way they will continue in the same vein indefinitely.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
I'M not making the assumptions here...I KNOW that things will NOT continue the same...And , it WILL NOT be Pretty...It's not a matter of IF it will crash , but WHEN...I Agree , Food will likely become a commodity more esteemed than gold , and ce
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
O2B- In a desert where EVERYONE is thirsty, water may become the currency of choice. Have you ever read Dune? And nice hard corundum blades, suitable for digging wells, might be more valuable per ounce than gold. Even paper money might have a higher value... as kindling, if nothing else. Sure, gold is pretty and shiny. It doesn't corrode. But it's heavy and it's too soft to turn into a tool.
Yes, gold has had a historic value. But the only "intrinsic" value that you can point to is the fact that rich people seem to value it. So you're basing your valuation on the belief and opinion of others. And values based on "opinion" or "belief" is still speculation. Put it this way: If gold were so intrinsically valuable, why would it's price (in USD) fluctuate from $850 in 1980 to $253 in 1999?
BTW- I have nothing against gold. I bought a sizeable amount over a year ago because I could see the dollar was going to tank. I also bought into selected foreign currency hedge funds. But if I think that something else will increase in value faster than gold... or foreign currencies... I'll dump the gold and buy into that. Even if it's tulip bulbs. (You should read about the tulip bulb mania of the 1600's.) It's all fluid.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
So , do we agree that we're in an economic wasteland ?
Just so you know , the tulip bulbs have long been old news to me...
" There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil , for every one striking at the root..."
Folk just need to know that there can never be a stable economy , or a Sovereign nation , built upon a house of cards made of Federal Reserve Notes...
Our economy is being debased according to an old design...Those who choose to ignore the facts of history will reap in the same way that they've sown...
You've conceded that gold DOES have an intrinsic value , and pointed out some of its particular uses...
But , you keep forgetting what you've already noted , and you are doomed to keep repeating what has gone before...
Gold has unique physical and chemical properties , just like germanium , tungsten , tantalum , platinum , etc .
Each of them have unique applications that give them their intrinsic value , and some are esteemed particularly because of their relative rarity...
In turns , you've both acknowledged , then subsequently DENIED , these facts...
Neither cotton rag nor Federal Reserve Notes are Lawful Money , and digital 'bits' aren't , either...
The forecast calls for pain...
Either you're a part of the problem , or a part of its solution...
If you don't believe in the intrinsic value of gold , what are you doing with it ?
Do you even have custody of it ? If you don't , you have no right to act surprised when it disappears like your digital bits...
If you still want to flagellate your appendages , and your expired equine ,
about how your gold has no 'intrinsic' value , I'll send a truck , or an envelope , to take it off your hands , whichever is more appropriate...
'Cause , you are my kind of stupid...
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Speculating.
If you don't believe in the intrinsic value of gold , what are you doing with it ?
Quote:Yep.
Do you even have custody of it ?
Quote:If that ain't the dumbest argument I've ever heard. Just because it's current value far exceeds its "intrinsic" value doesn't mean that it's valueless at the moment. Tell you what... if fiat money is so valueless, how about you give me all of yours? And, do you suppose you can discuss w/o being insulting?
If you still want to flagellate your appendages , and your expired equine , about how your gold has no 'intrinsic' value , I'll send a truck , or an envelope , to take it off your hands , whichever is more appropriate...
I'll get to the "root" of the problem later.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:6ix, I'm trying to tell you that a system based on greed will act... yanno, GREEDY. It's not fear-mongering that's causing banks to fail, it's predatory lending caused by unbridled greed. But somehow you manage to get it bass-ackwards.
You know Signy... it's the bullshit fear monguering like that, that drove people to pull all of their money out of IndyMac bank and made it fail.
I just got a copy of a local paper from my hometown. The headline said "American Axle Spares Cheektowaga.. But Tonawanda Plant to Close" A union member who voted for the contract put it this way: It was either vote no and lose my job... or vote yes, get a buyout, and lose my job
You think you can make that go away with happy-think?
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
Signy, stop being so greedy with your money! You just don't get it, do you? You're supposed to be giving it all to the banks, so they don't fail. It's not your place to wonder what they're doing with it, and it's not your place to try to say how it's spent. It's greedy to want to have any say over your own money! The banks know best, and they know what they're doing. If they didn't know exactly what they were doing, and how to do it better than us mere mortals, they'd fail.
Oh. Shit. Never mind.
But I still think it's greedy of you to want to have any access to your own money, when the banks clearly need it so much more than you do. After all, YOU aren't billions and trillions in debt, are you? Well, they and the government ARE, so that proves that you're greedy and they're not - if they were, they couldn't have just given away so much money!
Takin' Care of Business, Baby!
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I bought gold for long-term potential value as an industrial metal whose cheap sources are probably tapped-out.
But you know - people are looking for other metals to use as catalysts and in circuits, and gold could be replaced. And if gold is valuable enough, a new extraction process might make it cheaper to produce, or new sources may be found. Or the global economy might tank and the industrial demand for gold might drop for purely economic reasons. Demand for jewelry (80% of gold demand in 2003) could drop. Other things I haven't even thought about might happen. In other words, gold may NOT be the short-supply high-use-demand resource I think it will be.
In the meantime, now that speculation has temporarily topped-out the value of gold (another source of 'value'), it certainly would be worth my while to cash out my gold and try to find something else that will appreciate faster. And get back to gold later.
No, gold has no value beyond what we temporarily give it. In that way it's exactly like the other shiny bits of metal we trade with, as well as colored pieces of paper. Or shells, or ivory or any other item we assign value to.
I too have taken physical possession btw. Personally, I think it looks pretty.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
O2B- In a desert where EVERYONE is thirsty, water may become the currency of choice. Have you ever read Dune?
Sure , I've read Dune...
Despite the fact that you're plainly 'high on spice' , that stuff still hasn't given you any insight or prescience...Or , appreciation for history...
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Sure, gold is pretty and shiny. It doesn't corrode. But it's heavy and it's too soft to turn into a tool.
It's only your arguments that are too soft to turn into a tool...You , on the other hand , are a 'tool' , because you're a soft 'target' for the twin engines of our national destruction , the IRS and the Federal Reserve...
Consider yourself poked and forked , because you are 'done'...
Plainly , you don't know what constitutes a 'tool'...There are innumerable applications for gold in nanotechnology and nanomedicine , aerospace , electronics , etc.
That's intrinsic value , based on chemistry and physics , which are holding up pretty well , along with certain other immutable Laws of the Universe...
Demand impacts the available supply , and consequently , the 'price'...Never said that it wasn't a commodity , but it is the Lawfully-specified commodity upon which our economy is required to be based , along with Silver and Copper...All 'strategic' metals , because of their unique, intrinsic , properties...
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Put it this way: If gold were so intrinsically valuable, why would it's price (in USD) fluctuate from $850 in 1980 to $253 in 1999?
Market forces...Supply and Demand...Perception of an 'expanding' economy and relatively more responsible policies on the part of 'government' during that timeframe...Duh !
But , still no Lawful Money during that period...
Prior to that , John Kennedy wanted to return this country to its Lawful , Constitutional roots , a metals-based economic system...Soon thereafter , he was assasinated , and LBJ got busy reversing the orders...
A Sovereign nation truly cannot be run at the whim of private banksters...As long as there are Constitutional standards (Metals) being met...
Do you want to be a Citizen , or a 'subject' ?...
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
"Do you want to be a Citizen , or a 'subject' ?..."
And uhhhh, are we supposed to rally around this, at this point ? Have you given up on facts ? Is this your final argument ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Do you want to be a Citizen , or a 'subject' ?..."
And uhhhh, are we supposed to rally around this, at this point ? Have you given up on facts ? Is this your final argument ?
No , it's your 'final' choice...
You'll just have to live with the results , should you not choose wisely and well...
You and yours can be poked and forked , too , according to your own desires...
Can't you read , or do you just not get it ?
To reiterate :
That's intrinsic value , based on chemistry and physics , which are holding up pretty well , along with certain other immutable Laws of the Universe...
Tulip Bulbs don't have quite so many unique properties , OR Industrial Applications...
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
They why don't you reply to my (fact-filled) post which contains a whole lot more than slogans and personal attacks ? I think I do a pretty god job explaining where the 'value' of gold comes from. And no, it isn't intrinsic. Certainly not more intrinsic than silver (whose price tanked as demand for film went down) or less intrinsic than copper (whose price went up as technology and building expanded).
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Yes, gold has had a historic value. But the only "intrinsic" value that you can point to is the fact that rich people seem to value it. So you're basing your valuation on the belief and opinion of others. And values based on "opinion" or "belief" is still speculation. Put it this way: If gold were so intrinsically valuable, why would it's price (in USD) fluctuate from $850 in 1980 to $253 in 1999?
Now , you see there Lawrence , you can't even tell a damn lie...
This is disappointin' as hell...
I didn't point to rich folk owning gold as the ONLY
reason it has and holds value...
Quite the contrary...
There's the intrinsic value , based on chemistry and physics , which are holding up pretty well , along with certain other immutable Laws of the Universe...
What do they know that you seem not to apprehend ?
Clearly , they've done their research...And , apparently , you still haven't...
You can look it up , later...
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
O2B- Using gold to back currency does not ensure either stability or prosperity. In the 1890s when the USA was on the gold standard, it experienced a depression as severe (some say) as the Great Depression
Quote:http://projects.vassar.edu/1896/depression.html
In its impact on industry and employment, the depression of the 1890s was on a par with the Great Depression of the 1930s. In some places it began before 1890, in a deep agricultural crisis that hit Southern cotton-growing regions and the Great Plains in the late 1880s. The shock hit Wall Street and urban areas in 1893, as part of a massive worldwide economic crisis. A quarter of the nation's railroads went bankrupt; in some cities, unemployment among industrial workers exceeded 20 or even 25 percent
The economy was being strangled by the scarcity of money. The silver standard was proposed instead. But there were those whe feared the loss of the "intrinsic" value of gold. To which William Jennings Bryan replied
Quote:http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5354/
we shall answer their demands for a gold standard by saying to them, you shall not press down upon the brow of labor this crown of thorns. You shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold.
So when we were on the gold standard it was seen as the cause of the problem.
I'll get to the real cause later.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
They why don't you reply to my (fact-filled) post which contains a whole lot more than slogans and personal attacks ? I think I do a pretty god job explaining where the 'value' of gold comes from. And no, it isn't intrinsic. Certainly not more intrinsic than silver (whose price tanked as demand for film went down) or less intrinsic than copper (whose price went up as technology and building expanded).
Ignorance is your natural Right , if you so choose...
Look up your own facts...You need 'em more than a lot of Folk...
You cannot change the unique physical and chemical properties of Silver , or Gold , or any other Metallic Element...Immutable Law ! ...and , intrinsic Value...
If Silver is cheaply valued versus bank notes , that's the ideal time to buy !
Buy low...Sell high...Make BREAD...We're going to need Bread...
LOTS of Bread...
Siggy just made another point in my favor...There were massive , monopolistic , corporate forces , (Bankers , particularly , but by no means , exclusively) at work to debase the economy during that timeframe...
That's when Congress , at the heed of bankers , particularly , had made a first pass at imposing an Income Tax on this country...It took a bit of time , but before the decade was half over , the Supreme Court had ruled the income tax UN-CONSTITUTIONAL...
If the 1890's were so depressed , why were they known as the 'Gay 90's' ?
Wasn't because they were 'kwear' !
Actually , the period from 1890-1914 were known as 'the Good Years' !
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
If Silver is cheaply valued versus bank notes , that's the ideal time to buy !
O2B- you're conflating at least five things (maybe more, once I read your posts carefully): intrinsic value, taxes, control of currency, interest/ debt, prosperity. But for this particular point- if silver has an intrinsic value, it's exchange value shouldn't rise and fall either. PS please read my post about the cross of gold.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
O2B- you're conflating about four things. But if silver has an intrinsic value, it's exchange value shouldn't rise and fall either. PS please read my post about the cross of gold.
The exchange value does rise and fall according to supply and demand , to a degree , but the larger force at work is
'the money supply'---Controlled by Private , Central Banksters---The Federal Reserve , and the number of its Notes allowed into circulation...
Still , the intrinsic value of the True Substance , the Metal itself , does not change , because of its Elemental Physical & Chemical Properties...
Like , as an example , what's the Melting Point of Tungsten ?
Go look it up ! It's one of the things that gives that Element its Intrinsic Value , and makes it Unique in that particular , intrinsic , way...
'Nuff said...YMMV !
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
O2B- for someone who seems to be aware of monopolistic manipulations, your knowledge of their history is about as deep as a slogan.
THE GAY NINETEIS
Gay Nineties is an American term that refers to the decade of the 1890s.
The decade was a period of extremely exceptional economic expansion, and, in particular, of rapid wealth gains in New York City and Boston. The American empire of trade was at one of its zeniths, and cities were growing rapidly. While the same decade saw an explosion of immigration to the United States from less economically prosperous lands, and consequently no gaiety for the working classes it was a period of vast wealth for a newly emergent "society set". The railroads, the agricultural depression of the Southern United States, and the dominance of the United States in South American markets and the Caribbean meant that industrialists of New England were doing very well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_Nineties
You might also want to read The Great Gatsby and Anna Karenina to see how the wealthy class' experience can be totally divorced from everyday reality. Don't confuse one with the other.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
O2B- for someone who seems to be aware of monopolistic manipulations, your knowledge of their history is about as deep as a slogan.
THE GAY NINETEIS
Gay Nineties is an American term that refers to the decade of the 1890s.
The decade was a period of extremely exceptional economic expansion, and, in particular, of rapid wealth gains in New York City and Boston. The American empire of trade was at one of its zeniths, and cities were growing rapidly. While the same decade saw an explosion of immigration to the United States from less economically prosperous lands, and consequently no gaiety for the working classes it was a period of vast wealth for a newly emergent "society set". The railroads, the agricultural depression of the Southern United States, and the dominance of the United States in South American markets and the Caribbean meant that industrialists of New England were doing very well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_Nineties
You might also want to read The Great Gatsby and Anna Karenina to see how the wealthy class' experience can be totally divorced from everyday reality. Don't confuse one with the other.
---------------------------------
How is it that you can be so Adept at making my points , and yet , so Unaware of it...
Acquisition of Capital , and True Wealth , was continuing unabated...
The wealthy , AND , the extensive , Large , Middle Class were making great gains in both True Wealth and in Productivity...
If the lower , immigrant classes did not perceive gains to be made by being here , why were so many of them getting on the boat ?
Many of them seized the opportunities that were abundant here in this 'Land Of Opportunity' , and consequently , became much Wealthier themselves...There were innumerable 'Rags To Riches' stories...
Hope is an easy 'sell' when it's so Abundant...Hmmm , and all this happened when ?
When the United States still had Lawful Money , based upon the specified Metals...
You refer me to works of FICTION to bolster your arguments ?
Thanks for that !
Now , even most dung-headed idjits can see why you are 'poked and forked'...You roll over , show your teats , and beg for it...
What a whiner !
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I refer you to works of fiction because the concept of The Gay Nineties is also a work of fiction.
It seems to be that you're denying great swaths of economic facts in order to bolster your view of "scrip money" as being the root of all evil. e.g.
the fact that there was an economic panic in 1893
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1893
that high percentage of people were unemployed
http://projects.vassar.edu/1896/depression.html
That protests were occurring all over the country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cripple_Creek_miners'_strike_of_1894
http://www.nebraskahistory.org/publish/publicat/timeline/labor-day-par
ade-1894.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coxey's_Army
That places you in the ranks of the ignorant (at best) or the delusional (at worst) and certainly not worth my time.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
"Still , the intrinsic value of the True Substance , the Metal itself , does not change , because of its Elemental Physical & Chemical Properties...
Like , as an example , what's the Melting Point of Tungsten ?
Go look it up ! It's one of the things that gives that Element its Intrinsic Value , and makes it Unique in that particular , intrinsic , way..."
While in the chemical sense it's (almost) true that you can't change one element into another - why do you think that has anything to do with its value ? Do we value flint for making the very finest spear-tips ? Do we value bronze for armor ? Iron for airplanes ? As our technologies change, so do the things we value.
***************************************************************
The trick is to be ahead of change - not behind it. Now if you were saying the government should have bought up lots and lots of platinum back when it was called 'bastard silver' and used as ballast, you might have a point. But you are asking for the government to speculate in gold, specifically, a commodity whose value may have already come ... and gone.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Hello,
I think we can safely say that gold has a worldwide appeal and value that exceeds the worldwide appeal and value of paper.
I think we can also agree that while 'money' sometimes becomes valueless, there has been no time in the history of the civilized world when gold became valueless.
To paraphrase George Hearst from Deadwood, "That we agree that the color has value allows us to rise above our petty differences."
Or more to the point, Currency that contains Precious Metal is likely to retain some value even when there is no confidence in the issuing agency (i.e. the Government.)
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
If gold had been more valuable than food, the bangle would have been taken.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
But more specifically - would you have the government base its currency on silver ?
And why not ?
Gold is subject to just as many economic forces.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I think that we are entering a stage that - although is prolly has occurred at various points in our development- has been lost to history: the near-complete exhaustion of resources critical for our survival.
Hello, I think we can safely say that gold has a worldwide appeal and value that exceeds the worldwide appeal and value of paper. I think we can also agree that while 'money' sometimes becomes valueless, there has been no time in the history of the civilized world when gold became valueless
It happened on Easter Island. It also happened sporadically in response to natural disasters and shortages, ie. the 90% loss of crops and life in parts of China and South America due to a 535 AD volcanic explosion, etc. But, we're connected worldwide now. We're looking at shortages of water, oil, and food on a massive scale.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
O2B- Using gold to back currency does not ensure either stability or prosperity. In the 1890s when the USA was on the gold standard, it experienced a depression as severe (some say) as the Great DepressionQuote:http://projects.vassar.edu/1896/depression.html
In its impact on industry and employment, the depression of the 1890s was on a par with the Great Depression of the 1930s. In some places it began before 1890, in a deep agricultural crisis that hit Southern cotton-growing regions and the Great Plains in the late 1880s. The shock hit Wall Street and urban areas in 1893, as part of a massive worldwide economic crisis. A quarter of the nation's railroads went bankrupt; in some cities, unemployment among industrial workers exceeded 20 or even 25 percent
The economy was being strangled by the scarcity of money. The silver standard was proposed instead. But there were those whe feared the loss of the "intrinsic" value of gold. To which William Jennings Bryan repliedQuote:http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5354/
we shall answer their demands for a gold standard by saying to them, you shall not press down upon the brow of labor this crown of thorns. You shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold.
So when we were on the gold standard it was seen as the cause of the problem.
I'll get to the real cause later.
Oh , Puhleeeze DO !
Do you ever even bother to READ the sources that you cite ?
You keep proving my points , over and over again , and you don't even know that you're doing it !
It would be somewhat less shocking if you didn't do it time and again , but you persist , Ad Infinitum!
I have laughed so hard until I've gotten sleepy from exhaustion , and you bore me so badly that I must go take a nap !
You are very tiresome , and I think it's because you've clearly been 'educated' beyond your capacity for intelligence...
I'm truly sorry about that...Plainly you have bought into the banksters Propaganda...Ah , well , some people juggle geese...
There are some Folk in here exhibiting the evidence of Intelligent Life , ( and , I appreciate your help , AnthonyT and Miike , Jayneztown and Participant),
and I enjoy the pleasure of their company , but some of the rest wouldn't apprehend the facts if we took bricks of gold and could beat it into them...
It's even tougher than bringing Religiosity to the fuzzy-wuzzies...
Makes it More Fun !
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
"It's even tougher than bringing Religiosity to the fuzzy-wuzzies..."
So, are you a religious nut-job as well ? Oh, wait. That's redundant.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
S'wenways, AnthonyT
I'm curious. I can understand the feeling (though I don't agree with the concept) that a tangible item somehow has 'value' above and beyond what we give it. So, why do you seem to think gold is any more valuable than real estate, fresh water, arable crop-land or any resource ? And why do you seem to think that gold is not subject to market-forces of supply and demand (which only creates relative value) ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Hello,
re: Bangle/Buzzard Picture
I don't know what the Bangle is made of, but the Buzzard is made of food.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Hello,
Re: Silver
Yes, Silver also has globally accepted value that exceeds the globally accepted value of paper. Perfectly fine for coining money, and retaining some value even if the issuing agency loses its own.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Hello,
All items are subject to market forces of supply and demand. The argument I am presenting (perhaps not the argument of others) is that
A) Precious metal is portable, and thus suitable for use in pocket-carried currency
B) Precious metal's value may fluctuate, but is universally higher than the value of paper (except when completely removed from civilization, I grant.)
and so
C) Even if national market forces collapse, precious-metal currency retains a value for trade with outside agencies, where paper-based or non-precious metal currency does not.
D) Real Estate, Arable Land, and Fresh Water have no portability, and are not good candidates for currency. Further, title to such items relies on the stability of the issuing government.
The bottom line is this: When an economy is booming, paper money (depending on denomination) may be worth more than gold, but gold is not worthless. When an economy collapses, gold is still not worthless, but paper currency is.
Hence, gold (and other precious metals) have a better 'minimum value' base than paper currency, whose value is exclusively dependent in the confidence of the issuing agency.
I will admit this: In the presence of a worldwide economic collapse where all civilization dies, gold will have lost its 'universal' appeal.
In which case, strong adults and weapons will be the new currency used for obtaining and retaining wealth and property until civilization is re-established.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
"re: Bangle/Buzzard Picture
I don't know what the Bangle is made of, but the Buzzard is made of food."
And the gold became vulture stomach grist. Nice way to evade the point.
So mebee I'll have to be really, really explicit. If gold is so valuable why didn't starving people steal it ? Could it possibly be that gold is subject to market forces of supply and demand, and when demand drops gold loses its 'value' ? And if gold loses its value, how could that value be intrinsic ?
"Yes, Silver also has globally accepted value that 'exceeds' the globally accepted value of paper."
And how do you quantify that when your metric is the equivalence between paper (currency) and silver ? (As in silver is 'worth' so many dollars per ounce.) Your argument is circular - silver is 'worth' more than dollars because it's worth so many dollars per ounce. Or in reverse, currency is worth so much mass of silver.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Hello,
A better way to make my point:
If I take a pound of Paper, and print "One thousand Ron Paul Dollars" on it, and take that paper to England, France, or Russia, what will it be worth to them?
If I take a pound of Gold, and stamp "One thousand Ron Paul Dollars" on it, and take that paper to England, France, or Russia, what will it be worth to them?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I see we cross-posted.
I understand what you're saying. But I see it as a survivalist-style reaction to the Bush policies that have devalued the dollar (quite on purpose, as an assault on the middle-class). And what you imply is that an individual survivalist reaction is just the thing on which to base national policy.
It's the policies that are at fault, not the currency. And a 'gold standard' would not improve the policies one bit.
***************************************************************
And to try to catch up on our cross-posting - having traded in gold I can tell you it's not quite that easy. For one thing you'd have to show valid provenance for the gold, or have it re-assayed.
But even more than that - let's say the US goes on the gold standard. What does it trade to get that gold ? See the problem ? And once it has enough gold to 'back' whatever amount of currency is out there at whatever the chosen level will be - how does it cash in on the value of its gold without disturbing the market ? Your trade and my trade don't jiggle the market one bit, but the government's would drive the market to extremes (as a consequence of gold being a commodity.)
Even further, you can have ruinous economic policies, gold-standard or no. See SignyM's historic argument and 'cross of gold' reference.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:
If Silver is cheaply valued versus bank notes , that's the ideal time to buy !
O2B- you're conflating at least five things (maybe more, once I read your posts carefully): intrinsic value, taxes, control of currency, interest/ debt, prosperity. But for this particular point- if silver has an intrinsic value, it's exchange value shouldn't rise and fall either. PS please read my post about the cross of gold.
Really , I'm sorry to be so harsh about this , but if you care for the Future of Your Country , or Your Family , or Yourself , you really need to learn why these economic facts and fundamentals are so important...
If I seem to 'conflate' (synthesize the Big Picture , well , I'm known for that...) , at least I'm not confused...
I mean to confound these bungers !
More on this, soon...
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"re: Bangle/Buzzard Picture
I don't know what the Bangle is made of, but the Buzzard is made of food."
And the gold became vulture stomach grist. Nice way to evade the point.
So mebee I'll have to be really, really explicit. If gold is so valuable why didn't starving people steal it ? Could it possibly be that gold is subject to market forces of supply and demand, and when demand drops gold loses its 'value' ? And if gold loses its value, how could that value be intrinsic ?
"Yes, Silver also has globally accepted value that 'exceeds' the globally accepted value of paper."
And how do you quantify that when your metric is the equivalence between paper (currency) and silver ? (As in silver is 'worth' so many dollars per ounce.) Your argument is circular - silver is 'worth' more than dollars because it's worth so many dollars per ounce. Or in reverse, currency is worth so much mass of silver.
You're making the 'circular arguments' , Rue...
The pictures of suffering aren't sustaining your argument at all...They're just a diversionary tactic...
AnthonyT didn't fall for your feint...
The reason why 'starving people' don't steal gold to buy food :
First , they don't have the energy to do it...They're starving !
Secondly , they're living in places where they've been disarmed , usually by force...
Thirdly , the countries where they're starving are usually 'debtor' nations where their leaders have exploited the land's wealth for personal gain , and the 'economies' of those nations don't have any solid commodity backing their 'currency' either...They have 'paper' money , made as fast as the presses can run , and it's still not being made quickly enough...Ironically , these nations are usually not lacking in natural resources...
Usually , they have large reserves of something...
Witness Zimbabwe as one recent example--'INFLATION' is running an unimaginable figure...I've heard it's about 300,000 percent .
Paper 'currency', again...Corrupt dictator , again...
Any of this beginning to sound familiar ?
It really should...
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I understand what you're saying. But I see it as a survivalist-style reaction to the Bush policies that have devalued the dollar (quite on purpose, as an assault on the middle-class). And what you imply is that an individual survivalist reaction is just the thing on which to base national policy.
It's the policies that are at fault, not the currency. And a 'gold standard' would not improve the policies one bit.
***************************************************************
And to try to catch up on our cross-posting - having traded in gold I can tell you it's not quite that easy. For one thing you'd have to show valid provenance for the gold, or have it re-assayed.
But even more than that - let's say the US goes on the gold standard. What does it trade to get that gold ? See the problem ? And once it has enough gold to 'back' whatever amount of currency is out there at whatever the chosen level will be - how does it cash in on the value of its gold without disturbing the market ? Your trade and my trade don't jiggle the market one bit, but the government's would drive the market to extremes (as a consequence of gold being a commodity.)
Even further, you can have ruinous economic policies, gold-standard or no. See SignyM's historic argument and 'cross of gold' reference.
The 'cross of gold' argument is bogus...WJB was a flowery orator who impressed a bunch of rubes...Not saying he wasn't a good talker , or that they weren't a fine bunch of Reubens , just saying that WJB was a politician , and since he was not keen about gold , he was probably strong in his holdings of silver...
Back then , EVERYBODY who had as much as a nickel had silver...And , it could trade its True Substance for another commodity of True Substance...
A Federal Reserve Note can't do that...It is not Lawful Money ; It is not so 'valuable' , in an intrinsic sense , as are Metals...A 'NOTE' is not something to pay a debt , it is an Instrument for Conveying , Increasing , and Accumulating DEBT...
Have you ever been able to cancel a Debt , that is , PAY someone , by giving them an 'I.O.U.' ?
Definitions--
MORT-gage or 'House Note'--An Instrument of Debt , designed for the profit of Banksters , with the intent of keeping the debtor on a program of paying compounding interest until he DIES...
From the French , by way of the Latin...
CAR Note--An Instrument of Debt , designed for the profit of Banksters , with the intent of keeping the debtor on a program of debt until the 'durable good' is WORN OUT...Reference : CONSUMER Debt , and 'Human Resources' or 'Human Capital' , etc.
FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE--An Instrument of DEBT , DEBT , DEBT , designed to exploit all the Human Capital , 'Labor' , 'Consumers' , Natural Resources , Real Estate , Capital , Securities , Treasure , etc. , of the Citizens of the United States of America , and turn it all into the Property of the (Un-Elected , but Elect) Banksters of the Federal Reserve...and , Their Cronies and Co-CONspirators...
Rue , you haven't lived under 'The Gold Standard' in your Lifetime...Neither have I...
100 years ago , 1908 , how much 'National Debt' did this country have ?
How much does it have Now ?
What happened to this Nation's treasure ?
Its Reserves of Gold , Silver , and Copper , that were in GENERAL CIRCULATION , for the most part ?
Did it all just EVAPORATE ?
Is it all in 'Fort Knox' ? Where is it ?
How does ANYBODY know where it is ?
Has ANYONE seen it lately ? Hullo , is anybody home ?
Where is the Wealth of this Nation ?
Here's some interesting reading , that won't make it to the Major Media outlets for a while...
Maybe not ever..." We crashing again ? "
Disclaimer : It's for general informational and educational purposes only , and should not necessarily be construed to represent the viewpoints of IndependentBrowncoat 'Out2theBlack'...
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=232547
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Hello,
Rue and others, I support entirely that it is possible to have ruinous economic policies that can devastate a region and a people no matter what the currency is.
I merely believe that having currency that also happens to be a valued trade item independent from its source nation ensures that a percentage of the money's value is protected.
A fifty dollar bill may someday prove to be valueless, but an ounce of silver with the words 'Fifty US Dollars' stamped on it will always be an ounce of silver. Perhaps that ounce of silver will be worth 20 dollars here or 40 dollars there, depending on the demand of silver in the market, but it won't ever be worth zero dollars in most places.
And it's true, a desire to put precious metals directly into our currency is a reaction to ruinous fiscal policy that has brought our nation to the brink of disaster.
Which makes it, in my opinion, no less a good idea.
What I find funny is that there are arguments here from people who all agree with one another.
One people are arguing from a premise of, "We need to fix the economy, not the currency!"
The other people are arguing from a premise of, "We need to fix the currency, because I don't trust the bastards to fix the economy."
And the logical end result is to work on choosing representatives who will fix the economy while also reserving a small quantity of precious metal to use for emergency commerce in case the worst happens.
In an economic collapse, you may only get 20 cents on the dollar for your gold on the black market, but that's a lot better than no cents on the dollar from a worthless paper scrip. It might be enough to get emergency supplies, bribe law enforcement, and book passage.
And then those few lucky Americans can enjoy the life of an immigrant worker someplace else.
I hope this sentiment is alarmist bullshit that never comes to pass. I hope we can fix what we broke.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Out2 - The reason no one seems to be listenin to what yer sayin, is that belief in it is dangerous as hell to the status quo and thus, both unsafe to hold and propogate, as well as requiring a near total restructuring of stuff folk have (mistakenly) believed all their lives.
Only folk who maybe WOULD listen to you, are folks who've not yet entered our debt-slave economy as worker drones, and those are mostly powerless politically.
Such a neat little trap, isn't it ?
-F
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Do you have an actual point buried in all of these insults?
Oh , Puhleeeze DO !
Do you ever even bother to READ the sources that you cite ?
You keep proving my points , over and over again , and you don't even know that you're doing it !
It would be somewhat less shocking if you didn't do it time and again , but you persist , Ad Infinitum!
I have laughed so hard until I've gotten sleepy from exhaustion , and you bore me so badly that I must go take a nap !
You are very tiresome , and I think it's because you've clearly been 'educated' beyond your capacity for intelligence...
I'm truly sorry about that...Plainly you have bought into the banksters Propaganda...Ah , well , some people juggle geese...
Apparently not.
You have no idea what I think do you?
Yes, a rich minority was in control of the economy.
No, it wasn't just bankers.
The REASON to debase the currency is because the runaway concentration of wealth into the hands of the wealthy (not just bankers) causes aggregate demand to fall. The Keynsian solution (actually discovered years before Keynes) was simply to create more currency.
It's not the currency that's the problem, it's the apparently inevitable tendency of power (money) to concentrate.
It happens whether the currency is cowrie shells, gold, or paper, or whether the powerful are kings, bankers, or priests. It happened just b4 the French Revolution. It happened in ancient Egypt.
Now, was there such a need to be such a jerk?
Quote:
The reason no one seems to be listenin to what yer sayin, is that belief in it is dangerous as hell to the status quo
The reason why nobody listens to O2B is because he's a insulting chimp. and that's an insult to chimps everywhere.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Anthony- The reason to back a currency with gold (or silver, or oil, or whatever) is because of it's relative scarcity and difficulty to reproduce. That makes it more difficult to debase a currency, altho not entirely impossible: I'm sure you've heard of "clipped coins"? And, if you look at our pennies, they're no longer pure copper, they're copper-jacketed zinc. Which brings up good reason not to use metal directly: when the value of the metal as a commodity exceeds the nominal value, then people will hoard that metal and smelt it down. So yes, coinage CAN "disappear".
Some people think that w/o the Fed Reserve and fiat money debt would disappear, the nation would be prosperous, and wars couln't be funded.
But let me remind you that the Federal Reserve system founded in 1913, not 1813. Before that, the Federal govenrment had managed to get itself into several wars, including the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and the Spanish American war. And with it came... debt. (And BTW war profiteering. But that's another story)
Quote:
The United States has had public debt since its inception. Debts incurred during the American Revolutionary War and under the Articles of Confederation led to the first yearly reported value of $75,463,476.52 on January 1, 1791. Over the following 45 years, the debt grew, briefly contracted to zero on January 8, 1835 under President Andrew Jackson but then quickly grew into the millions again. The first dramatic growth spurt of the debt occurred because of the Civil War. The debt was just $65 million in 1860, but passed $1 billion in 1863 and had reached $2.7 billion following the war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt
Quote:Not true. The gold standard was adopted by the USA in 1873 and re-adopted by the Bretton Woods agreement after WWII. It did not officially end until 1971 when Nixon refused to honor the French demand for gold.
Rue , you haven't lived under 'The Gold Standard' in your Lifetime...Neither have I...
1971!!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard
Despite that, the United States had already endured several major depressions (1807, 1893, 1929) and several minor ones (1837, 1873) and become deeply indebted in five major wars (Revolutionary. Civil, WWI, WWII, Vietnam) and two major depressions (1893, 1929).
So, what did the gold standard accomplish? Did it prevent public debt and thus keep the government out of mischief? Did it ensure prosperity? Did it create stability?
The gold standard, gold coinage, and the lack of banks has not prevented economic mayhem. All you need to do is look at the various monarchies that minted gold coins directly: the French, Spanish, and English kings, and look at their history rife with wars, debt, and revolution to realize that even government-issued gold currency doesn't create prosperity or stability.
I agree with you that the Federal Reserve System is rife with mischief and too open to corruption for political ends, but IMHO it is not the heart of the problem.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
There are MANY avenues towards power: religion, armies, trade, productivity, money, control of the media ... maybe even reason! Prolly more than that but I don't recognize them. But once a person builds up a little more power (a few more soldiers, a little more money, a dozen more acolytes) it tends to snowball as soldiers are used to conquer and create more soldiers, and money is used to create more money, and acolytes are used to covert more heathens. And ultimately power converges: the rich control the government, the government controls the soldiers, the controlled media pushes an ideology (or religion), and it all feeds on itself until resulting injustice is too great to bear and it is all brought down by revolution.
My view is that the problem is far more complex than "currency" and a great deal slippier than "the concentration of wealth". Focusing on "fiat money" is silly, and it isn't backed by the grand sweep of history.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Signy,
You misapprehend my purpose.
I do not look towards gold to create prosperity or stability. I rather look towards gold (or Silver, I'm not a filthy oreist) as a means to limit (not naive enough to use the word eliminate) the power of the issuing agency to make my money worthless.
I'm not moronic enough to think that a precious metal standard would eliminate war or war profiteering or stop governments from borrowing money. I'm flabberasted that anyone thinks such things.
Rather, I think a precious metal standard ensures that if confidence in the US turns to crap, the money in my pocket continues to be worth more than crap.
In other words, the money in my pocket is backed by more than someone's opinion of my government's value. It's backed my its own minerological content.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Okay, I understand your point. Part of my argument is with O2B, who seems to think fiat money is root cause everything bad.
AFA backing the dollar with gold (silver, oil, copper)... Alas... I think we're way past the point of it even being feasible. Once the world adopted "floating" currency by officially abandoning Bretton Woods, every currency became subject to speculation. The only way to manage your assets NOW is to realize that it's ALL open to speculation and be prepared to abandon what isn't working at a moment's notice. I realize that doesn't help the average Joe and Jane Doe who don't have enough free cash speculate. Most of us are trapped by the dollar economy anyway... we're paid in dollars, we (collectively) pay the world in dollars, and if our currency tanks then everything we import suddenly becomes that much more expensive. For better or for worse, we are at that capitalist ideal where we're all competing world-wide.
So IMHO collectively the best way to get the dollar back on track is to
Stop the insane waste of federal dollars into such money-pits as Iraq
Increase the minimum wage to get the average person back onto solid footing and out of debt. This will boost the economy in a sustainable way.
Tax higher incomes to redistribute money downwards, especially thru the mechanism of universal health care (health-related debt causes more than half of all personal bankruptcies)
Outlaw predatory lending.
I think we also need to re-develop the fear of debt and a somewhat anti-consumerist outlook. The Simplify movement, for example. Just because we want something badly doesn't make it a necessity.
My concept is to reduce the NEED for debt to at the Federal, State and personal levels. That will automatically reduce the power of banks. (BTW my current grotch is against insurance companies). That is all politically within the realm of possibility, I think.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Now, was there such a need to be such a jerk?
...The reason no one seems to be listenin to what yer sayin, is that belief in it is dangerous as hell to the status quo...
The reason why nobody listens to O2B is because he's a insulting chimp. and that's an insult to chimps everywhere.
---------------------------------
Have you started to get a grip on the notion that certain commodities , Metals , or Elements DO have an 'intrinsic' worth ?
That's really where the argument started...And , almost every bone that you've uncovered proves the original point somehow...But , you continue to Dig , Dig , Dig , like an attack dog on a search for bones , and you pay no heed to paleontologists , archaeologists , or Historians , much less Economists...(Yes , I know Keynes was an Economist , but he's also a diversion to you...You've gotten in deep , working at shellacking over facts , while you embrace theories and 'opinions'. You've sought to misstate the positions of folk like myself and AnthonyT , attempted to 'put words in our mouths' , but that's due to your limited apprehension , not due to any defect in facts that we've brought out in front of you . Your 'symbols' are broken...The 'fiat' money is broken . It's your LOVE for that fiat money that is bringing US down . A hundred years ago , even Average Joes had intrinsically-valuable Lawful Money in their hands...If you support the notion of Democracy that's a good thing...If you support the notion of a stable Republic , that same Lawful Money is a good thing...
But , if you support the Privatization of Wealth and the Socialization of DEBT , then , Lawful Money stands in the way of that...)
It's simply not within your purview...You're an attack dog , for the Establishment , on a temporary search for the latest bone that you can gnaw on...
I have to give you some credit , though...
At least you're single-minded...Probably not too focused , 'cause you're doing more sniffing than seeing , while your head is in that dark hole...
But , I do get the notion that you're conducting a search , and that's a good thing .
Hopefully , something that you uncover will give you the ability to sniff out a clue , and you'll be able to help yourself , or someone else , with what you find...
In my world , there is no lack of folk who can uncover facts...
But , there is a severe shortage of folk who are actually able to apprehend the truth that those facts reveal .
The first casualty of war is always the truth...
Thanks for calling me a chimp , Siggy...
You figure that's an insult , but , to me it's really a great compliment...
Since you're fond of citing fiction to bolster your opinions , I'll go along with you , humor you , for just a tick .
Just keep in mind , in the latest iteration of PLANET OF THE APES , there are only two types of critters flying the Space Ships...
The Chimps , and the real , human , beings...
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
There are MANY avenues towards power: religion, armies, trade, productivity, money, control of the media ... maybe even reason!...
And ultimately power converges: the rich control the government, the government controls the soldiers, the controlled media pushes an ideology (or religion), and it all feeds on itself until resulting injustice is too great to bear and it is all brought down by revolution.
My view is that the problem is far more complex than "currency" and a great deal slippier than "the concentration of wealth". Focusing on "fiat money" is silly, and it isn't backed by the grand sweep of history.
You're right...REASON is POWER...
We're battling to change your mind...
If your mind becomes Free , then the rest will follow...
You've been a (wage)slave on the Plantation a long while now...
We want you to get a taste of Freedom...
Liberty...
'The Grand Sweep Of History' was surveyed by the Founding Fathers...They STUDIED it , rather than taking a superficial glance at it...
And , they required , soon after , that COIN be based upon a system of Weights & Measures...
Of , certain Metals , of intrinsic Value...
Sure , even the most foolish criminals of low birth know about shaving or clipping coins...
But , any Merchant with a simple scale can tell whether a coin is 'up to spec' , in just a short time...
That's the nature of intrinsic value , of True Substance...A way that value can be exchanged , one thing of worth , for another thing of worth...
A lot of Folk can do the Math , on that...
But , others can't , or won't , or don't...
About 410 Million 'FRN' 'Dollars' are produced on printing presses every day in the US...
But , more than that amount ia being expended every day in Iraq...
That's not only 'inflationary' , but the interest alone that comes due on that deficit , could be enough to 'crash the system'...
If one keeps adding energy to a BAD SYSTEM , it can only inevitably become a BIG , BAD SYSTEM...
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Do you suppose you could tone down the righteousness? Your spittle is flying and it's splattering my screen.
Have you started to get a grip on the notion that certain commodities , Metals , or Elements DO have an 'intrinsic' worth ?
I guess first of all, I dispute your notion of "intrinsic worth". I'm not sure I know WHAT you mean by "intrinsic worth", since it seems to wobble between "supply/demand" and "inherent properties" To clarify, do you mean...?
Quote:
An intrinsic theory of value is any theory of value in economics which holds that the value of an object, good or service, is intrinsic or contained in the item itself. Most such theories look to the process of producing an item, and the costs involved in that process, as a measure of the item's intrinsic value.
For my viewpoint, ANY physical item has SOME sort of value. For a while, the medium of exchange was salt ("worth his salt") because it was extremely necessary, rare, and light. The exchange value of gold is based on the demand versus the supply. At the moment, it's exchange value IMHO far exceeds its value as an industrial metal. In fact, the major use of gold is jewelry.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
The reason why nobody listens to O2B is because he's a insulting chimp.
you continue to Dig , Dig , Dig , like an attack dog ...You're an attack dog
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I like my chances...
After all , I'm the 'chimp' with the gun...
Always better to be the chimp , than to be the chump...
Siggy just begs to be the chump...
No matter how many times anything gets shown to him , he just circles the hydrant and looks for something to lift his leg over...
The rest of the time , his head is down in the hole , and his tail end is in the air...
He doesn't even know , he's really getting boned at both ends...
Sad .
History shows him the bones in the hole in the ground , while the Establishment shows his arse a bone of a different sort...
Can't see how he'd find that so comforting...
He's got my Pity ; but no Sympathy from me...
He just needs to learn to be still...Watch things for a bit...Maybe learn a new trick or two...
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Just because we want something badly doesn't make it a necessity.
Blasphemer! How dare you say that my 42-inch HDTV isn't a necessity! I mean, seriously, have you WATCHED Firefly on Universal HD on a really large screen? It is quite necessary. :)
Siggy, I've heard you called many things over the years, but an attack dog for the establishment? That really takes the cake. This person doesn't know you at all, does he?
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Do you suppose you could tone down the righteousness? Your spittle is flying and it's splattering my screen.
I guess first of all, I dispute your notion of "intrinsic worth". I'm not sure I know WHAT you mean by "intrinsic worth", since it seems to wobble between "supply/demand" and "inherent properties" To clarify, do you mean...?Quote:
An intrinsic theory of value is any theory of value in economics which holds that the value of an object, good or service, is intrinsic or contained in the item itself. Most such theories look to the process of producing an item, and the costs involved in that process, as a measure of the item's intrinsic value.
OK , this is a good example...
First you tell me that you 'dispute' my facts about 'intrinsic' worth...
But then , you tell me that you don't know what I mean...
So , you're telling Us that you want to Argue about Something , but that you don't even know what it is that we're supposed to be arguing about ?
OK , so now we conclude that you've had a logic failure...
You may see something wobbling , but it's not me...
You said you didn't even want to waste your time with me...
So , Don't...
Don't bother digging up any 'theories' , names , dates , concepts , etc. , 'til you've decided to do business in a different way...
You can take everything I've said at 'face value'. That's not a currency you can find just anyplace...
A 'dollar' is not a piece of cotton rag...
Reference the Coinage Act (1792).
A Dollar is defined by specific weights and measures , or it is not Lawful Money...
You've already found every sort of information that you can possibly need , to draw correct conclusions...
You have cited all sorts of references to bolster your theories , and you still wobble...
The world is brim full of Folk like that...
And , they're what will take Us down , when they pull the plug , and get Us to circling the drain...
I've got better things to do these days...
There's a war on , for your mind...You can change your Life , if you can only change your mind...
" The hell with This , I wanna LIVE ! " -Kaylee
I can back up everything I've said , so far...
But , you just want to dig up new things to Argue about...Where does that start getting fun ?
Take just the ONE thing at a time...
If you want to get the Big Picture , you won't be able to assemble it by picking up your random pixels , and lobbing them at your screen...
We can begin at the beginning , but it has to be done with the end in mind...
You want to be Understood...Then first , seek to Understand...
Did you look up the melting point of Tungsten ?
There's a Fact in the answer , that tells something about 'Intrinsic Value'...
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I think the recent devaluation of the American dollar was a good thing, because it could make American made things more appealing in other countries, and it might wake up Americans to look for and buy American made things instead of imported junk. Here in Vermont there is a real grass roots move for people to buy locally made stuff and services. Vermont never was a large economic entity, so we won't be buying too many electronic games from local makers but an increase in local toys has been sparked.
http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Silly folk.
I can name something with a higher value in a crisis then fiat money OR precious metals OR even uncut gemstones.
Know what it is ?
Knowledge.
I can repair small engines, often with a minimum of tools and parts, even repair or rig damaged/broken parts, all with a minimum of tools that can be carried on my person.
As some folk learned during the blackout when their generators failed - supply and demand can be a total bitch, although I took pity on them and simply asked them to pass on the kindness, I *could* have been a real dick about it.
Knowledge is a power and a currency of it's own, which needs no physical manifestation to be carried around, and save for measures most extreme, cannot be stolen from you, only shared willingly.
And it is multiplied in value by giving it to others, rather than reduced.
Just something to ponder, while you're busy hacking each others eyes out over the material.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Out2 - The reason no one seems to be listenin to what yer sayin, is that belief in it is dangerous as hell to the status quo and thus, both unsafe to hold and propogate, as well as requiring a near total restructuring of stuff folk have (mistakenly) believed all their lives.
Only folk who maybe WOULD listen to you, are folks who've not yet entered our debt-slave economy as worker drones, and those are mostly powerless politically.
Such a neat little trap, isn't it ?
-F
KNOWLEDGE is good currency...
REASON is good currency...
WISDOM is even good currency , because it is the result of Knowledge and Reason...
But , the Wisdom is a currency mainly for personal use...
There's no use giving Knowledge to Folk who just want to argue about what it means , before they've even absorbed what they've already uncovered...
That's just a WASTE...
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:It seems to me that I HAVE drawn the correct conclusions. IMHO the actual currency in use is only a very small part of the question. Could be salt, could be gold, could be water, could be anything that is portable and fungible. I think what you're REALLY saying is that .... unlike gold, salt, or water... the problem that paper money (and electronic bits, and notes) are only as limited in quantity as the fiscal discipline as a bunch of bankers and politicians choose to make it, which is not at all. With a high-speed printing press and good-quality paper, or a computer, it's possible to "print" as much money or create as much debt as you want.
You've already found every sort of information that you can possibly need , to draw correct conclusions...
I get that part.
I just don't think it's the whole picture.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on where we put the emphasis.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
When all is said and done, I believe the ones who have called America home, and have the Trillions of dollars to do it are looking to the future for their families.....
It's all a big joke really....
What are we paying to foreign countries for their oil today?
That's right.... paper, that has long since been removed from gold as a standard and been burdened upon a promise among which the likes G W B and Obama make on a daily basis.
In the end, who's got the easy drilling and who's got the shale?
If I were a Rhode's Scholar, with or without a DUI ,I'd be doing the same thing.
Your great great granddaughters that aren't wearing burkahs will thank you.... "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
6ix - Ya lost me there.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
" He's lost in the woods...We All Are..."
Those who KNOW NOT , know not that they know not...
The Truth shall make one free...
Does it seem a coincidence , that the Federal Reserve was established in 1913 , as Siggy duly noted , and the Income Tax was , also ?
There's a lot that needs to be uncovered , in this regard :
A Talk by G. Edward Griffin
Author of The Creature from Jekyll Island
' We'll start way back in history to give some kind of historical perspective to this; we'll go back to the first century BC and the tiny kingdom of Phrygia. There was a philosopher by the name of Epictetus and it was Epictetus who said "Appearances are of four kinds: things either are as they appear to be; or they neither are nor appear to be; or they are but do not appear to be; or they are not and yet appear to be." When I read that statement for the first time, I had a big chuckle over it and I thought for sure that if Epictetus were alive today he would probably be a Harvard professor of money and banking; it sounds like so many explanations that I have read about various aspects of the Federal Reserve System. What he did was he took a fairly simple concept but by the time that he was through explaining it, we didn't have any idea what he was talking about. All Epictetus said was that appearances can sometimes be deceiving. That's all he said but by the time he was through explaining the four different ways in which they can be deceiving, we were left back at the switch somewhere.
Nevertheless, I thought, accidentally perhaps, Epictetus had given me a track to run on so-to-speak. Actually it could be the theme since if there's anything in the world that is deceiving it is the Federal Reserve System. In fact, it is one of those appearances of the fourth kind which are those appearances which are not and yet appear to be. I'm going to use that as sort of a hook on the topic. We'll come back to it from time-to-time and punctuate it if I can remember to do that because it tells us something at the most fundamental level about the Federal Reserve System and that is that appearances can be deceiving.
When I did my research on this topic I came to the startling conclusion that the Federal Reserve System does not need to be audited, it needs to be abolished. This is very intriguing to think we should audit the Fed but I discovered that probably if they audited the Fed it would get a clean bill because it's undoubtedly doing exactly what it's supposed to do according to the law. What it is supposed to do according to the law is justification for abolishing it so all we have to do is understand what the Federal Reserve System is supposed to do and we'll be pretty upset about it. The fact of the matter is that most people haven't the foggiest idea of what it is in fact supposed to do.
I came to the conclusion that the Federal Reserve needed to be abolished for seven reasons. I'd like to read them to you now just so that you get an idea of where I'm coming from, as they say. I put these into the most concise phrasing that I can to make them somewhat shocking and maybe you'll remember them:
The Federal Reserve is incapable of accomplishing its stated objectives.
It is a cartel operating against the public interest.
It's the supreme instrument of usury.
It generates our most unfair tax.
It encourages war.
It destabilizes the economy. '
' It's WORSE than you Know...
It usually is...'
LINK :
< http://www.bigeye.com/griffin.htm>
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
The thing that can MAKE it happen here , is all the Folk saying , " It can't happen here..."
Here's the current version of a Central 'RESERVE' 'Bank' running amok :
" Amid echoes of the action taken by Germany to halt the hyper-inflation of the 1920s, people in Zimbabwe will tomorrow start to use a new currency introduced by the central bank to halt the African country's runaway increase in the cost of living.
Gideon Gono, the central bank governor with the unenviable record of presiding over the world's highest inflation rate, said he was no longer prepared to continue printing notes of ever higher denominations. "Ten billion dollars today, will as from August 1 be revalued to one zimdollar dollar," Gideon Gono said earlier this week.
The move follows an increase in Zimbabwean inflation to 2.2m%, with a loaf of bread costing 200bn dollars in Harare this week, and represents the government's attempt to get to grips with the economic crisis in what was once one of sub-Saharan Africa's richest countries.
Notes of higher and higher denominations have been put into circulation since the start of the year and the new $100bn bank note came into circulation in Zimbabwe only 10 days ago.
Gono has now decided, however, that the only way to restore confidence in the currency is to follow the example of the president of the Reichsbank, Horace Greeley Hjalmar Schacht, who helped bring an end to Germany's financial crisis by striking nine zeros from the currency and turning 10bn old marks into one new Rentenmark. Germany's inflationary problem in 1923 was even worse than Zimbabwe's today, with workers being paid three times a day and families using worthless bank notes to burn furnaces because it was cheaper than buying firewood. "
There's more , here's the Link :
< http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/jul/31/economics.zimbabwe>
Ah well...We should look at the bright side , right ?
There are LOTS of Billionaires in Zimbabwe !
And , we ALL want to be Billionaires , Right ?
Found some more interesting reading , and what the hey , it doesn't cost anything to get :
http://www.scribd.com/doc/210030/Goldberg-The-Complete-Book-of-Greed-T
he-Strange-and-Amazing-History-of-Human-Excess-1994
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
There are LOTS of Billionaires in Zimbabwe !
And , we ALL want to be Billionaires , Right ?
All of which makes you think about it, when you hear how many billionaires have been created in the last decade or so in the United States. Sure, they're billionaires and all, but a billion ain't what it used to be! :)
"A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money!"
Unless, of course, it's Zimbabwean money...
Quoth Monty Python: "My brain hurts."
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME