Kaylee Video link

POSTED BY: ManiacNumberOne
UPDATED: Sunday, November 14, 2004 15:20
VIEWED: 21957
PAGE 1 of 1

MANIACNUMBERONE

Tuesday, April 15, 2003 7:31 PM

sorry kids, this has turned into a mistake.

SARAHETC

Tuesday, April 15, 2003 7:54 PM

Not to be icky but the Kaylee link ain't working.

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

MANIACNUMBERONE

Tuesday, April 15, 2003 9:09 PM

You were right. I was stupid, and uploaded the River video instead and tried to link to the Kaylee video, that wasn't there. He he he. I have set the page to give the River video. In a few days, or whenever I get someone screaming that they have waited too long for the Kaylee video, then I will post it.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

SARAHETC

Wednesday, April 16, 2003 12:10 AM

Okay! It's download right now but I notice it's to the Dar Williams song "It's a War in There." Yeehaw! I LOVE (love love love) Dar Williams.

Okay. Shutting up now.

Dar Rules! Firefly forever!

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

SARAHETC

Wednesday, April 16, 2003 12:23 AM

Got it. Watched it. Very cool.

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

LORA

Wednesday, April 16, 2003 2:23 AM

Did your Windows mediaplayer play it or did you get Realplayer to work? The mediaplayer keeps opening up automatically and then playing only the first few seconds of it. The Nathan interview on the same page didn't even launch the player. Realplayer normally works well for me, but is not cooperating tonight. Any common things I may have done to mess this up?

"Is there any way I'm gonna get out of this with honor and dignity?" Zoe, War Stories

HOTFORKAYLEE

Wednesday, April 16, 2003 2:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
I uploaded the River video instead and tried to link to the Kaylee video, that wasn't there. He he he. I have set the page to give the River video. In a few days, or whenever I get someone screaming that they have waited too long for the Kaylee video, then I will post it.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

That River video was, in my opinion, awesome. Good work.
Okay, I'm screaming, wheres my Kaylee video? (scream, scream)
(scream)

Quote:
"Notice the waves, each moving in its own order, predictable, unchanging. But drop in a single stone and see how the pattern changes. Everything around it is altered."

SUCCATASH

Wednesday, April 16, 2003 2:37 AM

Lora, not sure, but it might work better if you RIGHT-CLICK on the link and save it to your hard drive first, then open the file with Media Player.

SARAHETC

Wednesday, April 16, 2003 2:42 AM

That was my first thought too, Lora. Right click save as. Though, I didn't have any trouble. It downloaded and opened real player right up.

Version issues? Codec issues? Shouldn't need a codec though, should it?

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

KAYTHRYN

Wednesday, April 16, 2003 3:39 AM

Quote:
Posted by Hotforkaylee:
That River video was, in my opinion, awesome.

Ditto. Who ever made that one...MAKE MORE PLEASE! Loved it.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

JRC

Wednesday, April 16, 2003 4:36 AM

OK people. The web site is not responding as of 11:30 p.m. CT. Perhaps too many trying to log on?

SUCCATASH

Wednesday, April 16, 2003 4:56 AM

I just tried, it appears to be working fine for me...
10:50 pm MT - 20 minutes later

MANIACNUMBERONE

Wednesday, April 16, 2003 7:20 AM

Browncoats, I have uploaded the Kaylee video to the website I mentioned above. Sorry, but the River video previously posted there had to come down to make room. I only get 50 megs of space, so...
By the way, when I get enough of it finished, I will post the Serenity blueprint on this site too. I have lots of great Firefly video's. Glad to have some fellow Browncoats to share them with. I am putting up a short Tim Minnear video too. I will switch it out whenever. I am not sure if the video's which I have are the same ones on the Fux site. I have heard about them here on FFF, but I refuse to visit Fux on the grounds that I hate them. Regardless, I have them all anyway, and I'll be happy to accomodate any requests for what you would like to download.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

KIRTIL

Wednesday, April 16, 2003 8:50 AM

Hey everyone :)

So i was on vacation (actually i still am, just couldnt stay away any longer - and yes i have my firefly episodes with me hehe never leave house without them) and apparently i missed a river video

Is there a way to get my hands on that vdeo? River is my favorite lady at Firefly and i would hate to miss an oportunity to see her once more.

Please post if you can help. Thanks in advance..

MANIACNUMBERONE

Thursday, April 17, 2003 6:32 AM

Kirtil, I can give it to you if you have messenger. E-mail me and send me your handle and I will email you mine back. Be sure to include your email address. Or if you can wait a little bit, I will just put it back up on the site.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

JRC

Thursday, April 17, 2003 9:35 AM

Hope this is not a totally stupid question, but do the other links for the other movies work as well, or do we just wait for some future date to see these? Look very interesting!

Talk peace, but, carry a BIG stick.

MANIACNUMBERONE

Thursday, April 17, 2003 6:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JRC:
Hope this is not a totally stupid question, but do the other links for the other movies work as well, or do we just wait for some future date to see these? Look very interesting!

Talk peace, but, carry a BIG stick.

no, not a stupid question. I thought I'd throw that list up there and get some feedback. I can post whatever. Only the movies in the box in the middle of the page are ready for you to upload... of the other video's in the big list, what would you like to see posted first?

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

LJC

Thursday, April 17, 2003 6:07 PM

Um... does Nia know that you're hosting a copy of her River vid? And is there a reason why you don't include the fan vidder's info ont eh site

No offence, but unless these folks have given you permission to mirror their music vids, I'd suggest contacting them and asking, and in the meantime, taking them down... Content theft, even out of ignorance, is the quickest way to get folks hella mad at you...

If you've gotten permissionf rom all the fan vidders already, then of coruse just ignore this. But if you haven't, PLEASE take this to heart and contact them immediately.

--
Some take the high road. Some take the low road.
And some just go screaming down the highway, dropping flaming bits of wreckage.

MANIACNUMBERONE

Thursday, April 17, 2003 6:20 PM

I have never heard of Nia. Is that who made that River vid? Great work there!! I found these vid's (all of them) posted on other websites or gotten through people who told me they were free public domain files. That aspect is mentioned on the very bottom of the web page in question. As to info on the vid's, that is all I had, and I posted what I knew. If I knew who to contact (or how) to ask permission to mirror vid's, that would be priority one (make no mistake.) As it is though, I haven't got that info. Have you?

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

LJC

Thursday, April 17, 2003 6:31 PM

well, kelly's info is on the vid itself-- kellyss@kellystarsigns.com

And here's Nia's link which I got off TWoP:

http://www.trendeater.com/media/vids/

I would strongly suggest that you NOT post any vid you've downloaded unless you get the vidder's okay first--rather than waiting to see if they contact you. Just 'cause I've been on the recieving end of folks taking stuff from my site and loading it on theirs without asking me or even telling me, and it was a bad bad scene... Not to mention, music vids (liek fanfic) violate copyright, and so it is a MAJOR deal to most fan vidders, being able to control exactly how their vids are distributed. MAJOR deal.

--
Some take the high road. Some take the low road.
And some just go screaming down the highway, dropping flaming bits of wreckage.

MANIACNUMBERONE

Thursday, April 17, 2003 7:31 PM

Thanks LJC, I contacted both parties. I hope they are the true fans I believe them to be, and allow me to post their great stuff.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

LJC

Thursday, April 17, 2003 7:38 PM

Erm, while I don't think being a 'true fan' has a jot to do with allowing their stuff to be mirror'd, but I hope it all works out for all involved...

--
Some take the high road. Some take the low road.
And some just go screaming down the highway, dropping flaming bits of wreckage.

MANIACNUMBERONE

Thursday, April 17, 2003 8:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LJC:
Erm, while I don't think being a 'true fan' has a jot to do with allowing their stuff to be mirror'd, but I hope it all works out for all involved...B]

I would highly disagree with you. Why make those great video's if not to share them. They are offering them for free on their own sites, so why would they not allow them to be mirrored? There could be a few possible reasons. Note: I don't subscribe to any of these beliefs - they are just possibilities. Reason one is they are not true fans. I don't believe that though, or they probably wouldn't have made them, huh? Second possible reason is that they possibly have something going on the side (with which they make money), on their website, and those free video's bring in needed traffic. If that were the reason, I would fully understand. Third possible reason they might not want me to mirror those video's on another site, (and this one's the worst of all) they didn't actually make them, and don't want to get caught saying they did on multiple websites--cause I would surely reference them as the video's source. Fourth reason, they are greedy with the video's they made and with the access rights to them. They want to get credit instead of sharing the joy of Firefly fandom with others. If that were the reason, I would say they are not true fans.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

LJC

Thursday, April 17, 2003 8:30 PM

Quote:
Why make those great video's if not to share them. They are offering them for free on their own sites, so why would they not allow them to be mirrored?

Just ask folks FIRST before you mirror their work. It's common courtesy, and has nothing to do with being a "true" anything.

If you love the vidder's work so much, then provide a link to their sites--you just don't go around posting files that aren't yours to post, dong ma? It's not classy, it ain't right, and it sure as heck isn't neighbourly...

Sorry if this ticks you off, but that's just how I see it.

If someone had taken all the fan fiction I'd written and, without my name on it, without my knowledge, or without my consent, posted it on their own website, I'd be raising hell about it. And I don't think that means I'm any less of a "Firefly" fan than I was when I wrote it or uploaded it to my own website. And I don't for a second believe my being upset--were it my creative endeavours at stake here--makes me less of a 'true fan.'

And if anyone thinks different, then please, feel free to speak your piece.

--
Some take the high road. Some take the low road.
And some just go screaming down the highway, dropping flaming bits of wreckage.

KIRTIL

Thursday, April 17, 2003 8:31 PM

Thanks Maniacnumberone for quick reply.

I will wait on you to post it on web page mate the download rate on my modem frustrates me even when i wait on webpages it would give me time to download with my cable connection when my vacation ends.

Keep flying
have a good sex
i'll be in my bunk

SUCCATASH

Friday, April 18, 2003 12:41 AM

Posted by LJC
No offence, but unless these folks have given you permission to mirror their music vids, I'd suggest contacting them and asking, and in the meantime, taking them down... Content theft, even out of ignorance, is the quickest way to get folks hella mad at you...

If you've gotten permissionf rom all the fan vidders already, then of coruse just ignore this. But if you haven't, PLEASE take this to heart and contact them immediately.

LJC, I have to say you are being a bit ridiculous. Nia violated copyright laws by "borrowing" the Firefly clips and the music track. On her site she states, "Disclaimeramo: I do not own the material used to create these fan videos, which are made neither for profit nor infringement."

She did not receive permission from Fox, or the band that created the music soundtrack. She does not give them credit in her videos. She could have created a logo for herself or put her name on the video, but she chose not to.

Maniac has done nothing wrong. Neither has Nia, in my opinion, because she is not trying to make money or claim the material as her own.

Lighten up, eh?

SHINY

Friday, April 18, 2003 12:51 AM

For those who are interested, the Kaylee music video can be found here:

http://kellystarsigns.com/firefly/index.html

Although I personally think that the River music video at the link LJC posted earlier is the best. "Girl and a gun" indeed!

HOTFORKAYLEE

Friday, April 18, 2003 1:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Posted by LJC

LJC, I have to say you are being a bit ridiculous. Nia violated copywrited material by "borrowing" the Firefly clips and the music track. On her site she states, "Disclaimeramo: I do not own the material used to create these fan videos, which are made neither for profit nor infringement."

She did not receive permission from Fox, or the band that created the music. She does not give them credit in her videos. She could have created a logo for herself or put her name on the video, but she chose not to.

Maniac has done nothing wrong. Neither has Nia, in my opinion, because she is not trying to make money or claim the material as her own.

Lighten up, eh?

Succatash and Maniac, while I basically agree with what you are saying it is only right to ask permission. Granted, Nia can't come after you in any legal sense since she infringed on copyrights but I'm sure she would like at least credit for putting them together. The interviews though, that's a little stickier and fox probably won't like an open link to their copyrighted material. Don't get me wrong, I have downloaded all this off the site and appreciate it. Lot easier than Kazaa. Maybe you should at least give credit to everyone involved. As far as the videos they can't do anything, but do you really want to piss off other fans? It's a tough call, try to use your best judgement.

By the way, tommorrow night my mom and dad are watching Serenity with me.

Quote:
"The truth points to itself."
"What?"
"The truth points to itself."
"I do not understand."
"You will."

SUCCATASH

Friday, April 18, 2003 3:30 AM

I'm sure she would like at least credit for putting them together.

I am defending Maniac because LJC threatened him with words like "content theft" and told him to remove the videos if he didn't have permission.

It's almost comic the way LJC tells Maniac how to run his website, quoting copyright infrigement and demanding permission be given from the original author. What a fucking joke.

LJC should have simply provided Maniac with Nia's information. Maniac owns the website and he is very happy to give Nia credit for her wonderful work. He just didn't know; he needed information he didn't have. Accusing him of content theft is ridiculous and very rude. Maniac is SHARING, being nice, just like Nia.

Nia is obviously very good at video editing. It's very common and easy to embed a logo or URL into the video clip. Again, as I said before, Nia obviously chose not to give herself credit.

Videos of this type are meant to be passed around. Maniac is PAYING for bandwidth to allow the sharing of this file. People are downloading it for FREE. He's bending over backwards for the Browncoats, and I can't believe the way people are giving him shit. He does not deserve it.

LJC is full of shit. How can she bully Maniac around saying things like, "Not to mention, music vids (like fanfic) violate copyright."

NIA STOLE THE VIDEO AND THE MUSIC! IT'S JUST TO SHARE BECAUSE WE'RE FANS!

KAYTHRYN

Friday, April 18, 2003 3:55 AM

Group hug!
....Wait, bad timing?

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

SUCCATASH

Friday, April 18, 2003 4:06 AM

It's not bad timing, Kaythryn. Need some Wookie love?

KAYTHRYN

Friday, April 18, 2003 4:11 AM

Hey, I'll take a kiss from Succatash over a hug any day!
back at you.

Oh! And I forgot to add- we have to be nice to ljc, she writes those Kaylee/Simon fics I love so much.

Okay, another, another thing I forgot to add- Anyone know why I can't post a new thread? (No need to comment on my normal technologicalistic problems, or creative spelling).
-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

KAYTHRYN

Friday, April 18, 2003 4:34 AM

Okay, "burning zipper"? Are my eyes playing tricks on me? Humorous little buggers. I bet it's some super secret code name, right? Because I just don't see "burning zipper" coming from "Firefly" and I don't care how foreign you might be.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

SUCCATASH

Friday, April 18, 2003 4:42 AM

I hope Nia will post her thoughts.

NIA

Friday, April 18, 2003 5:05 AM

Nia appreciates both LJC contacting her about this and Maniac's understanding (and is flattered that he liked her vid enough to want to mirror it).

Nia doesn't appreciate her motives or emotions being speculated about.

I didn't *choose* not to give myself credit -- yes, I "stole" or, as is more appropriate, appropriated that music and video footage to make the vid, but I also used it to form new creative output. Ergo, I and most others who have created and enjoyed fanvids find credit a common courtesy. Watermarking is *not* by default the vidders' responsibility -- and, in fact, I work with very old software, and didn't at the time have the ability to make a clearly visible text panel. Nor are all videos are even "just to share"; some are simply for the enjoyment of a single fan or a small group of them. (As was originally the case with this vid -- the only place I *ever* linked to it was my journal. No FF forums, no vidding groups, nada. My first vid and very obviously so, I just kept it up on the off chance that other Firefly fen might find it interesting).
Like I said, I really appreciated Maniac and LJC getting in touch with me today, and I understand that not everyone is familiar with what I would consider not just conventions of vidding but common sense fan relations. But I thought attacking LJC like that was uncalled for, and I would rather be in the position of defending myself than have her be belittled for my choices.

Nia

MANIACNUMBERONE

Friday, April 18, 2003 7:08 AM

Nia, (I shouldn't be surprised to find you are a Firefly fan) I hope that you didn't think that I had prior knowledge that you were responsible for putting into an organized form those different media elements of others' prior creation. Make no mistake, I did not know. I didn't get them from you or your site, and I had never heard of you before today. Let it further be known that the first thing I did upon finding out your identity was to contact you requesting your acceptance of my proposal to occasionally host an appropriation on my site. I would submit that my Firefly tribute page did (and still does) state at the bottom, that all video's are presumed to be public domain files.
I would also say that it is an unfortunate error that, on your website, you did not state that you did not want those appropriation's to be used by others. If you post an appropriation on the web (anywhere, even on a password protected site) you should tell people what they can and cannot do with it. I am not saying this for my own sake, because I didn't get that River appropriation from your site, I got it from someone else's site. And I would be very very surprised to find out that your River appropriation was not posted on many other sites as well.
As per your wishes I will not host your appropriation... sorry to all who might have been expecting to get it from my site.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

LJC

Friday, April 18, 2003 3:32 PM

Okay, my last word on this whole entire thing...

Fan fiction, fan websites, and fannish music vids steal from our betters (Firefly). That's the nature of fandom.

However, the nature of fandom is also never to steal from your *peers.*

That's why you ask fellow fans if you can host their fannish works first--you don't just take it and put it up on your own website, or publish it in your own fanzines, or whatever. You ask politely, and include links back to folks sites, disclaimers, etc., most folks are more than happy to share. But if they ask you not to, you take that in stride too. It's just the way things are. But you always ask first.

I stand by my words that's just just common courtesy, and that I do not believe that expecting fans to respect one another makes me not "a true fan."

If you find a nifty keen story or website or vid? You don't download and re-upload it to your own server. You post the url and share it that way. It's just what you do. It's what makes a fannish community a *community.*

Call me names, swear at me, whatever. But I'm not gonna change my mind. And if you go back and re-read my posts, all I was saying is that I thought what Maniac had done was wrong--not his motives, which were great (wanting to share the fannish music vids he'd found). But that the way he'd gone about it. It's not about legalities, or copyright--it's about fans treating one another with care and respect.

I did make sure that Maniac knew the email addresses of both vidders, and I made sure the vidders knew their vids were being mirror'd on his site. That was the very first thing I did. I was not bossing anyone around, but if you choose to see it that way, I surely can't stop you.

--
Some take the high road. Some take the low road.
And some just go screaming down the highway, dropping flaming bits of wreckage.

SUCCATASH

Saturday, April 19, 2003 12:14 AM

Posted by LJC:
"However, the nature of fandom is also never to steal from your *peers.* ...all I was saying is that I thought what Maniac had done was wrong"

Look. Maniac DID NOT download the River video from Nia. He had never heard of Nia. The River video has been passed all around the Internet. There is no label on the video whatsoever.

He had no idea whose video it was, he was simply trying to be kind. It costs money to download big files and he was GIVING to the Browncoats, not stealing from them.

You sure are being bitchy about this. Your all-holy attitude is a joke. Maniac just needed information. He certainly didn't need your idle threats and accusations of thievery.

Maniac is down in the dumps now because he tried to do something nice and you shit on his head.

He deserves an apology.

ELKETANZER

Saturday, April 19, 2003 4:25 AM

> Look. Maniac DID NOT download the River video from Nia. He had never heard of Nia.

He has now, and unlike you, he's paying attention to her requests.

Sounds like you need to be the one apologizing, Succotash.

You love her work so much you want to share it with the world, and consequences don't matter. That's really the spirit of a true fan, right?

Your arrogant, selfish, inconsiderate behavior disgusts me. Actions speak louder than words, and your actions say you don't care one whit about other fans.

For anyone who wants to learn something about fannish etiquette, if you ever write your own fanfic, make your own art, make your own songvids, please read this link:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/elke_tanzer/148366.html

SUCCATASH

Saturday, April 19, 2003 5:21 AM

How am I being selfish? What do I get out of it?

I am PAYING for the bandwidth. It's a gift, I'm like Jesus, in a way. You remind me of Satan's little midget helper.

This whole thing started because Manaic got called a thief. He deserves an apology.

I am trying to make a point that taking yourself too seriously really isn't a good idea. Being hypocrytical isn't such a good idea, either.

I don't really want to pay for Gigs of transfers of these files. But I'm forking out money, keeping the Firefly spirit alive. It's my gift to all my Browncoat friends.

To the people who took copyrighted material and now say, "Don't share MY work with anyone unless you worship me first!" Well, I say, you can kiss my ass.

Nia, you allowed your anonymous River video to get passed around the world. Take responsibility. Get over yourself.

Vote on this issue. Or, download the music videos!
http://www.strangefinger.com/firefly.html

ELKETANZER

Saturday, April 19, 2003 5:28 AM

Now your comparing yourself to Jesus? How lovely. I'll ignore the personal insults because they're frankly not worth my time.

Your gift to fellow Browncoats is disrespect to a creative fellow fan, rudeness, and a failure to educate yourself on the legal issues, etiquette, and confrontational issues that just happened *yesterday* in this fandom. That's all lovely, too.

Save your money. Don't pay for distribution of fannish work that you didn't create without the permission of the creator(s). How complicated is that?

Honest, kindergarteners are taught May I, Please and Thank You. I find it amazing how many adults forget that.

SUCCATASH

Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:34 AM

elketanzer wrote:
"Your gift to fellow Browncoats is disrespect to a creative fellow fan, rudeness..."

I have given my heart and soul to this cause. I have submitted my own written Firefly stories to this website, and I have made Haken and others laugh out loud more times than you have had sex this year.

You are wrong about me. You are just being a dick, and so are your "friends."

ELKETANZER

Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:39 AM

My sex life is completely none of your business.

I'm glad you've made the mods on this site laugh, because you've also made other fanfiction authors, artists and vidders very upset and angry. You betrayed Nia, not the other way around. In fact, by not listening when people explain truth to you, you are betraying the fan community you believe yourself to be serving.

And now you've reduced yourself to namecalling when I've honestly been trying to explain to you what and why the repercussions of your actions today are and will be.

I'd like to think no one is hopeless, that everyone is capable of understanding these issues, but you are starting to make me question that idea.

Elke

SUCCATASH

Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:49 AM

I like the way you turn a phrase, Elk. You are correct (thankfully), that your sex life is none of my business.

Are you suggesting that there is a new law that will prevent fans from creating artwork like Nia's video?

Or are you suggesting that there is a new law which will prevent me from sharing this "fan artwork" with my friends?

Nia should be allowed to create her videos. She also should be given credit for them. I have never disputed that.

If Firefly fans want to make "art" because they like the show, that's really great. But that is all it is. It's great, and it helps grow the audience. That's what it is all about.

ELKETANZER

Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:54 AM

I'm going to crosspost from the other thread about this, because you still seem to be missing my point.

There are no new laws, but there are existing ones which are pertinent to this discussion. Writers, folks who draw and paint and sculp, vidders... anyone who creates fannish work based on shows or movies whose copyrights and trademarks belong to others... need to be aware of these issues.

*deep breath*

Fanfiction writers, artists and vidders walk a fine line by posting their work on the Internet. Their activities only survive because the copyright and trademark owners are not directly confronted by the infringements.

If the owner of a trademark (either TV show, movie, or music) does not defend their trademark, they can lose it. Defending a trademark means that the owner must actively prosecute anyone who infringes on it, otherwise they are allowing it to become a public property, and are yielding their trademarks, something modern megacorps never want to do.

Just yesterday a well-meaning fan presented a CD of songvids to Nate Fillion, against the expressly stated wishes of at least one of the vidders whose work was on the CD. The fan also intended to give the CD to Joss Whedon, but was stopped in time. This fan apparently never read the requests at the vidders' own websites, though some of the URLs were right in some of the vids. Both the fan and the community where the CDs were suggested and encouraged have since had all of the pertinent issues explained to them, and much hurt feelings were felt all around, both by the well meaning fan and the vidders.

Vidders can only keep from being noticed by lawyers if they can trust other fans to heed their wishes regarding distribution of their songvids.

Otherwise, the vidders risk losing their websites and worse. Cease and Desist orders are darned scary business.

I'm sure you understand how that feels now, even though your site's TOS action doesn't directly involve lawyers at this point.

Please understand that the fan community enjoys the work of many creative fans, who as individuals shoulder a lot of the risk of attracting lawyer-attention. In exchange, the fannish consumers are expected to behave like rational adults, and to understand the issues involved.

If you want to evangelize about your favorite show, that's great, but either do it using your own work, or the work of other fans *who have given you permission* to use theirs.

Do not assume that because a fan has created something and shared it with you that you can do anything you want with it, or the fandom as a whole, the entire community, is harmed.

More information about copyrights and trademarks in regard to fannish vidding, fanfiction and artwork is available... all anyone had to do was talk with any one of the fannish vidders, who were well aware of these issues before creating their vids.

Elke

SUCCATASH

Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:58 AM

I'm picturing a bunch of fat girls waving candy bars, singing "I got to be me."

The only fan artists who are liable are the ones who try to control the way their "borrowed" material is distributed.

ELKETANZER

Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:03 AM

Again, I've not made any judgements about your weight or sex life. I'm trying damned hard to ignore your insults, but this is getting really annoying.

You seem to have no concept whatsoever of the pertinent laws or courtesy issues. Why is that? Are you reading anything at all that I've posted here, or do you just enjoy flying off the handle and insulting me?

No, wait, you don't need to answer that. Your previous posts and behavior illustrate quite clearly how much of a self-centered egotist you are, and how much you enjoy insulting people.

I've tried being rational. I've tried explaining the facts to you. You are choosing to ignore all of that and just go on living in your own little world where you can do anything you want and no one else's thoughts, feelings, or legal situation matter one little bit.

Like I said, such a great show doesn't deserve fans like you.

Elke

SUCCATASH

Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:49 AM

Hey, you just copied this from the other thread. Are you running out of arguments?

Did you get permission to say the same thing twice?

ELKETANZER

Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:01 AM

As I said in the post, I cross-posted from the other thread. You're just noticing this now? Gee, you're quick.

BONIBARU

Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Reason one is they are not true fans. I don't believe that though, or they probably wouldn't have made them, huh? Second possible reason is that they possibly have something going on the side (with which they make money), on their website, and those free video's bring in needed traffic. If that were the reason, I would fully understand. Third possible reason they might not want me to mirror those video's on another site, (and this one's the worst of all) they didn't actually make them, and don't want to get caught saying they did on multiple websites--cause I would surely reference them as the video's source. Fourth reason, they are greedy with the video's they made and with the access rights to them. They want to get credit instead of sharing the joy of Firefly fandom with others. If that were the reason, I would say they are not true fans.

None of those reasons, at least for me.

First: It takes several weeks to make a music video - it's a long and -painstaking process. You don't throw one together in a few hours (not and have it be any good). So no person who is not a true fan is going to bother to take that time.

Second: making money off of a music video is vastly illegal and can land you not only with a C&D order, but under arrest and in jail. Any vidder that's making a profit off their videos is in deep deep trouble.

Third: Hey, this happens, but so far not frequently. And I can vouch for the fact that I made my vids, I have the dark circles under my eyes to prove it :)

Fourth: It's just common courtesy to ask first. Like your parents taught you: don't hit, share your toys, ask people before you do something with their stuff :) Just good netiquette.

I've found the majority of FF fans to be great people, kind, respectful. I'm pleased to see that at least you responded by trying to find the contact info to get in touch with the vidders. That's a refreshing change from that "other thread".

BONIBARU

Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Or are you suggesting that there is a new law which will prevent me from sharing this "fan artwork" with my friends?

Nope, the old laws work just fine. As evidenced by the fact that your site is gone.

You might want to read over the TOS agreement from your webhost before you go posting music videos on your site.

BONIBARU

Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:23 PM

Quote:

Granted, Nia can't come after you in any legal sense since she infringed on copyrights but I'm sure she would like at least credit for putting them together. The interviews though, that's a little stickier and fox probably won't like an open link to their copyrighted material.

Ah - but anyone can go to your ISP and tell them that you have a music video on your site, and the ISP will take it down. Nia doesn't have to be the one to do it. They can also then cancel your *entire* site, for violation of TOS agreement, and they don't have to refund your fees or anything like that. In other words, you're up the creek, no paddle.

And you're right about the Interviews. I can even give a specific example: a Witchblade fan site had copies of cast interviews up on their website, that were taken from the official network site. Her ISP received a C&D letter from the TNT lawyers and her entire site was removed because of those interviews.

THOSE are official files that belong to Fox. Fox is notorious for shutting down fan sites - just ask anyone from Buffy, X-Files fandoms that had experience with Fox back when those shows were popular. Check here: http://www.bringers.org.uk/ for lots more info.

Dozens of X-Files and Buffy sites have been pursued and shut down by Fox for not just videos, but fanfiction, wallpapers and graphics, screencaps, quotes, etc. They *have* to shut your site down if it comes to your attention. According to copyright law, if they don't defend their copyright, they lose the right to claim it. They're pretty good about not going out and looking for fan sites, but that doesn't mean they can ignore it if it's directly shown to them.

HOPE

Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:57 PM

Well, Succatash, I can tell you that I'm one of those potential Firefly fans who is now not likely to watch because of your behavior. I have no doubt the majority of FF fans don't share your views, but it only takes one to make it dangerous to share fannish works.

Everybody agrees that TPB can take legal action at any time against fan fiction authors, fan vidders, fan artists, so it's up to the individual artist to weigh the legalrisks against the fannish benefits. If I put my work on my website and get C&Ded, oh well- that's my fault. If you take my work and put it on your website, which may or may not have the same passwords, structure or disclaimer, you've just decided that you have the right to put me in further legal jeopardy with or without my knowledge.

What happened to your site is exactly what happens to lots of fan sites- has nothing to do with betraying the fandom, has everything to do with the fact that you, too, were hosting files that have legal liability, a legal liability that you chose to assume when you posted the vids.

Quote:

Customers are prohibited from transmitting on or through any of MICROWORLD DOTCOM's services, any material that is, in MICROWORLD DOTCOM's sole discretion, unlawful, obscene, threatening, abusive, libelous, or hateful, or encourages conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or otherwise violate any local, state, national or international law.

That's from your TOS, that's why you got TOSed, and why vidders are really very careful about where and with whom they host their files. An object lesson for you, perhaps?

MELYMBROSIA

Saturday, April 19, 2003 3:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bonibaru:
They *have* to shut your site down if it comes to your attention. According to copyright law, if they don't defend their copyright, they lose the right to claim it. They're pretty good about not going out and looking for fan sites, but that doesn't mean they can ignore it if it's directly shown to them.

Point of pedantry: This is true of trademark, but not of copyright. Copyright remains whether or not any particular abuse of it is challenged, and copyright owners can still claim damages for one violation of copyright and not another.

BRIGHID

Saturday, April 19, 2003 3:38 PM

Quote:
If Firefly fans want to make "art" because they like the show, that's really great. But that is all it is. It's great, and it helps grow the audience. That's what it is all about.

I've been following this all over the place, and you know, I don't usually dive in because I don't like the headache. And I'm not entirely sure there's a lot of listening going on here. But ...

I've enjoyed various forms of fandom, including FF, for about 18 years now. SF cons, clubs and online lists. It's fun. Neat people share stuff within the fandom community. When things go well, it's wonderful.

But ... you have to have a basic degree of respect for one another. It doesn't have to be all adoration and white-light, but *respect*. There are so many different views of what fandom is about, your claim above makes that clear, since yours is not one I would ever have thought of. Since it does hold such divergent views, the only way to assure its survival is by accepting what people's boundaries are, doing the whole "please, thank-you and you're welcome" thing. Listening when someone asks you to stop. No means no in fandom, just like it does everywhere else.

You see these people's creative works as a promotion of the show and you treat them as such. The people who made them feel differently. Since they made them, they're the ones whose opinions should count first. A for instance? Say you bordered your yard with a gorgeous garden. You spent time and money putting it together (even though someone else developed the species you used and you got your design ideas from a great book -- but, hey, you still put in the sweat equity and the love.) I, walking by, adore your flowers. And pick myself a helluva bouquet of them. Denude the front yard. And then leave.

You'd most likely feel a bit violated. You might think twice about the expense and effort of putting that garden together again. And you're whole neighbourhood is therefore drabber, drearier and no one is better off, not even me, because eventually picked flowers die.

That's what happens in fandom, too. If the people who contribute through archives, lists, writing, art or vidding feel like they're being treated badly ... they stop producing. They stop sharing. Sometimes they even leave fandom.

I know this because I've seen it happen.

So, you like the art that's emerging in FF fandom? Respect the artists. Respect their wishes. That's the only way to keep things of beauty and quality coming.

BONIBARU

Saturday, April 19, 2003 4:18 PM

Maniac - I just wanted to say that I think you've handled this in a very responsible manner and you should be thanked for it.

So, thank you.

SHINETHEWAY

Saturday, April 19, 2003 5:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
I would highly disagree with you. Why make those great video's if not to share them. They are offering them for free on their own sites, so why would they not allow them to be mirrored? There could be a few possible reasons. Note: I don't subscribe to any of these beliefs - they are just possibilities. Reason one is they are not true fans. I don't believe that though, or they probably wouldn't have made them, huh? Second possible reason is that they possibly have something going on the side (with which they make money), on their website, and those free video's bring in needed traffic. If that were the reason, I would fully understand. Third possible reason they might not want me to mirror those video's on another site, (and this one's the worst of all) they didn't actually make them, and don't want to get caught saying they did on multiple websites--cause I would surely reference them as the video's source. Fourth reason, they are greedy with the video's they made and with the access rights to them. They want to get credit instead of sharing the joy of Firefly fandom with others. If that were the reason, I would say they are not true fans.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

I just wanted to comment on the idea of a "true fan," because I've been a fan for six years, I adore fandom, much of my life is oriented around it, and I don't think I've ever heard "true fan" used this way.

(I write, personally, so that's what much of my perspective is. All of this can be extended to include any sort of fannish-art producer, whether zines, vids, art, or anything else.)

Fen, when they produce stuff, do not leave themselves at the door. A writer, no matter how good she is, is a person; she isn't just A Writer, without feelings or thoughts or emotions. Writers have bad days, and good days, and emergencies with their kids, and candlelit dinners with their husbands, and car problems, and their leftovers go moldy just like everyone else. They're people. And, when they share stuff, they do so because they love their show, and they love the people around them, and for other reasons that are more personal. Sometimes they DON'T want to share, even--I've written fic for friends that I adamantly do not want public; I enjoyed writing them, but they were private and personal. But that doesn't mean that, once shared, writers forfeit all right over their stories, that their stories now belong to The Void. Writers aren't machines, and creativity doesn't go away just because it's now an internet file.

To be a "true fan" is to love your fandom. Period. Being a "true fan" has nothing to do with whether you are willing to grant blanket permission for every yahoo (not that you are, but some people in fandom are pretty looney-tunes) who wants to post stuff indiscriminately to do so. Personally, I post pretty freely--no passwords, very few "private" stories just between friends, on both my LJ and my website. And I would gut and skin anyone who showed my fanfic to the people who are my source-material. Ditto to people who stole my stories and posted them on their own website as unattributed or wrongly attributed. Being a "true fan" does not mean that you have to give up all claim to what you have worked so long and hard to create.

You mentioned a note on your site that all your files are public domain. I really don't think fan creations are public domain. Someone MADE that vid, spent hours or days or weeks working on it, fussed about the transition in 3:45, worried because they couldn't find the exact right footage for X lyric, or had three perfect shots for Y. Just because you don't know who it was, doesn't mean they don't exist.

The files may be on loan, but they are ultimately the property of their creator, unless they have been formally transferred over in some way (if someone gives away an icon, for instance). If someone

ELKETANZER

Saturday, April 19, 2003 6:57 PM

Thank you for posting, ShineTheWay. It sounded eloquent to me.

Elke

MANIACNUMBERONE

Saturday, April 19, 2003 7:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bonibaru:
Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Reason one is they are not true fans. I don't believe that though, or they probably wouldn't have made them, huh? Second possible reason is that they possibly have something going on the side (with which they make money), on their website, and those free video's bring in needed traffic. If that were the reason, I would fully understand. Third possible reason they might not want me to mirror those video's on another site, (and this one's the worst of all) they didn't actually make them, and don't want to get caught saying they did on multiple websites--cause I would surely reference them as the video's source. Fourth reason, they are greedy with the video's they made and with the access rights to them. They want to get credit instead of sharing the joy of Firefly fandom with others. If that were the reason, I would say they are not true fans.

None of those reasons, at least for me.

First: It takes several weeks to make a music video - it's a long and -painstaking process. You don't throw one together in a few hours (not and have it be any good). So no person who is not a true fan is going to bother to take that time.

Second: making money off of a music video is vastly illegal and can land you not only with a C&D order, but under arrest and in jail. Any vidder that's making a profit off their videos is in deep deep trouble.

Third: Hey, this happens, but so far not frequently. And I can vouch for the fact that I made my vids, I have the dark circles under my eyes to prove it :)

Fourth: It's just common courtesy to ask first. Like your parents taught you: don't hit, share your toys, ask people before you do something with their stuff :) Just good netiquette.

I've found the majority of FF fans to be great people, kind, respectful. I'm pleased to see that at least you responded by trying to find the contact info to get in touch with the vidders. That's a refreshing change from that "other thread".

Thanks for reading the whole thread Try inserting this at the beginning like I did, and then leave me alone. "There could be a few possible reasons. Note: I don't subscribe to any of these beliefs - they are just possibilities."

MANIACNUMBERONE

Saturday, April 19, 2003 7:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bonibaru:
Quote:

Granted, Nia can't come after you in any legal sense since she infringed on copyrights but I'm sure she would like at least credit for putting them together. The interviews though, that's a little stickier and fox probably won't like an open link to their copyrighted material.

Ah - but anyone can go to your ISP and tell them that you have a music video on your site, and the ISP will take it down. Nia doesn't have to be the one to do it. They can also then cancel your *entire* site, for violation of TOS agreement, and they don't have to refund your fees or anything like that. In other words, you're up the creek, no paddle.

And you're right about the Interviews. I can even give a specific example: a Witchblade fan site had copies of cast interviews up on their website, that were taken from the official network site. Her ISP received a C&D letter from the TNT lawyers and her entire site was removed because of those interviews.

THOSE are official files that belong to Fox. Fox is notorious for shutting down fan sites - just ask anyone from Buffy, X-Files fandoms that had experience with Fox back when those shows were popular. Check here: http://www.bringers.org.uk/ for lots more info.

Dozens of X-Files and Buffy sites have been pursued and shut down by Fox for not just videos, but fanfiction, wallpapers and graphics, screencaps, quotes, etc. They *have* to shut your site down if it comes to your attention. According to copyright law, if they don't defend their copyright, they lose the right to claim it. They're pretty good about not going out and looking for fan sites, but that doesn't mean they can ignore it if it's directly shown to them.

As to this Succatash could have gone to Nia's site and done the same thing to her. You are being pretty hypocritical here, people. Step back and take a look at your own thievery before you accuse others.

ELKETANZER

Saturday, April 19, 2003 7:46 PM

ManiacNumberOne, do you really want to start this up again? You've already gotten some recognition for being more rational that Succatash.

Elke

MANIACNUMBERONE

Saturday, April 19, 2003 8:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shinetheway:
Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
I would highly disagree with you. Why make those great video's if not to share them. They are offering them for free on their own sites, so why would they not allow them to be mirrored? There could be a few possible reasons. Note: I don't subscribe to any of these beliefs - they are just possibilities. Reason one is they are not true fans. I don't believe that though, or they probably wouldn't have made them, huh? Second possible reason is that they possibly have something going on the side (with which they make money), on their website, and those free video's bring in needed traffic. If that were the reason, I would fully understand. Third possible reason they might not want me to mirror those video's on another site, (and this one's the worst of all) they didn't actually make them, and don't want to get caught saying they did on multiple websites--cause I would surely reference them as the video's source. Fourth reason, they are greedy with the video's they made and with the access rights to them. They want to get credit instead of sharing the joy of Firefly fandom with others. If that were the reason, I would say they are not true fans.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

I just wanted to comment on the idea of a "true fan," because I've been a fan for six years, I adore fandom, much of my life is oriented around it, and I don't think I've ever heard "true fan" used this way.

(I write, personally, so that's what much of my perspective is. All of this can be extended to include any sort of fannish-art producer, whether zines, vids, art, or anything else.)

Fen, when they produce stuff, do not leave themselves at the door. A writer, no matter how good she is, is a person; she isn't just A Writer, without feelings or thoughts or emotions. Writers have bad days, and good days, and emergencies with their kids, and candlelit dinners with their husbands, and car problems, and their leftovers go moldy just like everyone else. They're people. And, when they share stuff, they do so because they love their show, and they love the people around them, and for other reasons that are more personal. Sometimes they DON'T want to share, even--I've written fic for friends that I adamantly do not want public; I enjoyed writing them, but they were private and personal. But that doesn't mean that, once shared, writers forfeit all right over their stories, that their stories now belong to The Void. Writers aren't machines, and creativity doesn't go away just because it's now an internet file.

To be a "true fan" is to love your fandom. Period. Being a "true fan" has nothing to do with whether you are willing to grant blanket permission for every yahoo (not that you are, but some people in fandom are pretty looney-tunes) who wants to post stuff indiscriminately to do so. Personally, I post pretty freely--no passwords, very few "private" stories just between friends, on both my LJ and my website. And I would gut and skin anyone who showed my fanfic to the people who are my source-material. Ditto to people who stole my stories and posted them on their own website as unattributed or wrongly attributed. Being a "true fan" does not mean that you have to give up all claim to what you have worked so long and hard to create.

You mentioned a note on your site that all your files are public domain. I really don't think fan creations are public domain. Someone MADE that vid, spent hours or days or weeks working on it, fussed about the transition in 3:45, worried because they couldn't find the exact right footage for X lyric, or had three perfect shots for Y. Just because you don't know who it was, doesn't mean they don't exist.

The files may be on loan, but they are ultimately the property of their creator, unless they have been formally transferred over in some way (if someone g

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ELKETANZER

Saturday, April 19, 2003 8:30 PM

Oh, now you're just silly, ManiacNumberOne. If you can't reason logically, you bring God into it. Or gods, whichever works for you.

There is no difference between the various forms of fannish expression. Drawings, writings, sculptures, songvids, filks... they are the same when it comes to courtesy and respect for the fan who created them.

I do not understand how such an incredibly simple concept as "if it was made by someone else, ask before you do anything with it" is difficult for both ManiacNumberOne and Succatash to comprehend.

Why anyone would consider posting publically any of their fannish work in any format at all after all this?

It's really this simple (and yes, I've said this before, worded differently, but apparently it confused you):

1. Fannish creators should be respected for creating their work, and their wishes regarding its distribution heeded.

2. The reason for this is that all fannish activity is in the muddy grey waters of trademark, copyright, and intellectual property law.

No one needs to be on a god-pedestal to be granted basic respect.

Elke

BONIBARU

Saturday, April 19, 2003 8:34 PM

Maniac, I wasn't so much replying to you personally as I was quoting your comments in order to offer an explanation, since some people might have had the same thoughts that you were having.

Sigh. Earlier I wrote a post thanking you for handing this with such grace all the way through. Now I think I should take that back. I'm sorry you feel that you have to take posts about an *issue* as a personal attack on *you*.

MANIACNUMBERONE

Saturday, April 19, 2003 8:37 PM

"I do not understand how such an incredibly simple concept as "if it was made by someone else, ask before you do anything with it" is difficult for both ManiacNumberOne and Succatash to comprehend."

--This is easy to comprehend, and believe it or not, we respect this issue more than you do. You all need to take the issue up one step further. Ask Joss Whedon, Ask Fox, Ask Mutant Enemy. Until you do, you have not got the rights you speak of, you are one of the thieves. So jump off your incredibly high horse.

If you don't address that point in your next post, please don't post at all. Thank you.

SHINETHEWAY

Saturday, April 19, 2003 8:40 PM

If you feel I misunderstood, I apologize. I tried to read your original post very carefully, and not make assumptions. I'll try and explain myself more clearly in the future.

First, I used fanfiction as the example that I am most familiar with. However, any fan-created art is going to fall under the same set of guidelines. Artists, computer-graphic manippers, vidders, writers, zine editors, and anyone else who produces a piece of artwork that is derivative from an outside source, all have roughly the same system in their creation process, though the final product will vary. All of them adopt (or "poach," if you've read Textual Poachers by Henry Jenkins) materials, interpret them, modify them, personalize them to the audience, and re-release them.

I think where the two of us are diverging is our interpretation of ownership. Both of us agree that Nia (or any vidder) does not own the source material she used for her art. But I feel that the final product she produced--in this case, a vid--is completely hers. It would not exist had she not made it. It's similar to a cook being able to write and copyright a recipe, but the ingrediants of that recipe are free for all to use.

Regarding Nia and River, you ask why she "was giving it to others" if she's so concerned about litigation. It could be argued that she DIDN'T want it shared, and that your public posting of it was against her wishes. (A side note: you also asked why she didn't provide identification in the vid, and theorized that it was to avoid lawsuits. I believe she already answered that question, and said she couldn't include identification because her vidding software at the time wouldn't allow it.)

"Nor would I want them to turn it off. Just like I bet Nia is thinking."

I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you meant. Do you think you could elaborate?

Finally, regarding this:

[First there was nothing...
....then there was Nia.
Nia creates the universe with pure will!
From utter nothingness comes swirling form!!
Life begins where once was void!!
But Nia is no kind and loving God. She's one of the old Gods!! She demand sacrifice!!!
Yes, Nia is a God of the underworld!!
And the puny inhabitants of Firefly fandom displease her!! The great Nia ignores pleas for mercy and the doomed writhe in agony!!]

...right. Now, I don't know Nia, but I don't think this is exactly a nice thing to write about ANYONE. For one thing, it's incredibly rude and disrespectful--forget Nia-the-vidder, this is bashing Nia-the-person. For another, it almost totally misses the point. (By the way, if you bash people in public by calling them a god of the underworld, they tend not to let you mirror their vids on your site in the future. Just a thought.)

Artists create. They create using materials. Art doesn't come from nothing; it requires Things. The Art of art comes from using those Things in a new, special way. What the materials are changes from style to style--writers use language, painters use paint and canvas, architects use steel, vidders use footage, knitters use yarn, etc. And in some cases, the materials being used aren't tangible--words, for instance, or music. But they do exist.

The type of materials used does not necessarily invalidate the art that is produced. Incredibly powerful pieces of art have been produced using blood and cabbages and papier-mache. Rock and roll does not use instruments that are found in your average symphony, but rock is still an art medium. Vidding does not become less of an art form because the source material of the art is footage. Nia is an artist because very few can duplicate what she does, and no one can REPLICATE what she does. She has her own style, and the vids she produces are going to differ from anyone else's vids--even if they use the same song and the same set of episodes as a source.

Just like Rembrant took paint and canvas--items that have no intrinsic artistic value--and created masterpieces, Nia took footage and created vids. It's all about CREATION.

And when she gives it to a person or a fand

BONIBARU

Saturday, April 19, 2003 8:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bonibaru:
Maniac - I just wanted to say that I think you've handled this in a very responsible manner and you should be thanked for it.

So, thank you.

I TAKE IT BACK.

MANIACNUMBERONE

Saturday, April 19, 2003 8:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bonibaru:
Maniac, I wasn't so much replying to you personally as I was quoting your comments in order to offer an explanation, since some people might have had the same thoughts that you were having.

Sigh. Earlier I wrote a post thanking you for handing this with such grace all the way through. Now I think I should take that back. I'm sorry you feel that you have to take posts about an *issue* as a personal attack on *you*.

Hey when you do not quote what I said fully, I felt I had to put into place that what you quoted me as saying was incomplete. Do you think I want people believing that those "reasons" I gave were actual things I believed? I needed to defend myself by putting in the disclaimer you forgot to-- namely that I didn't believe that the possible reasons I was putting down were true, only that they were possibilities. And I did notice you defending me, and I appreciated it. Because I felt that even though I did do everything right along the way I got dissed on pretty bad.

Here's how it went down:

I found a great vid.
A few weeks later I saw someone wanted it on the taglog.
I posted saying I had it and would be happy to share, *(as it was unlabelled to creator).
I posted it on my site.
I was told (very rudely I might add) that I should ask for permission or take it down.
I responded (politely) that I didn't have the info or I would contacted the creator, and I asked if someone knew the creator.
I was given the info.
I contacted the person.
While waiting for persmission, the discussion of the true fan ensued.
LJC decided to take it upon herself to report me to Nia. (apparently not believing that I would follow my word)
LJC and Nia must have exchanged words to which I am not privy.
I was denied by Nia.
I took the gorram thing off my site.
this other set of ridiculous arguments started.
no one has payed much attention to what other people have written.
I have summed up.
this will probably not be read either.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

PHILOMEL

Saturday, April 19, 2003 8:55 PM

Um, maybe I'm being silly too, but perhaps it would be a good idea if everyone took a deep breath--and maybe waited a day or counted to ten or something--before continuing to post in this thread, because its looking pretty scary, with all the insults and whatnot being thrown around.

Maniac put up the material without knowing, and when his attention was drawn to the artists' wishes, he took it down. And y'know what? He doesn't have to agree with or understand the reasoning of the artist, or with any of us--just like the artist doesn't have to agree with him. He did the right thing anyway. All kinds of words were exchanged, but let's leave it at that.

At this point, if you ask me, this specific issue is dead, folks. Everything that's needed to be said has been said. The material has been removed from both sites. If ya wanna discuss etiquette and fan-related works generally, great, discuss, but sitting around firing off quick insults at each other is like taking the scenic route to the corner of No and Where.

And it's frightening the women.

KAYTHRYN

Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:12 PM

Manic,
What you did makes sense, and it’s probably what I would of done if I found a great unlabeled vid ( if I knew how to do web page stuff). It sounds like people just haven’t gotten the whole story (the fact that after the problem was brought to your attention you contacted Nia)-- only little bits and pieces at a time and have started making assumptions too quickly.

I don’t really see what it matters anyway. Why do you other people care so much? It’s really between Manic and Nia. If Manic had taken “your” work, then you should be arguing with him personally, perhaps though e-mails and not on this board.

Dang it Philomel,

Quote:
Posted by Philomel:
Um, maybe I'm being silly too, but perhaps it would be a good idea if everyone took a deep breath--and maybe waited a day or counted to ten or something--before continuing to post in this thread, because its looking pretty scary, with all the insults and whatnot being thrown around.

Maniac put up the material without knowing, and when his attention was drawn to the artists' wishes, he took it down. And y'know what? He doesn't have to agree with or understand the reasoning of the artist, or with any of us--just like the artist doesn't have to agree with him. He did the right thing anyway. All kinds of words were exchanged, but let's leave it at that.

At this point, if you ask me, this specific issue is dead, folks. Everything that's needed to be said has been said. The material has been removed from both sites. If ya wanna discuss etiquette and fan-related works generally, great, discuss, but sitting around firing off quick insults at each other is like taking the scenic route to the corner of No and Where.

And it's frightening the women.

You took the words right out of my mouth-- and I was on a roll too.

*Waving peace symbol and lighter while chanting*
“Make love, not war!"

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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

BONIBARU

Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Quote:

I was denied by Nia.

Nia's taken down her entire site, and so have I, and so has Debchan, and so have the other FF vidders that I know. I have a new FF vid I'm not going to release, and so does Silvia, and so does Shelia, and three other vidders who had vids in progress have stopped working on their vids due in part to what has happened here and what happened on the TWoP board with our vids being burned to CD and distributed without our prior knowledge. Just thinking about it makes my stomach hurt. I'm extremely upset. When I think about posting my new vid, my stomach hurts even more. I'm going to share it with a few friends, and that's it. I have lost my ability to trust people in the fandom that I don't already know very well.

Here's the thing.

Fandom is a community just like the real world. There are things that are, and are not, considered (by most) to be socially acceptable. Common sense and respect are always, always, the best things to use when dealing with other fans. We've all gotten pretty angry over the last couple of days and that's a very sad thing to have happen in such a normally tight-knit community of fans. We all LOVE the show. We've stuck together through some rough times. That doesn't mean we are all going to agree, or get along all the time. But we should try to treat each other with at least a modicum of respect.

Underneath the screen names of Nia, Elke, Bonibaru, Maniac, etc - we are real people with real feelings. We are not just words on a computer screen. We are not just clips set to music. I don't have any obligation to share my "Hallelujah" vid. I did so because I loved the show and I thought that other fans who loved the show would enjoy seeing the vid as an expression of that love for the show.

I am very careful to keep my website, where the vids are posted, out of the eyes of the powers-that-be of the shows I vid to. I go to extra measures to do this, to keep it off of search engines, etc. I am also careful to keep it out of the eyes of the recording artists - you know, the people who shut down Napster - because honestly, I'd be even more worried about getting a nasty legal notice from the guy who's song I used without permission, whether I have disclaimers all over the place or not. Your website is not necessarily as well protected as Nia's, which may be why she does not want you to post the vid there. I don't really feel that's unreasonable for her.

The entire point of being in a fandom community is: we share with each other. We share stories, screen caps, transcripts, thoughts, etc etc because we WANT to. Not respecting the wishes of the people producing these fannish works of art - who invest our time, money, energy, enthusiasm, into this, does not make us want to share. Exposing us to potential legal action, threatening us, implying that we lose any right to say what happens to our work and where it goes once we put it on the internet, does not make them want to keep sharing.

I have felt really betrayed by not only what's happened over the last couple of days regarding mine and others' vids, but by the attitude that I've seen in some of the FF fans - that I don't have a right to request that my vid not be put online anywhere but my site, that it not be brought to the attention of TPTB, etc. The idea that everyone else is ENTITLED to take it and do what they want with it. That is hurtful to me and I feel betrayed by the Firefly fans. I think Nia probably has too. What you did, you did out of ignorance, that's true (and I don't mean that as an insult e.g. "you're ignorant", I mean it as "you didn't know not to". I understand that.

But when a person resorts to name calling and personal insults, that person loses credibility. When fellow fans start dictating to me that I have no rights over the artwork I have worked very hard to make, and should not expect to be treated with respect and courtesy, it is devastating.

People judge the FF fandom on the behavior of

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

DEBCHAN

Saturday, April 19, 2003 9:17 PM

I think the time has passed for taking a deep breath and turning the other cheek. Someone has reported Nia to her ISP. I can only assume this was in revenge.

My vids, screen captures and Firefly media files (like the Good Morning Live segement and the one fron TechTV) are gone from my domain and will NEVER come back. The other Firefly vids I'm working on will never be released. I know several other vidders who are removing their vids from their sites even as we speak. I know of at least two other vidders who will never release the Firefly vids they've made.

Good job, guys. Congrats on making Firefly fandom a place where no one feels safe.

BKTHEIRREGULAR

Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:29 PM

This must be what the start of a war feels like.

Should people with fanfiction sites also worry?

Bruce (BK) (the irregular)

KAYTHRYN

Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:30 PM

Quote:
Posted by Debchan:
I notice this site has all sorts of copyright material on it; screen captures, scripts, and video files. Does the site owner have permission from Mutant Enemy and Fox?

Oh, don’t go there.

Boy, this is blown out of proportion. I hope everyone argues as passionately for a solution to end world hunger as they do to make sure someone gets proper credit or not or whatever for fan vids.

And Elketanzer honey, I just got your e-mail. Thanks for keeping it off the message board, but I can’t find an e-mail to write you back, so being my hypocritical self, I’m writing you back on the message board. No I wasn’t offended by your message in the least, but I’ve got a whole long bit to say, so if you give me your e-mail address, I’d love to continue this conversation. Here’s my e-mail- abbynormalartist@yahoo.com.

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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

SARAHETC

Saturday, April 19, 2003 10:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
[BHere's how it went down:

I found a great vid.
A few weeks later I saw someone wanted it on the taglog.
I posted saying I had it and would be happy to share, *(as it was unlabelled to creator).
I posted it on my site.

This is me. And most of me wants to take credit for this whole damn debacle for even asking to see one in the first place.

I'm sorry. Great big kowtowing apologies to every actual vidder who now refuses to post any more vids. I only ever got to see 4 and they were all shiny. I regret that I won't be able to see more. If I could change it--even by gettin' all bendy-- I would.

Great big kowtowing apologies to my men, Maniac and Succatash for starting y'all down this trail. And maybe for not piping up sooner. Though I really don't think my opinion is worth anything. But I was the one who asked to see vids and now here we are.

That said: everybody, with the exception of Phil and Kaythryn, is taking themselves way too seriously. I understand that there are legal issues. Yes. Let the fandom (I'm actually starting to think of them as fan-cliques: flicks) not become embroiled in legal issues. Otherwise, all y'all calm down.

Again, apolgies. Won't happen again, Sir.

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

BLUEHOOT

Tuesday, April 22, 2003 10:04 PM

This is just a general response.

If anyone is not familiar with what can happen with someone defending their copywright and trademarks in fandom, I suggest researching the Pern fandom. Anne McCaffrey is the author of the Dragonriders of Pern series. She and her legal advisors have very very actively defended their copywrights and trademarks. They even sold all gaming rights to another company, which includes informal RPs and if you dont follow their rules, they will shut you down. Theres lots of info floating around on the net pertaining to this. some of it is at www.burnedforfandom.org

With that in mind, I have been known to borrow some screencaps and whatnot to create other things (and if you dont already know what these other things are and want specifics, email me). I do not claim ownership to any of these 'things' and I do credit (when I know who to credit) the rightful owners of such parent material, no matter what the finished result is. Like I always credit Fox et al and Mutant Enemy for any screencaps. I still take that risk of getting my site shut down.

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I wish I was a jellyfish because jellyfish dont pay rent.

VAMPIRESLAYER

Saturday, November 13, 2004 12:37 AM

Quote:
None of those reasons, at least for me.

First: It takes several weeks to make a music video - it's a long and -painstaking process. You don't throw one together in a few hours (not and have it be any good). So no person who is not a true fan is going to bother to take that time.

I don't think that's true. I've been a fan of BtVS and Joss Whedon since 1999, although I never watched Firefly(but I heard good things about it). Guess I should've, huh?

I've never made a fanvid, but I do enjoy them and not having made one does not make me any less of a fan than you or anyone else. In fact, most people that I know have told me that I'm absessed with BtVS and Angel. They're not wrong. Basically, what I'm trying to say is, you can be a "true fan" of something without ever writing a bit of fanfic or ever making a vid about it. For example, I consider myself a true fan of Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern series, but, per her request, I don't write and post fanfic about her books(outside of already-sanctioned clubs). So I don't appreciate the insinuation(no wait-blatant statement) that just because someone has no interest in making vids or lacks the ability and/or software to do so, means that they are not a true fan.

Buffy: "One more word out of you, and I swear..."
Spike: "Swear what? You're not gonna do anything to me. You don't have the stones."
Buffy: "Oh, I've got the stones. I've got a whole bunch of...stones."
Spike: "Yeah? You're all talk."
Buffy: "Giles! I accidentally killed Spike! That's ok, right?"

Buffy and Spike argue in "Something Blue"

GWENHARKER

Sunday, November 14, 2004 3:13 PM

My friend had made some fan videos for Buffy (and anyone who's been in Buffy fandom knows that if Fox finds you out, they will hunt you down). She had let others mirror/put up some of her videos and when FOX sent a cease and desist order to her, she complied and shut down her site.

When the leagel beagles went to make sure, they tagged the sites that had mirrored videos and she had to go to court because they thought that she had gotten other people to host her things.

So that's why it's good to ask those who make videos to host them. If they say no, you understand. Not only that, but people also like traffic to their websites. Just food for thought. Glad that everything seems to be clearing up.

GWENHARKER

Sunday, November 14, 2004 3:20 PM

A standard disclaimer is usually fine. Joss Loves Fanfiction (he's said so in severel interviews) so you're okay.