Kaylee Video link

POSTED BY: ManiacNumberOne
UPDATED: Sunday, November 14, 2004 15:20
VIEWED: 21957
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BONIBARU

Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Or are you suggesting that there is a new law which will prevent me from sharing this "fan artwork" with my friends?

Nope, the old laws work just fine. As evidenced by the fact that your site is gone.

You might want to read over the TOS agreement from your webhost before you go posting music videos on your site.

BONIBARU

Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:23 PM

Quote:

Granted, Nia can't come after you in any legal sense since she infringed on copyrights but I'm sure she would like at least credit for putting them together. The interviews though, that's a little stickier and fox probably won't like an open link to their copyrighted material.

Ah - but anyone can go to your ISP and tell them that you have a music video on your site, and the ISP will take it down. Nia doesn't have to be the one to do it. They can also then cancel your *entire* site, for violation of TOS agreement, and they don't have to refund your fees or anything like that. In other words, you're up the creek, no paddle.

And you're right about the Interviews. I can even give a specific example: a Witchblade fan site had copies of cast interviews up on their website, that were taken from the official network site. Her ISP received a C&D letter from the TNT lawyers and her entire site was removed because of those interviews.

THOSE are official files that belong to Fox. Fox is notorious for shutting down fan sites - just ask anyone from Buffy, X-Files fandoms that had experience with Fox back when those shows were popular. Check here: http://www.bringers.org.uk/ for lots more info.

Dozens of X-Files and Buffy sites have been pursued and shut down by Fox for not just videos, but fanfiction, wallpapers and graphics, screencaps, quotes, etc. They *have* to shut your site down if it comes to your attention. According to copyright law, if they don't defend their copyright, they lose the right to claim it. They're pretty good about not going out and looking for fan sites, but that doesn't mean they can ignore it if it's directly shown to them.

HOPE

Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:57 PM

Well, Succatash, I can tell you that I'm one of those potential Firefly fans who is now not likely to watch because of your behavior. I have no doubt the majority of FF fans don't share your views, but it only takes one to make it dangerous to share fannish works.

Everybody agrees that TPB can take legal action at any time against fan fiction authors, fan vidders, fan artists, so it's up to the individual artist to weigh the legalrisks against the fannish benefits. If I put my work on my website and get C&Ded, oh well- that's my fault. If you take my work and put it on your website, which may or may not have the same passwords, structure or disclaimer, you've just decided that you have the right to put me in further legal jeopardy with or without my knowledge.

What happened to your site is exactly what happens to lots of fan sites- has nothing to do with betraying the fandom, has everything to do with the fact that you, too, were hosting files that have legal liability, a legal liability that you chose to assume when you posted the vids.

Quote:

Customers are prohibited from transmitting on or through any of MICROWORLD DOTCOM's services, any material that is, in MICROWORLD DOTCOM's sole discretion, unlawful, obscene, threatening, abusive, libelous, or hateful, or encourages conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or otherwise violate any local, state, national or international law.

That's from your TOS, that's why you got TOSed, and why vidders are really very careful about where and with whom they host their files. An object lesson for you, perhaps?

MELYMBROSIA

Saturday, April 19, 2003 3:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bonibaru:
They *have* to shut your site down if it comes to your attention. According to copyright law, if they don't defend their copyright, they lose the right to claim it. They're pretty good about not going out and looking for fan sites, but that doesn't mean they can ignore it if it's directly shown to them.

Point of pedantry: This is true of trademark, but not of copyright. Copyright remains whether or not any particular abuse of it is challenged, and copyright owners can still claim damages for one violation of copyright and not another.

BRIGHID

Saturday, April 19, 2003 3:38 PM

Quote:
If Firefly fans want to make "art" because they like the show, that's really great. But that is all it is. It's great, and it helps grow the audience. That's what it is all about.

I've been following this all over the place, and you know, I don't usually dive in because I don't like the headache. And I'm not entirely sure there's a lot of listening going on here. But ...

I've enjoyed various forms of fandom, including FF, for about 18 years now. SF cons, clubs and online lists. It's fun. Neat people share stuff within the fandom community. When things go well, it's wonderful.

But ... you have to have a basic degree of respect for one another. It doesn't have to be all adoration and white-light, but *respect*. There are so many different views of what fandom is about, your claim above makes that clear, since yours is not one I would ever have thought of. Since it does hold such divergent views, the only way to assure its survival is by accepting what people's boundaries are, doing the whole "please, thank-you and you're welcome" thing. Listening when someone asks you to stop. No means no in fandom, just like it does everywhere else.

You see these people's creative works as a promotion of the show and you treat them as such. The people who made them feel differently. Since they made them, they're the ones whose opinions should count first. A for instance? Say you bordered your yard with a gorgeous garden. You spent time and money putting it together (even though someone else developed the species you used and you got your design ideas from a great book -- but, hey, you still put in the sweat equity and the love.) I, walking by, adore your flowers. And pick myself a helluva bouquet of them. Denude the front yard. And then leave.

You'd most likely feel a bit violated. You might think twice about the expense and effort of putting that garden together again. And you're whole neighbourhood is therefore drabber, drearier and no one is better off, not even me, because eventually picked flowers die.

That's what happens in fandom, too. If the people who contribute through archives, lists, writing, art or vidding feel like they're being treated badly ... they stop producing. They stop sharing. Sometimes they even leave fandom.

I know this because I've seen it happen.

So, you like the art that's emerging in FF fandom? Respect the artists. Respect their wishes. That's the only way to keep things of beauty and quality coming.

BONIBARU

Saturday, April 19, 2003 4:18 PM

Maniac - I just wanted to say that I think you've handled this in a very responsible manner and you should be thanked for it.

So, thank you.

SHINETHEWAY

Saturday, April 19, 2003 5:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
I would highly disagree with you. Why make those great video's if not to share them. They are offering them for free on their own sites, so why would they not allow them to be mirrored? There could be a few possible reasons. Note: I don't subscribe to any of these beliefs - they are just possibilities. Reason one is they are not true fans. I don't believe that though, or they probably wouldn't have made them, huh? Second possible reason is that they possibly have something going on the side (with which they make money), on their website, and those free video's bring in needed traffic. If that were the reason, I would fully understand. Third possible reason they might not want me to mirror those video's on another site, (and this one's the worst of all) they didn't actually make them, and don't want to get caught saying they did on multiple websites--cause I would surely reference them as the video's source. Fourth reason, they are greedy with the video's they made and with the access rights to them. They want to get credit instead of sharing the joy of Firefly fandom with others. If that were the reason, I would say they are not true fans.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
----------------------------------

I just wanted to comment on the idea of a "true fan," because I've been a fan for six years, I adore fandom, much of my life is oriented around it, and I don't think I've ever heard "true fan" used this way.

(I write, personally, so that's what much of my perspective is. All of this can be extended to include any sort of fannish-art producer, whether zines, vids, art, or anything else.)

Fen, when they produce stuff, do not leave themselves at the door. A writer, no matter how good she is, is a person; she isn't just A Writer, without feelings or thoughts or emotions. Writers have bad days, and good days, and emergencies with their kids, and candlelit dinners with their husbands, and car problems, and their leftovers go moldy just like everyone else. They're people. And, when they share stuff, they do so because they love their show, and they love the people around them, and for other reasons that are more personal. Sometimes they DON'T want to share, even--I've written fic for friends that I adamantly do not want public; I enjoyed writing them, but they were private and personal. But that doesn't mean that, once shared, writers forfeit all right over their stories, that their stories now belong to The Void. Writers aren't machines, and creativity doesn't go away just because it's now an internet file.

To be a "true fan" is to love your fandom. Period. Being a "true fan" has nothing to do with whether you are willing to grant blanket permission for every yahoo (not that you are, but some people in fandom are pretty looney-tunes) who wants to post stuff indiscriminately to do so. Personally, I post pretty freely--no passwords, very few "private" stories just between friends, on both my LJ and my website. And I would gut and skin anyone who showed my fanfic to the people who are my source-material. Ditto to people who stole my stories and posted them on their own website as unattributed or wrongly attributed. Being a "true fan" does not mean that you have to give up all claim to what you have worked so long and hard to create.

You mentioned a note on your site that all your files are public domain. I really don't think fan creations are public domain. Someone MADE that vid, spent hours or days or weeks working on it, fussed about the transition in 3:45, worried because they couldn't find the exact right footage for X lyric, or had three perfect shots for Y. Just because you don't know who it was, doesn't mean they don't exist.

The files may be on loan, but they are ultimately the property of their creator, unless they have been formally transferred over in some way (if someone gives away an icon, for instance). If someone

ELKETANZER

Saturday, April 19, 2003 6:57 PM

Thank you for posting, ShineTheWay. It sounded eloquent to me.

Elke

MANIACNUMBERONE

Saturday, April 19, 2003 7:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bonibaru:
Quote:
Originally posted by ManiacNumberOne:
Reason one is they are not true fans. I don't believe that though, or they probably wouldn't have made them, huh? Second possible reason is that they possibly have something going on the side (with which they make money), on their website, and those free video's bring in needed traffic. If that were the reason, I would fully understand. Third possible reason they might not want me to mirror those video's on another site, (and this one's the worst of all) they didn't actually make them, and don't want to get caught saying they did on multiple websites--cause I would surely reference them as the video's source. Fourth reason, they are greedy with the video's they made and with the access rights to them. They want to get credit instead of sharing the joy of Firefly fandom with others. If that were the reason, I would say they are not true fans.

None of those reasons, at least for me.

First: It takes several weeks to make a music video - it's a long and -painstaking process. You don't throw one together in a few hours (not and have it be any good). So no person who is not a true fan is going to bother to take that time.

Second: making money off of a music video is vastly illegal and can land you not only with a C&D order, but under arrest and in jail. Any vidder that's making a profit off their videos is in deep deep trouble.

Third: Hey, this happens, but so far not frequently. And I can vouch for the fact that I made my vids, I have the dark circles under my eyes to prove it :)

Fourth: It's just common courtesy to ask first. Like your parents taught you: don't hit, share your toys, ask people before you do something with their stuff :) Just good netiquette.

I've found the majority of FF fans to be great people, kind, respectful. I'm pleased to see that at least you responded by trying to find the contact info to get in touch with the vidders. That's a refreshing change from that "other thread".

Thanks for reading the whole thread Try inserting this at the beginning like I did, and then leave me alone. "There could be a few possible reasons. Note: I don't subscribe to any of these beliefs - they are just possibilities."

MANIACNUMBERONE

Saturday, April 19, 2003 7:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bonibaru:
Quote:

Granted, Nia can't come after you in any legal sense since she infringed on copyrights but I'm sure she would like at least credit for putting them together. The interviews though, that's a little stickier and fox probably won't like an open link to their copyrighted material.

Ah - but anyone can go to your ISP and tell them that you have a music video on your site, and the ISP will take it down. Nia doesn't have to be the one to do it. They can also then cancel your *entire* site, for violation of TOS agreement, and they don't have to refund your fees or anything like that. In other words, you're up the creek, no paddle.

And you're right about the Interviews. I can even give a specific example: a Witchblade fan site had copies of cast interviews up on their website, that were taken from the official network site. Her ISP received a C&D letter from the TNT lawyers and her entire site was removed because of those interviews.

THOSE are official files that belong to Fox. Fox is notorious for shutting down fan sites - just ask anyone from Buffy, X-Files fandoms that had experience with Fox back when those shows were popular. Check here: http://www.bringers.org.uk/ for lots more info.

Dozens of X-Files and Buffy sites have been pursued and shut down by Fox for not just videos, but fanfiction, wallpapers and graphics, screencaps, quotes, etc. They *have* to shut your site down if it comes to your attention. According to copyright law, if they don't defend their copyright, they lose the right to claim it. They're pretty good about not going out and looking for fan sites, but that doesn't mean they can ignore it if it's directly shown to them.

As to this Succatash could have gone to Nia's site and done the same thing to her. You are being pretty hypocritical here, people. Step back and take a look at your own thievery before you accuse others.

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