The Talk.
POSTED BY: Wulfenstar
UPDATED: Friday, April 13, 2012 00:04
VIEWED: 8856
PAGE 6 of 12
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I'm not taking sides. I don't think that the people who gang up on Wulf on the same level of insults as kaneman, of course not, and saying that someone should die is awful. But that doesn't mean the constant bashing that does go on doesn't grind a person down and isn't hard to watch in its own way. Saying someone shouldn't breed is pretty bad too.
In any case, you are STILL going after me and attacking my credibility? Saying that I agree with Wulf's opinion about race and this article he posted? Tossing Riona in with that?
I apologized to you god damn so many times, you never apologized to me ONCE, you pulled someone unrelated into this fight just because they're my friend, and I've even tried to leave a few times so I could leave you alone and vice versa but my willpower has not been strong enough.
Are you ever going to give me a break, or am I your enemy, always and forever? Because you seem to keep going after me and Riona. I'd like to be as little passive aggressive as possible for once here, and get this out in the open and clear the air once and for all. Because I don't know what is going on, if you're doing this intentionally, or what.
If you don't want to be nice to me, then don't. Simple as that.
Well said.
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Hi Niki, I agree that what Wulf said to you was horrible and disgusting. The only time I blatently defended him was when I said he shouldn't be called a coward anymore, doing the work he's doing, since it isn't coward's work. Other than that I tend to not say much about what he posts because a lot of it is pretty whackadoodle like this creepy article. I did try and give him real advice about his new little one because he really asked and it was the advice I would imagine everyone would give someone who is going to have a child.
I try, don't always succede, to take each thread on its own merrit. I'll trashtalk someone in one thread and be nice to them in another because I try to seperate things out, again I don't always succede, especially if I'm mad at someone, which occasionally happens but I try. Which is why I can tell Wulf he's a mean rutter in one thread and talk nice to him in the next, especially if the topics are unrelated.
But again what he said to you was atrocious and he's being a mean rutter again.
You and I don't always get along, the march blowout effected you and I in regard to each other, but I usually like you and I perceive us as being friends and getting along good.
The thing I learnt recently is that just because I think someone is my friend doesn't mean they actually are. I start assuming well of people and then that opinion is only altered when they do something to indicate that I'm not _their friend. I added that line to my subject line because I realized that many people don't view their fellow humans in that way, so I want people to know where I'm coming from so they don't wonder why I assume sociability between me and others automatically exists.
I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.
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My gawd, Byte, where did THAT come from???Quote:
WHERE did I EVER say, or even hint, that you AGREED with Wulf'so pinion about race and the article??? Please check, but I never did, and I never thought it for a second! I made a remark because I have noted both you and Riona being extra nice to Wulf and occasionally remarking that the rest of us are mean to him. That was my point; nothing more, nothing less.
In any case, you are STILL going after me and attacking my credibility? Saying that I agree with Wulf's opinion about race and this article he posted? Tossing Riona in with that?
I didn't "toss" Riona into anything, it was actually she who first came down on others for their feelings toward him and, as a newcomer, we assumed she would learn for herself where those feelings came from. This particularly hideous post of Wulf's to me reminded me of her remarks back then and I pointed it out. If anything, this was more TO Riona than to you, who have been here long enough to understand people's feelings about Wulf and where they come from. So YOU were kind of ancillary to my comment, not Riona...and I don't care who is WHOSE friend, I talk to people here as if they are individuals most of the time. Your accusations are way off base.
I wasn't aware you'd apologized to me "god damn so many times"; I saw an apology, and it was more about a misuderstanding, if I recall correctly, than you actually doing anything to me which deserved an apology. But I'm unaware of what I might have done that required an apology to you; if you would enlighten me, that would help.
I'm also not aware I have attecked your credibility; please see above with regard to my ONE COMMENT. If I "seem" to keep going after you and Riona, I suggest it might be your perception more than reality, because I DISAGREE with different people here more than I do with others, but I'm not aware I've ever "gone after" you or Riona. I recall at one point that I got impatient and wrote to you directly that I get the impression of a certain amount of passive-aggressiveness from both of you, but I've never mentioned it since and I don't see it all that often, it just seemed to be the case back then. I see you haven't forgotten that, but if possible, could you give it a little less weight? You aren't usually passive-aggressive, just for a bit of time there--maybe a week or two?--you and Riona both seemed that way to ME. I think Kiki or someone originally said it, and I chimed in. But that was then, and, as I said, I've not noticed it since.
I'm afraid you'd have to give me specific examples so I can understand where you're coming from, because I don't get the reason for this aggressive post. Is something else going on with you, or have you become hypersensitive to me? That's not intended as a snark, I know sometimes you have different feelings from time to time, and I honestly am rather shocked by your response. I know we are of different personality types and we grate on one another sometimes, but I've never seen you as my "enemy" in any way, shape or form, just someone I occasionally disagree with. Sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I don't; I speak as honestly as I can at all times.
Okay, as for what I wrote, my one comment directed toward you and Riona. I was rather shocked to read Wulf's ugly attack on me, and it definitely was an ATTACK, not something I imagined. It angered me for a few minutes, and when I responded to it, across my mind drifted "Wow, I wonder if Riona and Byte have read this and if it changed their mind about defending Wulf?" and I wrote what I did. It was a throaway line at most, and I was still angry at what I'd read. That passed quickly, it's not important enough to hold onto, end of story. I'm sad it affected you so strongly, and I wish we could work it out.
Oh,
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There are times that I forget how awesome you all are. I'm not perfect. I get mad, I get frustrated, I lash out. I have issues, which I probably talk about so much that it bothers the bejesus out of people. Sometimes, I'm a super bitch, and I say stupid things that are hurtful. And I hurt Niki. I admit it. It doesn't matter if what I said wasn't serious, it hurt her. I can't blame her for not liking me or trusting me from here on out, because if the roles were reversed, who could say for sure if I wouldn't have done the same.
When I said I was sorry before, I really did mean it at the time. And I'm already starting to feel sorry about snapping at Niki again. I'm a little hot-headed. And Ive been snapping at her a lot, because I've felt a little persecuted. Feeling like Riona has been persecuted along with me, in part or wholly because of me, that's going to just exacerbate the problem. it's probably not even true, and it's my paranoia playing tricks on me. I haven't been sure, I've been dancing around the issue, which is why I've tried to give Niki space.
People are going to hate each other sometimes. That's the way the world is. People are going to hate ME. Wulf is gonna hate, AURaptor is gonna hate, people are gonna hate on them because of it. Some of that hate isn't fair or rational. It's important to call it out, it's important to disagree where disagreement is warranted. At the same time, we can't really make someone not hate, we can't change what their experiences were, what caused the hate, no matter how long we try to do it, and I don't really think it's fair to hate someone for being unable to change. We all have to live with the harsh side of human nature. What society is, what a community is, is how we choose to deal with that. We don't have to accept it or tolerate it or agree with it, but we can live and let live. We can see persons, and not just the hate.
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Thank you Riona. I appreciate the clarification. And it helps me understand some things better.Quote:
I'm the same, except I know that, after several years here, I am definitely prejudiced against some who have made it very clear they dislike me rather intensely--I've noticed I've made mistakes in misunderstanding what they have written from time to time out of that prejudice, so I, too, TRY to keep that from happening.
I try, don't always succede, to take each thread on its own merrit. I'll trashtalk someone in one thread and be nice to them in another because I try to seperate things out, again I don't always succede, especially if I'm mad at someone, which occasionally happens but I try. Which is why I can tell Wulf he's a mean rutter in one thread and talk nice to him in the next, especially if the topics are unrelated.
Hee, hee, hee:Quote:
That's precisely what I go by. I long ago decided there are only two ways to do it. Either I start out thinking everyone is okay until proven otherwise--which means that there will always be times I am nice to someone and look like a fool afterward or (offline) get hurt by someone--OR else I stay guarded in my interactions with everyone, which deprives me of all the GOOD things I would experience from good people. I prefer the former, and don't give a shit whether I look like a fool. I have forgiven some people for some truly awful things they have done to me and/or said to me or about me; it has solidified my belief in that I chose the right way to proceed. In some cases, we have gone on to work things out and have a treasured friendship; in others I've been "taken" more--but not MUCH more, I do learn eventually ;o)
I start assuming well of people and then that opinion is only altered when they do something to indicate that I'm not _their friend
So we have a lot in common; I hope you understand from what I explained to Byte that I was in no way attacking or going after you and her and why I made the comment I did. It was not intended to offend. I'm not sure why it angered Byte so much, but I hope we can work it out.
When it comes to misunderstanding someone was you friend...Mike? Really?!?! You agree with Byte and think the same of me?! Wow. That's a bolt out of the blue!
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Quote:
When it comes to misunderstanding someone was you friend...Mike? Really?!?! You agree with Byte and think the same of me?! Wow. That's a bolt out of the blue!
I'm glad she brought it up, since there definitely does seem to be a bone of contention between the two of you, and getting it out in the open and hashed out is the best way to fix it.
Do I "agree with Byte"? Do I think the same of you? I don't know. I think she's got a valid concern, and I can see why she feels that way when you basically accuse her and Riona of "championing" Wulfie. That's a curious word choice if you weren't trying to be confrontational towards them.
Hell, I'll defend Wulfie's right to say some insanely stupid shit, but that hardly means I'm in any way agreeing with him or "championing" him; it means I agree with the rights of free speech, not with what's said under its umbrella.
I'd love to see you and Byte and Riona get all this crap sorted out, and I think Byte's direct approach offers a great chance at doing that. I think all three of y'all are the bee's knees, the wasp's waist, and more, and I think you actually agree on about 90% of stuff, but all of you keep getting hung up on the same 10%, and it's becoming a wedge.
Y'all can figure it out, make it right, move forward, or decide to just agree to disagree. Not everybody has to be friends here, but if you can't be, that should probably be made clear, too. There are people here I can pretty confidently say I'll never be friends with, and that's okay. You don't have to get along, but you should at least figure out where you stand in regards to each other. I'm not taking "sides"; I said that what Byte said was well said, because I appreciated her forthrightness in trying to clear the air. It doesn't mean I think less of Niki, or that I'm having any "favorites"; just that I thought she brought up a valid point of discussion that should be addressed.
"I have no real clue of what you're speaking." - AuRaptor.
"Yes. I was wrong. I am sorry." - AuRaptor.
Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Reference thread: http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51196
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Hi Niki, no your comment to Byte and I didn't upset me.
"Everything works out in the end. If its not allright then its not the end."
I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.
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Byte: Wow, that's as shocking as the first one! In a good way, mind you, I've just had my head spun about several times in four or five posts!
Honey, you didn't hurt me. NOBODY on line can ever "hurt" me. You shocked me, mostly because it was such an angry post (and no, I didn't see it as an "attack") in response to one mild comment. But we've been there before, so I've come to believe that occasionally you misunderstand something I write, can be a bit oversensitive to things I write and/or take personally things I never meant personally. Also I know I can be "sharp" (if you will) and not phrase myself as clearly as I would like. It doesn't bother me; if we can't accept others', we can't accept ourselves, and vice versa, and believe me, I KNOW a lot of my own "personality quirks" if you will. I also know I don't know them all, I just keep working at it and, in the meantime, accept myself. I don't actually DISLIKE anyone here NOW, some piss me off, but I've come to accept that. Some I have to work things out with from time to time, and I appreciate it when that can happen. It's the mark of someone I respect that they try to work things out with me, and it gives us another chance.
PLEASE don't feel bad about snapping at me; as far as I'm concerned we're working it out and understand one another better, so that makes it in the past. There's no reason for me not to like you, and as I've said before, I don't TRUST anyone on the internet, I never know who anyone is. As I wrote to Riona, I've long since made my decision as to how to take people, but that doesn't mean I trust anyone. But I certainly don't mistrust you any more than anyone else here.
I don't know if by "giving space" means you've been not responding to me or something else, but I'd be most grateful if you wouldn't, and would just say what you mean when you feel it. It gives us the CHANCE to work things out, and if we don't, stuff builds up, which isn't healthy for anyone. I think, after cogitating on it a bit, that there might have been some unconscious RESENTMENT toward you and Riona for your defense of Wulf, in fact seeing it in print, I'm pretty sure of it. The stuff Wulf writes grates on me--he says I make his hackles rise. It's as much the WAY he says thing as what he says, it comes across as terribly condescending and "holier than thou" which, given the CONTENT of what he says, is really absurd. Not sure why that pisses me off. Raptor says many of the same things, but it doesn't "feel" as offensive--which may not make sense to anyone, and if anyone can help me understand why, I'd appreciate it.
Ach, I don't want to get into self-psychoanalysis right here on the board, I'm kind of thinking as I'm writing. Suffice it to say that, while it wasn't MEANLY meant, at all, some of my frustration and anger at the ugliness of Wulf's post to me seeped through in that comment to you and Riona. My apologies.
One last thing then I'll quit. With regard to Wulf,Quote:
As I said, I don't "hate" anyone here. But neither do I accept that anyone here has the right to abuse me because of who they are or what they've suffered. It's upon each of us to decide how we want to relate to one another, and we are RESPONSIBLE for that. If we started deciding who has the right to be vicious to whom and who should be told off for doing so, we'd end up with gradients of how vicious one person has the right to be to another, etc., which is insane. When someone throws all decency out the window, they don't deserve anyone's sympathy. We all snark at one another, but there are limits as far as I'm concerned, to what should be accepted. That'
I don't really think it's fir to hate someone for being unable to change.
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Quote:
WHERE did I EVER say, or even hint, that you AGREED with Wulf'so pinion about race and the article?
Championing for Wulf is what you said. There's been a few other people who posted before me who felt the need to clarify that neither riona or I had agreed, so in the very least you were a little unclear.
Quote:
This particularly hideous post of Wulf's to me reminded me of her remarks back then and I pointed it out.
And neither of us agreed with it. That does NOT necessarily change whether or not a lot of attacks are exchanged from both sides, or give me any particular inclination to join in.
You are calling out me and Riona a LOT, and I was asking why. And it's not just in this thread about Wulf. Perhaps you're unaware of it, perhaps it's just my perception. I don't know. I'm just putting this out there.
Quote:
or have you become hypersensitive to me?
Possibly this. At the same time, it's hard for me not to think that I don't bother you. It just, it seems like I do. Maybe you don't give a damn about me, I guess that's all right. It's just the internet, after all, you have that option, and I'm not a real person to you or anyone else here anyway.
Quote:
you cut him more slack in his attitude toward us, with which I DEFINITELY do not agree.
The die Niki die post was bad. No argument there.
I cut him slack about his feelings about race, because I can't change it, and because he's entitled to his opinion even if I don't agree. He's even entitled to say awful things about race on a message board. I don't think it has any particular bearing on Wulf as a father, and I also think this little girl has a mother who probably doesn't agree with Wulf on everything either.
Perhaps what wulf says about race can't be divorced from how people think about him as a person, and therefore cutting him slack on this aspect makes it seem as though I agree with him about race, or that I am against the rest of you and support his attitude towards you. I'm not, I don't, any more than I think all the stuff that gets said to Wulf is one hundred percent okay. I just don't really bother talking about race issues with him. It seems like the central aspect of his personality because he brings it up a lot, and maybe that is just to get a rise out of people, because Wulf loves to fight. But when I look at Wulf I don't think of him as "race issues guy," and so I have other conversations with him.
Quote:
Everyone is responsible for themselves, nobody should get any special treatment because of their past or anything else.
True... But I'm not sure that we can completely ignore a person's past. I think recognizing people's experiences is an important part of recognizing who they are and what they think. It would be wrong to tell a rape victim who could not trust men any more that they ought to just get over themselves, no matter how inappropriate their stereotyping an entire group is. The same is true with mental illness, I wouldn't attack someone or dismiss their opinions because they see things sideways, though I might still disagree.
Perhaps I pull punches, and perhaps I side with Riona sometimes because she's my friend and I overlook things I don't agree with her about. I like to think I do the same for most everyone, perhaps I've been less fair to you and others about that recently. I don't think this is disrespect, or thinking that a person can't compete on the same level, but rather I think that everyone has gaps in their armor and to hit them there hurts and that shouldn't be part of a conversation. I give people special treatment and put some things off limits, because I like them, and I'd hope they'd extend me the same courtesy.
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And now, back to this:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I don't think anyone here blames Wulf "for what happened to him". But neither do we believe he should be apportioned special treatment and special rights to be vicious to others because of it.
I don't blame Wulfie for what happened to him. I blame him for how he deals with it, what he does with it, and how he chooses to use it or move forward in his life. What happened to him was the fault of others beyond his control; what he does with it is completely up to him.
All of us have baggage. Some of us have decided to enjoy the trip.
"I have no real clue of what you're speaking." - AuRaptor.
"Yes. I was wrong. I am sorry." - AuRaptor.
Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Reference thread: http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51196
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