How to win an argument with Liberals-Progressives-Socialists-etc...
POSTED BY: Wulfenstar
UPDATED: Thursday, June 16, 2011 09:23
VIEWED: 32999
PAGE 8 of 31
Quote:
Originally posted by dmaanlileiltt:
You know after reading this topic I'm starting to see why America is falling apart at the seams. You're all as bad as each other.
"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"
Is this how YOU construct a coherent argument?
Or aren't you just saying, in effect, "No, YOU!"?
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Dmaanlileiltt, there always must be at least one active thread that is a flame war on the board. This way, the natural tribal tendencies that have been embraced can be expressed.
Theoretically it would free the participants in the flame war to have non-flame war conversations in other threads. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't and a board member may require more threads then are available to express the necessary tribalism.
In any case, all you can do is let it run it's course. Making comparisons between the United States and your country will usually only end up in yourself being pulled into an argument you probably don't want to have, unless you're intentionally trying to stir up the flame war or get both sides attacking you. What's more, any contrasts or superiority you can claim for your country is probably inaccurate - I do not know a single country on this Earth that doesn't have a political climate with competing ideologies.
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Well spoken.
Byte, I was not saying that there are no differing opinions in other countries, but perhaps there is less respect for it in the US. I dislike "tribalism" and the way it encourages people to dismiss ideas based on the perceptions of those that came before rather than actually putting any of their own thoughts into it.
And I was not making comparisons between my country and the US (mine's just as bad), but I was making an observation that it seems like the US never had the type of perhaps begrudging respect for people on opposing sides that are still smart and, basically, good people. Perhaps "tribalism" is more entrenched in US culture as it seems impossible for people who are Republican and people who are Democrat to reconcile their differences.
At least based on what I've seen here.
"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
The thing you are missing when you deride me for equating all of the leftist isms into one massive clusterfuck of wrong thinking, is this; all of them have one flawed premise at their core. That mistaken point of origin is that someone else is better suited to decide what is best for me.
And that is why I will go to any lengths to oppose them and any person who try to force those ridiculous politics on me.
So quite clearly, you agree with me that we should never have gone into Iraq in 2003.
[\b][\quote]
Should we have gone to war in Afghanistan yes. Iraq, no. Iraq could have been titled; "Operation Clean Up After Daddy."Quote:Quote:
The cold war may have ended, but those same leftists forces now have new names. Transnationists, humanists, and liberals. I can't imagine that the founders of the democratic party are spinning in their grave over the co-opting of their party by socialists.
So you now consider Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove, and the entire GOP to be "leftists", eh?
Or are you such a hypocrite that you don't want someone else deciding FOR YOU, but you like the idea of your government deciding FOR OTHER NATIONS what is best for them?
Seems all you John Birch morons should be throwing a bitch-fit about your ideals being co-opted by socialists, too. The teabaggers are just another brand of socialist as well.
Well, the Bush administration sure as hell weren't conservatives. Remember, dissatisfaction with the established order of the GOP is what spawned the Tea Party, not the existing gripes with the leftists.
Of course 0bama is doing that same deciding for other nations that Bush and Co. did. Recently telling Israel to pull back to their 1967 borders.
But as I've said before, democrat, republican, just the north and south face of shit mountain.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Well said, Magons. Sadly, however,Quote:isn't unknown here, either. There's a law proposed (may have been passed by now, dunno) to change the child work laws so that younger kids can work, and to lower the "minimum wage" where young workers are concerned. Republicans, of course, helping us go backward to the days of no constraings on enterprise.
who pollute, pay their workers virtually nothing, exploit children, have dangerous and or unhealthy work practices, undermine local businesses
Lots of corporations pollute, either legally, with special dispensations, or illegally until someone notices (then they pay the "fine" and go right on in some cases...hi PG&E). BP is a prime example of "dangerous/unhealthy work practices (tho' there are many others), and we've got signs all over San Rafael reading "No Target in San Rafael"--they want to put one up, which would be disasterous for all the small businesses in town (currently we have no "big-box stores" like Walmart, etc., although there are a bunch of them just ten miles up the road!).
So unethical pays HERE, too, but it's SOOO much cheaper overseas, and they don't have to worry about American laws. If the Republicans have their way, we won't be much better.
Once you wake up to the fact that cheap products are not worth the money, that changes. I believe in durable goods. I'm willing to vote with my wallet. I don't buy the shoddy junk that places like Harbor Freight sell. I'll save and do without until I can buy a quality product that will probably outlast me. I'm also willing to buy something second hand. I'd rather not pay $5 for a product built with no regard for longevity, 20 times. I'd rather scrimp and save to buy a well built $100 product once.
If that makes me an exception, then so be it. I believe this massive consumerism will be recognized as one of the causes of the downfall of western civilization.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Well, the Bush administration sure as hell weren't conservatives. Remember, dissatisfaction with the established order of the GOP is what spawned the Tea Party, not the existing gripes with the leftists.
But as I've said before, democrat, republican, just the north and south face of shit mountain.
Soooo... You despise all "leftists" because we're all a bunch of "socialists", which you cannot abide at all, because you hate socialism with a burning passion.
You consider all Democrats "leftists", and therefore "socialists".
You consider the GOP to be the same, just a bit different face.
You claim that the tea party grew out of the GOP, whom you've just claimed are a bunch of "leftists".
So EVERYONE in the U.S. political landscape is a "leftist", then?
Who do YOU support? Who did you vote for in the last couple election cycles? The leftists, or the leftists?
Quote:
Of course 0bama is doing that same deciding for other nations that Bush and Co. did. Recently telling Israel to pull back to their 1967 borders.
Yes, because suggesting a starting point for negotiations to a country (that we give billions of dollars in foreign aid to) is EXACTLY the same as invading them with an army of 150,000. I totally get that. ;)
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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To be fair to Hardware, it sounds like his heart is in the right place. In my opinion it doesn't matter if you think both parties are more right-wing than you like or both parties are more left-wing, but rather that you dislike them both equally.
We can argue to death over what each party is, and those arguments would be influenced by tribalism - frankly, they're probably centrist to right wing, simply because underneath the stated positions and fluff they accept a lot of bribes from corporate special interests (because corporate America has money, y'see). But so long as we're all opposed to both of them because they're too authoritarian and imperialist, then I figure that doesn't really make us enemies.
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But disliking them EQUALLY would equate to voting equally as well.
HW, do you vote for more Republicans than Democrats? Do you refuse to ever vote for either? Do you vote for them in equal numbers?
I mean, given that they're all socialists, and you've claimed that you can just never abide socialism in any degree, then how on Earth COULD you vote for any of them?
Did you vote for George W. Bush, ever?
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Quote:
For the majority of people, I don't think that's true. You're right, I think you're in the minority. If so, so am I. My husband will buy the cheapest thing available, because (much like me) he doesn't believe there IS such a thing as products that last. We're pretty convinced this has become such a "planned obsolescence" culture that nothing is made with the intent to last. However, unlike him I look at what's available, try to compare, and usually end up buying somewhere in the mid-range price. I don't think price necessarily determines quality.
Once you wake up to the fact that cheap products are not worth the money, that changes.
But I don't think that's true for most people, especially not in this economy. We're also a very short-sighted culture, one of "I want it NOW", and people buy according to that mentality. I definitely agree that our form of consumerism has contributed to the weakening of our culture, but I don't think it's the main contributor.
I believe there was a time, by the way, when parties WERE less vitriolic--or more respectful if you will--of each other. It's come and gone over time, but in my lifetime, it's never been THIS bad. I wish it would stop swinging so far in either direction and get closer to the middle, but I'm not counting on it. For one thing, I've never seen any President treated with such complete disrespect as I see Obama. Maybe it's the Black thing, I don't know, but I hear things about him from people in power that I never heard about Bush, Clinton, or anyone before them. "People in power" is the opperant term; the general public have always had assholes, but nowadays elected officials have no problem speaking of him in terms I've never heard before. JMHO.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off 
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Quote:
"I believe there was a time, by the way, when parties WERE less vitriolic--or more respectful if you will--of each other. It's come and gone over time, but in my lifetime, it's never been THIS bad. I wish it would stop swinging so far in either direction and get closer to the middle, but I'm not counting on it. For one thing, I've never seen any President treated with such complete disrespect as I see Obama. Maybe it's the Black thing, I don't know, but I hear things about him from people in power that I never heard about Bush, Clinton, or anyone before them. "People in power" is the opperant term; the general public have always had assholes, but nowadays elected officials have no problem speaking of him in terms I've never heard before. JMHO. "
Tanslation:
If you don't like Obama you are...wait for it...
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
RACIST!
When your back is to a wall and you have nothing left...
or when their "ideas" are exposed to reality...
whats a lib to do but yell
"racist"!
or "anti-semetic"!
or "homophobe"!
Give it UP already!
"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"
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