Arizona Rep. Giffords shot, several wounded

POSTED BY: TheHappyTrader
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 24, 2024 14:52
VIEWED: 31462
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement

They are most definitely not liberals or socialists, and their overlap with Christian, militia, and other right-wing political fringes puts them in that category.

As for your posts I see you have absolutely nothing to back up your claims, so I have a far harder time taking you seriously than I take, say WIKI. But whatever floats your boat. Also your angry hostile attitude doesn't match what you think you are.

ETA: So I read all of your posts. You seem to take major offense at anyone even associating Loughner's delusions with the right-wing fringes, and to any 'liberal' who steps over your line of what you consider acceptable or who makes an argument you disagree with, because you take it upon yourself to get into flame wars with those posters. OTOH you NEVER get into it with any of the more threatening, offensive , delusional and/ or snarky right-wingers. You also seem very defensive about gun rights. I suspect you may be far more partisan than you think you are b/c you seem to identify very heavily with the right wing and think of 'liberals' as the 'other'.

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They are most definitely not liberals or socialists, and their overlap with Christian, militia, and other right-wing political fringes puts them in that category.

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This is an opinion. Are you claiming if they not liberal so they must be conservative? When all you have is a hammer everything tends too look like a conservative, er... I mean a nail. Also, you're wiki reference does not refer to them as right wing either.

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As for your posts I see you have absolutely nothing to back up your claims, so I have a far harder time taking you seriously than I take, say WIKI. But whatever floats your boat.

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First off, I'm not claiming anything, as much as challenging your conclusions, so there's not as much to 'back up.' I'm calling you and everyone else who wants to blame the 'right' out on what I see as irrational knee-jerk blame gaming. I'm actually backing my argument up with your own sources. I watched Loughner's youtube videos as you suggested and commented on what I saw, finding no political rhetoric of any kind. The real evidence we have is his mental illness and a personal history with Giffords.

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Also your angry hostile attitude doesn't match what you think you are.

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Well... I could nit pick on what you think you know about who I am and what I think of that, but I think you're right in that I am sounding more hostile and arrogant than I'd prefer. Insulting you was unnecessary and I apologize for offending you. I don't mean to be hostile as much as critical. I've found myself returning to RWED often when I'm in between tasks or when feeling restless. Perhaps that's RWED's corrupting influence, but I'll take responsibility for my actions.

Anyway, if you'd like to point at specific phrases that lead you to believe the right has influenced this, I'll be glad to debate them, but what I'm seeing is a blanket statement that doesn't appear related to the data you're supplying. Maybe you could help me see that? Or not, and just insult me, claim I've got nothin' and tell me to do my own gorram research, whatever floats your boat

I've done my 'research' I'm just trying to figure out what makes you think the way you do. I've read what you've supplied and your conclusions still don't make any sense to me. You're under no obligation to respond, I was just curious is all. I guess I felt a little insulted myself when you suggest violent extremists were influenced by Christians and Conservatives, despite the fact that I don't identify with the 'mainstreams' of either of those.

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ETA: So I read all of your posts. You seem to take major offense at anyone even associating Loughner's delusions with the right-wing fringes, and to any 'liberal' who steps over your line of what you consider acceptable or who makes an argument you disagree with, because you take it upon yourself to get into flame wars with those posters. OTOH you NEVER get into it with any of the more threatening, offensive , delusional and/ or snarky right-wingers.

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You also seem very defensive about gun rights. I suspect you may be far more partisan than you think you are b/c you seem to identify very heavily with the right wing and think of 'liberals' as the 'other'.

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I must admit, in general I hold the 'liberal' posters to higher standards cause I've kinda given up on most of the righties. I do typically ignore the threatening offensive righties. Some of the 'liberal' posters will argue back intelligently and in the process I might even learn more about the issue, maybe even adjust my stance.

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You also seem very defensive about gun rights. I suspect you may be far more partisan than you think you are b/c you seem to identify very heavily with the right wing and think of 'liberals' as the 'other'.

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I gotta disagree with ya here though. I'm using 'liberal' here only because you are and it's convenient. I'm not assuming that niki, kwicko, frem, magons, or yourself are the same. For some of the 'liberal' posters I 'spect that label doesn't mean a damn thing. Maybe I am more partisan than I think, I'll have to think on that more, but I do want to make it clear that I don't intend to lump any group of people, ideological, political, religical or otherwise into stereotypes outside of blatantly snarky humor.

EDIT: Concerning guns, I don't care for them personally. I just dislike the idea of limiting freedoms or blaming guns for our problems.

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Not a whole lot of time, so I'm prolly going to re-state what someone already said. Paranoid schizos don't make up their delusions whole-cloth. They get their script from OTHER people with the farthest-out-there, well publicized delusions... delusions which fit a paranoid schizo's need to be super-paranoid. The current schizophrenic delusion focuses on "gubmint", "Jews" and the "new world order". That is why Loughner didn't focus on the Forbes 400, or the Catholic Church, or Russian spies, or animal experimenters

If a radical left-wing group had been pushing for someone to "take out" the Forbes 400, or to get an Uzi and "clean house" at Goldman Sachs, and Louhgner had systematically started on that plan, I'm sure the right-wing would be blaming the left wing for his actions. And while the left would be distancing themselves from the radical and violence-inciting among themselves, the blame would be justified.

So, it was the far right wing that gave form and shape to Loughner's delusions, and the right wing which pushed and guided his impetus to violence.

It was also the right wing which yanked funding for mental health treatment, and the right wing which feels it is entirely appropriate for the violently insane to have guns. So to the extent that sane people are at fault for a crazy person killing people, it's the right wing.

Oh, and BTW... is everyone tired of/ embarrassed by Sarah Palin? After the initial flare of interest in her "blood libel" blooper, coverage and comment seems to have dried up. She's just a right-winger with a narcissistic personality disorder, kind like the trolls here on the board. IMHO

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Yeah, this is a bad thread for me, seems to have brought out the worst of me. I'ma try and do better and this will likely be my last post on this thread.

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If a radical left-wing group had been pushing for someone to "take out" the Forbes 400, or to get an Uzi and "clean house" at Goldman Sachs, and Louhgner had systematically started on that plan, I'm sure the right-wing would be blaming the left wing for his actions. And while the left would be distancing themselves from the radical and violence-inciting among themselves, the blame would be justified.

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I still don't believe the blame would be justified, not unless we had proof he was taking this rhetoric to heart. As is, we don't have proof he's even heard political rhetoric (though I do consider that unlikely).

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So, it was the far right wing that gave form and shape to Loughner's delusions, and the right wing which pushed and guided his impetus to violence.

It was also the right wing which yanked funding for mental health treatment, and the right wing which feels it is entirely appropriate for the violently insane to have guns. So to the extent that sane people are at fault for a crazy person killing people, it's the right wing.

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I respectfully disagree and find everything (save the yanked mental health funding) ridiculous. That's a pretty extreme stretch. I can only hope that this tragedy will bring more attention to our treatment of the mentally ill and less to blaming and punishing the party we don't agree with.

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what what did schizophrenics claim? Demons? Temptations? Spiritual torments?

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Exactly those, throughout history. Since WWII, lots have endured delusions of Nazis and Commies, too.

For bipolars, it’s more grandiosity and delusions of being an angel, God, messiah, something like that. I’ve known quite a few, a couple of who came to our support group convinced they were one of the above and could “cure” us all...it was sad and in one case kind of scary.

I don’t think it’s what they “claim”, that’s the wrong word for me. I think it’s what they BELIEVE...and battle to keep in touch with reality if they can. Remember “A Beautiful Mind”? That one pegged it PERFECTLY, when it comes to schizs. I’ve always felt sorrier for them than any other mental disorder...except borderline. It made me glad I’m “only” Bipolar, just as seeing what Bipolar Is go through made me glad I was Bipolar II. I got off damned lucky!

Sig, schizs don’t necessarily get their ideas from outside sources, trust me. Like all of us, they have good imaginations, only for them the difference between imagination and reality gets blurred. Same for manic Bipolars in that way. Yes, sometimes they do, but sometimes it’s just something which happens or their disorder creating things with their imagination. In this case it looks like there was a lot of “grinding” on Giffords herself, possibly stemming from only one meeting with her. It can go from there, with no outside help at all.

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Was Loughner drawn to the extremist - and also right-wing - arm of US politics? OF COURSE HE WAS. There is no doubt.

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Kiki, I disagree. From what we’ve seen, he had attitudes from the left AND right...perhaps the right moreso, we don’t know---so far anyway. I tend to think it was more the kind of obsessiveness some with mental disabilities endure, fastening on something and what we call “grinding” on it until it’s about to burst forth.

There’s plenty of guilt for the state we’re in, Dems jumped on the virulent-rhetoric bandwagon pretty good, too. Just last night I heard some idiot trying to defend his saying the right’s “big lie” was akin to Goering’s...it’s all totally out of hand and Arizona won’t change anything. I fear this is going to be a pattern for a long time to come. Will be interesting to see if the rhetoric toward the President continues as horrible when a White President is next elected. That’s part of it, unquestionably.

But Loughner is a separate case; unless he talks, we’ll never know how much politics, right or left, had to do with it. I agree that

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under the influence some form of misguided and extremist anarchy

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is to me the more logical answer.

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When you make a habit of presenting partisan conjecture and wishful thinking as if it were irrefutable fact, it's hard to take you seriously.

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goes for both sides, and we see it quite clearly here.

I don’t see Happy the same way you do, Kiki; mostly I’ve found him (her?) to be reasonable---bent to the right somewhat, yes, but not nearly as snarky as others, and yes, “gunbunnies” as Frem calls them ALL tend to be pretty vociferous about their “second-amendment rights.” Show me anyone pro-gun who is mellow about it: I dare you! :biggin: Yes, I have noticed a somewhat more aggressive tone, but I chalk that up to RWE, as most people who’ve come since I got here start to go down that road eventually. I don’t blame RWE as much as I blame our trolls.

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in general I hold the 'liberal' posters to higher standards cause I've kinda given up on most of the righties

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Wow, that’s interesting. Me, too, and I realize it’s a failing. It bothers me more when Story or Mike or someone does nothing but snark childishly than it does when any one of the numerous others on the right do, and I think it’s for the same reason.

The one that gets me is that righties are quite happy to blame lefties so MUCH, while ignoring the language their own side has been using consistently for the past few years. If th

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