The Great Jayne Debate!
POSTED BY: kef
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 4, 2002 17:05
VIEWED: 37090
PAGE 8 of 14
Quote:Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a difference between hearing about someone’s condition and seeing it. And actually, there is no evidence to suggest that Jayne or anyone else on the crew knew anything about the specifics of River's condition prior to the Hospital scene.
Originally posted by kef:
It doesn't ring true to me. In your version the change in Jayne happens fairly suddenly. In my version it happens more slowly, more (I think) realistically and humanly.
Secondly, QueenTiye never suggested that Jayne changed, only that he is human.
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In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.
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Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
Absolutely true. But to him, this time it feels different.
Why?
Quote:
Jayne's seen the doctor save lives before. He watched him save Zoe in "Out Of Gas" for instance. Why would start feeling more respect now?
Because he's never seen Simon in a competitive arena. This is different because in an arena of DOCTORS, Simon outshone everyone. AND, he showed some backbone. Jayne doesn't like Simon not only because he's rich pampered guy, but because hes a namby-pamby rich pampered guy. The kind that bullies like Jayne LOVE to hate (and bully).
Quote:
Everyone on Serenity, including Jayne, has known all along that the Alliance had performed some pretty nasty medical experiments on River. Why would merely finding out what the specific medical proceedure was (which he probably doesn't even understand that well) affect Jayne SO MUCH that he suddenly decides right then and there to change everything?
Because it brings it home again the reality of what he's about to do. It's one thing to know a thing, and its another thing to put all the known facts together, and its a WHOLE OTHER THING to have all the known facts staring you in the face. Human beings are very good at compartmentalizing information - I'd expect that mercenaries are slightly better at it than most. But in this case, no compartmentalization allowed - all of the information was in Jayne's face.
Quote:
To throw away a HUGE reward? To get rid of someone who he's sure will be nothing but trouble for himself and Serenity?
I expect he'll find some other way to get rid of the Tams... but it won't be to give them to the alliance again...
Quote:
It doesn't ring true to me. In your version the change in Jayne happens fairly suddenly. In my version it happens more slowly, more (I think) realistically and humanly.
In my version NO change happens to Jayne. Jayne is Jayne, and the events of "Ariel" show us the side of him that allows us to appreciate him, even though we know he's this coarse, crude, and mercenary guy.
QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a difference between hearing about someone’s condition and seeing it. And actually, there is no evidence to suggest that Jayne or anyone else on the crew knew anything about the specifics of River's condition prior to the Hospital scene.
Secondly, QueenTiye never suggested that Jayne changed, only that he is human.
I've GOT to learn how to say things as succinctly as that!
QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006
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Quote:
Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
OT, I know, but...What did they do to Tyr?! Argh, I knew there was a reason I stopped watching Andromeda.
"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne
OT: It gets worse every episode.. ~SIGH~
QT
QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006
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I swear . . . you Jayne lovers, you're gonna be the death of me. 
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No Jayne lover here...Mal's the man for me!
BUT... I do believe that human beings are not flat two-dimensional creaturs, and I do believe that Joss Whedon makes whole series about depth of characters, and I do believe that Jayne has his plusses and his minuses, as we know him today.
QT
QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006
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Quote:So you're pretty much unbiased then?.
I don't personally believe any theory that has Jayne undergoing any growth. Not because it isn't plausible, but because I DON'T want it!!!
Quote:I've already explained that.Quote:Why?
Originally posted by kef:
Absolutely true. But to him, this time it feels different.
Quote:Okay, well perhaps this may be the crux of this whole thing - I truly didn't see that in Jayne's face. Please see my post to Thegn.Quote:Because it brings it home again the reality of what he's about to do. It's one thing to know a thing, and its another thing to put all the known facts together, and its a WHOLE OTHER THING to have all the known facts staring you in the face. Human beings are very good at compartmentalizing information - I'd expect that mercenaries are slightly better at it than most. But in this case, no compartmentalization allowed - all of the information was in Jayne's face.
Everyone on Serenity, including Jayne, has known all along that the Alliance had performed some pretty nasty medical experiments on River. Why would merely finding out what the specific medical proceedure was (which he probably doesn't even understand that well) affect Jayne SO MUCH that he suddenly decides right then and there to change everything?
Quote:This is pretty much the same way I see it. I think we're just misreading each other's meanings. What I meant by "change" for instance. (I apologise for sounding Clintonian!).
In my version NO change happens to Jayne. Jayne is Jayne, and the events of "Ariel" show us the side of him that allows us to appreciate him, even though we know he's this coarse, crude, and mercenary guy.
BUT... I do believe that human beings are not flat two-dimensional creaturs, and I do believe that Joss Whedon makes whole series about depth of characters, and I do believe that Jayne has his plusses and his minuses, as we know him today.
You say you don't WANT Jayne to undergo any growth, or at least not this quickly. Why? Because you think he'll "change"? (there's that word again) That he'll start acting differently?
I don't believe my theory is in any way suggesting that consequence. I think you're overinterpreting what I'm saying happened to Jayne.
If I understand you, you believe A) Jayne has a conscience, and that B) it caused him to change his mind in the diagnostic room.
A) is all I'm saying too, basically, even if it sounds like I'm making it into something bigger. I merely contend that B) happened at a different time and in a different way.
Again, please see my post to Thegn.
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Quote:As I just posted to QueenTiye, this is pretty much my view as well. I think we're just misreading each other's meanings.
Praise god almighty someone other then Delvo and I recognize that Jayne is more complex then just a stereotypical mercenary. He's a human being with human emotions and human weaknesses. One of those weaknesses is his own conscience. Maybe Jayne has done a lot of horrible things in his time, but he didn't do any of them without seeking some way of rationalizing them. Jayne is not robotic. He is not just another Dr. Zachary Smith in the old Lost in Space, existing for no other function then to play the protagonist. He is not a sociopath. He seeks out human justification for his actions, like we all do. He doesn't kill for the pleasure of killing. He never kills without something in his head convincing him that the world is a better place for his actions. He would never sell off members of his own crew, unless he could create a similar justification. And his discovery of the specifics of River's treatment by the Alliance must have heavily bruised whatever justification he was using to convince himself that what he was doing was right.
Quote:Again, I probably am not expressing myself correctly, in terms of what I mean by change.
Secondly, QueenTiye never suggested that Jayne changed, only that he is human.
Quote:Whoa, back off. I never said there wasn't.
Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a difference between hearing about someone’s condition and seeing it.
Quote:That's exactly what I said! They DIDN'T know the SPECIFICS. But they DID know SOMETHING nasty had been done to her.
And actually, there is no evidence to suggest that Jayne or anyone else on the crew knew anything about the specifics of River's condition prior to the Hospital scene.
But if I understand you and QueenTiye, you both are saying that Jayne looked at that medical scan, and what he saw on it affected him enough to bring out the conscience in him.
I'm just not seeing that. THIS seems to be the crux of where we disagree in this whole debate.
I don't see his conscience coming out at that point in the episode. I don't see it in his actions or reactions. Or in the circumstances, or in the sequence of events. I just don't see it, that's all.
We're just never going to agree on that point.
Just for the record - I'm not saying that you guys COULDN'T be right. It's ambiguous. The fact that other people in this thread also don't see what you do proves that. I believe my theory is close to Jose Molina's intention. But hell, I could easily have my head up my behind.
We're just never going to agree on this. (about the episode I mean, not me having my head up there.) Not that I ever thought we would. But getting to this point has been fun, hasn't it? And it's always educational to see something from someone else's perspective, isn't it? -
...
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I'm going to have to come down on the no-change-of-heart side. If he'd changed his mind, why lead them out the back instead of the front as planned? That's how Mal figured out what happened; Kaylee reported unusual chatter from the back of the building. The twenty minutes early was to get rid of them as soon as possible.
The only time I wondered if he had changed his mind was after River started screaming. Jayne told Simon to shut her up and muttered about making a quiet escape. I sorta thought he was talking to himself, and wanted to unbetray the Tams then, but if he was still talking to Simon at that point, then I can't see an unbetrayal. Much as I would like to. 
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I have to say - after re-viewing 'Ariel,' I don't think Jayne re-thought his betrayel or anything.
He betrayed the Tams, and when he was caught by the feds too, his only thought turned to escape. He didn't relent - he just abandoned it.
I didn't feel like he had a change of heart during Simon's examination of River. He wanted to get them out and to the feds as quickly as he could so he could get his reward.
And once caught, he just wanted out. Why did he want to go one way when Simon & River wanted to go the other? Because he knew the way. So what that there were 6 feds - he knew that (and felt they could take them).
So there ya go. I'm throwing my hat into the "Jayne didn't un-betray the Tams" ring.
-F
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