The Great Jayne Debate!
POSTED BY: kef
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 4, 2002 17:05
VIEWED: 37090
PAGE 7 of 14
Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
Running low on Firefly quotes.... must replenish my supply on Friday... (is there a new episode this Friday?)
Unfortunately no new Firefly till Dec 6.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
2. Jayne didn't change his mind. A has no connection to B. In other words you dismiss the sequence of those events, and thereby leaving 20 minutes early is just an unexplained event. Because no where in the story does it explain why Jayne felt he needed to leave 20 minutes early. So if you accept this conclusion you must speculate to explain this, because it's not in the story.
Thegn, I think reasonable minds may differ here. He may have planned all along to announce the change in plans at this time, leaving no chance for Simon to really think about WHY the plans might have changed. If I were Jayne and I needed those twenty minutes to seal the deal, take the money and run, I would have announced it right about when he did. And I certainly wouldn't announe the change in plans the second Simon woke up and give him time to think about what might be happening.
I don't see how we can conclude one way or the other based on what we saw onscreen. As far as I'm concerned the argument could go either way.
However, I'm inclined to think that he didn't change his mind - it's not like he immediately started a fight with the Alliance cops when they showed up. Instead, he bellied right up to collect his money.
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Y'know, has anyone considered the possibility that maybe they PURPOSELY made it ambigous? That they set it up so as to make it look like Jayne MAY have changed his mind about turning them in, but we're not supposed to know for sure? That they WANTED to leave us guessing?
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Despite saying what I said in my previous post - what follows is what I believe has now become My Official Jayne Theory:
While I don't think that Jayne changed his mind about turning them in, I do agree that he started to feel some compassion for River in the diagnostic room. He begins to feel a little uncomfortable, yet he continues to betray her and Simon. But then, the Fed officer betrays HIM. Shoe's on the other foot now, as they say. He's betrayed partners before (Jaynestown, Out Of Gas) but they were mercenaries like himself. But now HE knows what it feels like to be betrayed. That, on top of his beginning to feel compassion for River, and now he starts to feel something . . . but he doesn't understand what it is, because he's never felt this way before.
Later when Simon gushes about what a hero he is, we can see clearly that he's still confused about what he's feeling inside. Then, in the airlock, it suddenly hits him - he's wronged somebody. Someone who didn't deserve it. Perhaps this is the first time in his life that he's felt real shame.
This process of growth may have begun back in Jaynestown, for the obvious reasons. At the end of that episode, he just says "It don't make no sense."
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^There you go. And I agree with absolutely.
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Hi again!
Well... no, I don't think the "Shoe on the other foot" issue matters here.
Jayne's a mercenary, and the same way he can betray his partners, bet your bottom dollar he's been betrayed. Nature of the beast.
Here's my final version:
1. Jayne plans to betray the Tams soon as he knows that they are in range for betrayal. He may or may not be "helping" the crew - he definitely (either way) wants to get paid out of the deal.
2. Jayne finds something to respect in Simon - his plan's a good one. He still plans to sell Simon & River out.
3. Jayne finds himself slightly in awe of the Doctor's skill. He still plans to sell Simon & River out (but maybe he's wavering a bit. Not much though.)
4. Jayne finds out what the Alliance did to River. He changes his mind. Not because he didn't want to still get paid, but because he hates the Alliance, and this shows that what he is leaving the Tams to is beyond even him to do.
5. Jayne rushes out of the room to get away from the Feds... it doesn't quite work out.
6. The Feds bust Jayne in process of escape. Jayne (to cover his own butt, now that there's no hope for Simon & River) plays like he always planned on them getting caught, and looks for his money.
7. The agent, who busted them, knows that he busts them NOT according to plan, and goes ahead to arrest Jayne right along with the rest.
QT
QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006
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One more thought...
I don't personally believe any theory that has Jayne undergoing any growth. Not because it isn't plausible, but because I DON'T want it!!!
We are only in season 1, only 8 episodes in...it's way too early for our characters to start changing. We're JUST getting to know Jayne the mercenary! SO, all of my theories are based on Jayne being Jayne, and on us (and Mal) learning what common human decencies he ALREADY has, that make him able to be a member of the crew.
Sorta like (sorry to do it) what I had HOPED would happen to Tyr on Andromeda...but instead, the Tribunites felt the need to make Tyr more sympathetic, and totally unwrote his character. Dumb move, if you ask me (but nobody did...).
Anyway, I contend that even mercenaries are capable of human feeling and values, and that Jayne is no exception, and I contend that any good that we see from him stems from that place, and that it will take a LONG time for that goodness to develop into something like serious strength of character/integrity.
QT
QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006
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Quote:Absolutely true. But to him, this time it feels different.
Originally posted by QueenTiye:
Hi again!
Well... no, I don't think the "Shoe on the other foot" issue matters here.
Jayne's a mercenary, and the same way he can betray his partners, bet your bottom dollar he's been betrayed. Nature of the beast.
Quote:Jayne's seen the doctor save lives before. He watched him save Zoe in "Out Of Gas" for instance. Why would start feeling more respect now?
3. Jayne finds himself slightly in awe of the Doctor's skill. He still plans to sell Simon & River out (but maybe he's wavering a bit. Not much though.)
Quote:Everyone on Serenity, including Jayne, has known all along that the Alliance had performed some pretty nasty medical experiments on River. Why would merely finding out what the specific medical proceedure was (which he probably doesn't even understand that well) affect Jayne SO MUCH that he suddenly decides right then and there to change everything? To throw away a HUGE reward? To get rid of someone who he's sure will be nothing but trouble for himself and Serenity?
4. Jayne finds out what the Alliance did to River. He changes his mind. Not because he didn't want to still get paid, but because he hates the Alliance, and this shows that what he is leaving the Tams to is beyond even him to do.
It doesn't ring true to me. In your version the change in Jayne happens fairly suddenly. In my version it happens more slowly, more (I think) realistically and humanly.
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Quote:
Originally posted by QueenTiye:
Sorta like (sorry to do it) what I had HOPED would happen to Tyr on Andromeda...but instead, the Tribunites felt the need to make Tyr more sympathetic, and totally unwrote his character. Dumb move, if you ask me (but nobody did...).
QT
QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006
OT, I know, but...What did they do to Tyr?! Argh, I knew there was a reason I stopped watching Andromeda.
"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne
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Quote:Praise god almighty someone other then Delvo and I recognize that Jayne is more complex then just a stereotypical mercenary. He's a human being with human emotions and human weaknesses. One of those weaknesses is his own conscience. Maybe Jayne has done a lot of horrible things in his time, but he didn't do any of them without seeking some way of rationalizing them. Jayne is not robotic. He is not just another Dr. Zachary Smith in the old Lost in Space, existing for no other function then to play the protagonist. He is not a sociopath. He seeks out human justification for his actions, like we all do. He doesn't kill for the pleasure of killing. He never kills without something in his head convincing him that the world is a better place for his actions. He would never sell off members of his own crew, unless he could create a similar justification. And his discovery of the specifics of River's treatment by the Alliance must have heavily bruised whatever justification he was using to convince himself that what he was doing was right.
Originally posted by QueenTiye:
Anyway, I contend that even mercenaries are capable of human feeling and values, and that Jayne is no exception, and I contend that any good that we see from him stems from that place, and that it will take a LONG time for that goodness to develop into something like serious strength of character/integrity.
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In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.
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