The Great Jayne Debate!
POSTED BY: kef
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 4, 2002 17:05
VIEWED: 37090
PAGE 3 of 14
Quote:
Originally posted by esme:
The tension all this created was wonderful, I really thought that Jayne was a goner.
Based on the following 2 facts: 1.) Alec Baldwin only signed up for 8 episodes; and 2.) Arial is to the best of my knowledge the eighth episode; I spent the whole episode waiting for Jayne to die, be shot or something. But being sucked out of an airlock? ::shivers:: OTOH, he deserved it!
Sensou
Who will never, ever, ever forgive Jayne!
Sweet is love when all is sane
Sweet is death to end the pain
Cruel is death when all is well
Cruel is love when all is hell
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Quote:
Sensou
Who will never, ever, ever forgive Jayne!
Be careful...Joss LOVES to redeem a bad boy and reveal his heart of gold. I also think that Jayne formed a new bond with Simon as they killed together.
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Consider this, if Jayne had not changed his mind and intended to betray Simon and River, wouldn't River had reacted more violently to Jayne's betrayal? She would have read his mind and intentions and reacted violently.
Instead, she sensed the nearby Alliance people and simply reacted to their intent.
I happen to like Jayne (with Book and Inara higher in the priority chain). Though Jayne tends to be a selfish and self-centered character, I think that Whedon intends part of the intial episodes of the series to be a way for Jayne's character to change from his selfish nature. "Ariel" is the first step in that change.
And I am sure if River prying into his grey matter wasn't the first step in the direction of putting some sense into his thick skull, maybe that big a$$ wrench Mal used against his head did! 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
Well, many of you seem to be applying your own assumptions to Jayne. In the end though, the character isn't defined by what you think the character is, but rather by that characters actions. And the question still remains, why Jayne chose the moment of discovering the extent of River's injuries to suddenly decide that it was time to leave. The only way your assumptions work is if you dismiss this fact. As a scientist, in my line of work one would be remiss to haphazardly dismiss even the smallest detail. I have also found that a similar line of thinking is very helpful in analysis of good literature. So I guess the question must come down to how much faith you have in the writers to describe the actions of the characters. Some past episodes, I believe, suggest that one should not underestimate them.
I'm not sure your logic here is fool-proof. You say the only way to believe that Jayne didn't change his mind about turning them in is to ignore the fact that he rushed them out of the room early. Since the show didn't show us the full extent of the plan he made with the Feds, we have no way of knowing if he was trying to sneak the Tams away before they showed up to pinch them, or if that was the plan all along, to meet in the back stairwell, so that it could look like an accident.
I did see the look of disgust on his face when he realized what they did to River, but in the end, I think it didn't effect his decision to sell them out. Yes, the alliance did terrible things to River, but her behavior had been endangering the crew, not to mention she had attacked and in my opinion, embarressed Jayne. I think reading sympathy into him is a mistake. Shame, yes. Guilt, sure. But I don't think he ever felt any sympathy for their plight. Only a desire to make some money, and when that failed, save face.
______________
Mal: I never back down from a fight!
Inara: Yes you do! You do all the time!
Mal: Well, yeah.... but I'm not backin down from this.
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Quote:Nonetheless, the fact still remains that the only way to assume that Jayne didn't change the plan is to dismiss the fact that he did insist upon leaving only after discovering the extent of River's injuries. You can try to justify Jayne's position or play games with what we may not know all you want, but in the end you're only working on your speculation or interpretation. There are an infinite possibly of things one can pretend might have transpired out of view of the audience, but the fact is that the writers did not choose those events to show us and are therefore immaterial. What the writers did choose to show us was Jayne insisting upon leaving only after discovering what the Alliance had done to River. Of all the ways the writers might have fashioned that scene, they chose to write it that way. That is not speculation or assumption. It is fact. Jayne's character is not defined by what the audiences pretends might have happened while they weren't watching. Jayne's character is defined by what did happen while we were watching. And the only way to arrive at the conclusion that Jayne never changed his plan is to dismiss the fact that Jayne insisted upon leaving only after discovering the extent of River's injuries.
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
I'm not sure your logic here is fool-proof. You say the only way to believe that Jayne didn't change his mind about turning them in is to ignore the fact that he rushed them out of the room early. Since the show didn't show us the full extent of the plan he made with the Feds, we have no way of knowing if he was trying to sneak the Tams away before they showed up to pinch them, or if that was the plan all along, to meet in the back stairwell, so that it could look like an accident.
I did see the look of disgust on his face when he realized what they did to River, but in the end, I think it didn't effect his decision to sell them out. Yes, the alliance did terrible things to River, but her behavior had been endangering the crew, not to mention she had attacked and in my opinion, embarressed Jayne. I think reading sympathy into him is a mistake. Shame, yes. Guilt, sure. But I don't think he ever felt any sympathy for their plight. Only a desire to make some money, and when that failed, save face.
-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.
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Quote:
Originally posted by esme:
I think Jayne made contact with the alliance after River stabbed him (for fashion? "you'd look better in red" I think it was?)
Someone pointed out somewhere that River was actually slashing the Blue Sun logo on Jayne's shirt. Apparently it's in the actual script. It's the same reason she tore the labels off the cans in Shindig. (is that the right episode?)
Maybe River was saying that the Blue Sun logo looked better in red- bloodstained- i.e. they have blood on their hands. Think about it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
Nonetheless, the fact still remains that the only way to assume that Jayne didn't change the plan is to dismiss the fact that he did insist upon leaving only after discovering the extent of River's injuries. You can try to justify Jayne's position or play games with what we may not know all you want, but in the end you're only working on your speculation or interpretation. There are an infinite possibly of things one can pretend might have transpired out of view of the audience, but the fact is that the writers did not choose those events to show us and are therefore immaterial. What the writers did choose to show us was Jayne changing his mind after discovering what the Alliance had done to River. Of all the ways the writers might have fashioned that scene, they chose to write it that way. That is not speculation or assumption. It is fact. Jayne's character is not defined by what the audiences pretends might have happened while they weren't watching. Jayne's character is defined by what did happen while we were watching. And the only way to arrive at the conclusion that Jayne never changed his plan is to dismiss the fact that Jayne insisted upon leaving only after discovering the extent of River's injuries.
Okay, here's the thing- The fact that Jayne TOLD Simon and River that they had to leave early only after hearing about River does not necessarily mean that that's when he DECIDED to do it. Rushing them out early could have been part of his plan all along - in order to give himself time to take them to the Feds, collect his reward money, deal with any complications, and make it back to Mal, Zoe and Wash waiting at the med vehicle. (He could then claim to Mal that someone recognized the Tams and alerted the guards, but he himself "managed" to get away.) He gave himself 20 minutes because he knew Mal would come looking for them if he took too long getting back to the vehicle. The reason he didn't tell Simon about the "change in plans" earlier was because he didn't want to give Simon time to contact Mal about the change in plans. (Remember- that was exactly what Simon wanted to do when Jayne informed him they had to leave now.)
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Put me in the "Jayne doesn't un-betray them" category.
I think that the reason Jayne hurried them out early is that making an earlier rendezvous with the Alliance stooges was the only way he could be sure of betraying them and collecting the $$$ BEFORE Mal caught him.
I've never had any sense that he changed his mind - only that he wavered a little. And that he felt bad afterward - and I'm absolutely certain that's why Mal didn't space him.
I'll have to think about River's Christmas spiel. Especially interesting was her remark about not looking in the closet because "it's not in the spirit of the season." (From memory) I assumed she was referring to Jayne, too, although sometimes it's hard to decode Riverspeak.
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Dear Kef...I think you're dead on.
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