The Great Jayne Debate!
POSTED BY: kef
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 4, 2002 17:05
VIEWED: 37090
PAGE 6 of 14
Howdy All,
Just thought I'd chime in.
Why would Jayne want to suddenly leave early after seeing the extent of River's injuries and seeing Simon save someone.
Put yourself in Jayne's shoes.
You're screwing someone over, someone you don't like. Suddenly you see them saving other peoples lives and find out just how bad they really had it. If I'm Jayne I either A) Change my mind about screwing them over or B) Hate the fact that I'm suddenly feeling guilty and want to get the whole thing over with before I learn even more about how cool these people really are.
I'm guessing B. On the whole I'm aggreeing with the argument that Kef put out.
Also, if Jayne was trying to get them out before the Feds arrive don't you think he'd be a little more cautious when he was trying to escape with the Tams? He turns his back after opening the door. Something someone on the lookout would never do, but something that someone who is feeling guilty about doing the whole charade might do.
As for the whole "assumption" thing. If you've ever done a deconstruction or read any post-modern philosophy you know you can't do anything without making assumptions. If you assume nothing you can't survive or do anything intelligent at all. I'd like to see someone live one day without making any assumptions. Think about it. I don't think I could survive one day without going insane. Don't mean to sound harsh, but hey, them's the ropes :). Nothin' personal.
Oh, before i forget. Simon didn't kill his man if I remember correctly. He placed his knee over the man's heart, which would not cause death unless held over a prolongued period. Instead it would cause decreased blood flow as well as a decided lack of air, both of which would lead to unconsciousness long before death. Also...again if my memory is correct...the blue dudes sonically boom stick one of the guys before moving on. Since Jayne broke his dudes neck I'm assuming they fry the guy Simon disabled.
Anyhow that's just my 2 cents.
PS-Is it just me or at high altitude (2 minutes from atmo escape) the air would be so thin it would either cause asphyxia or make it nearly impossible to talk?
PSS-Is it just me or is mentioning the altitude thing make me waaaaaaaaaaaaay too nerdy/geeky? DOH!
It's a bird, it's a plane...
No it's a guy in blue tights and a red cape...
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Quote:Cool stuff!
Originally posted by Mopbucket:
Anyhow that's just my 2 cents.
Quote:Actually, he would black out long before he asphyxiated or lost the ablity to talk (in that order) But how about this- Wash said they'd be out of atmo in five minutes. Mal then knocks Jayne unconcious and sticks him in the airlock with a two-way radio. How does Mal know Jayne's going to wake up before they're out of atmo?
PS-Is it just me or at high altitude (2 minutes from atmo escape) the air would be so thin it would either cause asphyxia or make it nearly impossible to talk?
PSS-Is it just me or is mentioning the altitude thing make me waaaaaaaaaaaaay too nerdy/geeky? DOH!
We have to remember people that in the end, this is just a TV show. A scriptwriter has to stick to schedule. Do you really think he's sitting down and working out all these little freakin details? Or that he can anticipate half the stuff we pick up on?
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So here's my take on Jayne's betrayal. I think the timing of Simon finishing the initial scan (determining the extent of her injuries) and Jayne deciding it was time to leave are, indeed, related. Jayne wanted to leave to rendezvous with the Feds at the earliest time possible. In order to have River and Simon come along willingly, he needed to let Simon finish the scan first. Its as simple as that. (This is Jayne we're talking about, simple is what he does best.)
I do, however, believe that Jayne was beginning to regret his decision by this point, but I truly don't think that he ever changed his mind. He had his mind changed for him when he was double-crossed by the Fed agent in charge. It seems that Jayne is learning from this mistake, but I disagree with the Jayne apologists who want to redeem Jayne prematurely and fancy that some amount of unbetrayal was going on.
Clearly these are just my opinions, and I may well be wrong. No offence meant to anyone who feels differently.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
Finally, someone is beginning to understand. You're halfway there. You just need to stop embellishing it so much. That is not my assumption. I'm not assuming anything. On one case, you have to come up with an unwritten explanation to a 20 minute discrepancy and in the other case you don't. One conclusion conserves the storyline the other one doesn't. Which one the writers meant, I don't know. All I am telling you is that in your conclusion, you must dismiss the sequence of these events, and in the other case you don't have to, and as a result of that dismissal you have a 20 minute discrepancy for which you must make up an explanation, because the explanation for it is not there.
There are two things you are missing from your argument, first the writers wanted the audiance to know about rivers condition, an explination for River's mental problems. Simply put the writers HAD to let Simon finish the dignostic so we the audiance would know.
Second you are forgetting one small event the occured between when Simon explained to Jayne River's condition and when Jayne told simon that they had to go, and that is when jayne reached to touch the 3d read-out and Simon stopped him by grabbing his hand then jayne pulled it away and glared at Simon...it is only then that jayne anounces that is time to leave...I have heard many FACTS in this argument about Jayne's unbetrayel but they all seem to ignore the fact that at the very moment he is supposedly changing his mind is also the point in the scene at which Jayne is most anoyed at Simon and reminded of why he doesn't like him in the first place...I ask 'Why would the writers put that part in there, if not to convay that Jayne is about to betray Simon and River?'
I freely admit that durring that scene Jayne is showing simpathy for River and may very well be thinking about not betraying them but when Simon grabs his hand he is instantly galvanized in his intent to betray him.
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I don't think the not-being-allowed-to-touch-the-image thing matters. I think it was just a part of how those two interact. But by that time, Jayne had already taken an inordinate interest in what Simon was doing and what it meant for River.
Anyway, the whole idea of Jayne rushing them out to meet the Feds is hopelessly silly for one simple reason: They're already in Fed territory and they were going to be sitting still for 20 minutes and then following a preset path back out. Under these circumstances, their capture, whether in that room in 5 minutes or on the way out in 25, was already completely assured if he'd just sit back and follow through; changing course and rushing can can not possibly serve ANY purpose but escape. And even if it had been part of the plan to rush them out like that for no reason, Jayne wouldn't have been acting so rushed/panicked; he felt that way because the plans had just then changed on HIM, too, as much as they had on Simon.
Plus, Jayne isn't a hesitating type. He does what he thinks should be done as soon as he figures out what it is. Remember when Mal figured out that there were Reavers on that other ship, for example, and everyone else stood around looking stupid and asking why Mal ordered them off with no explanation? Only Jayne acted immediately and with singleminded focus, and he didn't even know the reason for the order. So when he suddenly does something and is acting jittery about it, you can figure he just then decided to do it... especialy if, right before that, he was already taking an interest in one or two of the possible reasons why he might do so (which would seem to have been put in there to tell us a bit about what he's thinking/feeling; after all Simon could have babbled his discoveries for the audience to Jayne who just snaps back and him "Shut up and finish your work"). And in this case, following the actor's behavior happens to lead to the same conclusion as the timing issue (the fact that there's no possible reason to rush but escape).
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No doubt that this is a great debate! Keep it up guys!
I'm not going to beat a dead horse - It seems to me that all points have been covered up to now. Instead I've got a new angle to check out.
What if Jayne NEVER felt any remorse over his conduct? I have to posit this - What if Jayne has just enough cunning to play on Mal's sometimes misguided sense of loyalty and mercy.
We know that Jayne is a great survivor as well as a habitual liar. Could it be that as he sat in that airlock about to die that he realized that Mal wasn't going to let him live? Could that somewhat dense brain of his have come up with that last statement only to save his ass? Could it be that he only said it to make Mal think that he was turning over a new leaf?
I admit that it seems unlikely, but it would add a whole new dimension to Jayne - maybe he's just not as dumb as he seems and was able to see a way out.
Any thoughts?
The Whiskey Messiah
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Sorry for the double post - how do I delete?
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If he changed his mind then why did he ask for the money from the alliance officer?
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This is a very spirited debate. I like it.
How many shows on television can you sit and discuss in this kind of depth?
(I can just see it now... What do you think Heather Locklear's character really MEANT by sleeping with that girl's boyfriend in Melrose place? do you think she felt guilty about it, or is she just that evil? hehehe)
Joss rocks. How does he come up with these characters that we all care so much about so quickly?
______________
Running low on Firefly quotes.... must replenish my supply on Friday... (is there a new episode this Friday?)
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Quote:
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
This is a very spirited debate. I like it.
How many shows on television can you sit and discuss in this kind of depth?
(I can just see it now... What do you think Heather Locklear's character really MEANT by sleeping with that girl's boyfriend in Melrose place? do you think she felt guilty about it, or is she just that evil? hehehe)
Joss rocks. How does he come up with these characters that we all care so much about so quickly?
______________
Running low on Firefly quotes.... must replenish my supply on Friday... (is there a new episode this Friday?)
Amen!
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