The Great Jayne Debate!
POSTED BY: kef
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 4, 2002 17:05
VIEWED: 37090
PAGE 5 of 14
Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
Nonetheless, the fact still remains that the only way to assume that Jayne didn't change the plan is to dismiss the fact that he did insist upon leaving only after discovering the extent of River's injuries.
He wanted to get Simon and River to the Feds with as little fuss as possible. Which is easier? 1) Tell Simon earlier that Mal changed the plans, and there isn't time for Simon to use the equipment to examine River, or 2) wait until Simon at least got to do an initial examination and collect some data, so Simon would go along without arguing, demanding to stay, etc.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by esme:Quote:
Sensou
Who will never, ever, ever forgive Jayne!
Be careful...Joss LOVES to redeem a bad boy and reveal his heart of gold. I also think that Jayne formed a new bond with Simon as they killed together.
I don't think Simon killed his guard, just rendered him unconscious. When they got to the room, Mr. Blue Hands #1 reports that one guard is dead, and Mr. Blue Hands #2 says the other one is still alive...then kills him with the sonic brain melter device.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
The sequence of events is
A. Simon reports the extent of River's injuries.
Then
B. Jayne insists on leaving.
Now the possible conclusions:
1. Jayne changed his mind about turning Simon and River in. A following B makes sense, if it suggests Jayne is acting on pitty for River or disdain for the Alliance.
2. Jayne didn't change his mind. A has no connection to B. In other words you dismiss the sequence of those events, and thereby leaving 20 minutes early is just an unexplained event. Because no where in the story does it explain why Jayne felt he needed to leave 20 minutes early. So if you accept this conclusion you must speculate to explain this, because it's not in the story.
Actually, Jayne provides his own explanation: Mal changed the plans. The fact that the viewers know that Mal did NOT change the plans illustrates that Jayne is following his own agenda. Now knowing that Jayne is lying, which is simpler:
1. Jayne hurries S&R out in order to more easily hand S&R over to the Feds, or
2. Jayne hurries S&R due to a last-minute, out-of-character change of heart after already making plans to betray S&R to the Feds.
In *either* case you have to make an assuption about Jayne's intentions. When you suggest A causes B, you assume that B would not have happened without A. But the show does not provide us with a causal link, you are just inferring the cause-and-effect relationship.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:ASSUMMING he actually did want to get Simon and River to the Feds.
Originally posted by Shiny:
He wanted to get Simon and River to the Feds with as little fuss as possible. Which is easier? 1) Tell Simon earlier that Mal changed the plans, and there isn't time for Simon to use the equipment to examine River, or 2) wait until Simon at least got to do an initial examination and collect some data, so Simon would go along without arguing, demanding to stay, etc.
Quote:Yes. I have to concede this point. Ultimately, I think you have to dismiss the relationship between the two events.
Originally posted by Shiny:
In *either* case you have to make an assuption about Jayne's intentions. When you suggest A causes B, you assume that B would not have happened without A. But the show does not provide us with a causal link, you are just inferring the cause-and-effect relationship.
-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
[Quote:
I don't think Simon killed his guard, just rendered him unconscious. When they got to the room, Mr. Blue Hands #1 reports that one guard is dead, and Mr. Blue Hands #2 says the other one is still alive...then kills him with the sonic brain melter device.
Once again, damn my lack of tivo or vhs.
Too bad, though, cause I thought Simon showed a new hard-core (Jayn-ish?) side to his personality by killing someone who was in his way.
Funny how the human deaths on FF affect me-
Not so on BTVS or Angel (the only three shows I watch)
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
I respect people who aren't afraid to make their argument.Perhaps I've failed to structure my arguments correctly. If so, I apologies. I think you might be misinterpreting them however. In one conclusion, only the facts of the story are needed to explain the events. In your conclusion, speculation is needed to explain them. I don't know which one is true as far as the writers are concerned, I just know which one conserves the sequence of events. And actually, in spite of all this, I think I've made up my mind about which conclusion I actually do want to go with. I think I'm going to with conclusion #2. Despite the discrepancy it seems to work.
Hey Thegn, somehow I missed this post earlier. I didn't read it until now. Welcome to our side! Enjoyed crossing swords with you my friend- you're a worthy opponent.
We need a smiley face thing where they're shaking hands.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
The sequence of events is
A. Simon reports the extent of River's injuries.
Then
B. Jayne insists on leaving.
Now the possible conclusions:
1. Jayne changed his mind about turning Simon and River in. A following B makes sense, if it suggests Jayne is acting on pitty for River or disdain for the Alliance.
2. Jayne didn't change his mind. A has no connection to B. In other words you dismiss the sequence of those events, and thereby leaving 20 minutes early is just an unexplained event. Because no where in the story does it explain why Jayne felt he needed to leave 20 minutes early. So if you accept this conclusion you must speculate to explain this, because it's not in the story.
Actually, Jayne provides his own explanation: Mal changed the plans. The fact that the viewers know that Mal did NOT change the plans illustrates that Jayne is following his own agenda. Now knowing that Jayne is lying, which is simpler:
1. Jayne hurries S&R out in order to more easily hand S&R over to the Feds, or
2. Jayne hurries S&R due to a last-minute, out-of-character change of heart after already making plans to betray S&R to the Feds.
In *either* case you have to make an assuption about Jayne's intentions. When you suggest A causes B, you assume that B would not have happened without A. But the show does not provide us with a causal link, you are just inferring the cause-and-effect relationship.
After all this discussion we can't know for sure when Jayne changed his mind, but, this is my humble opinion.
He does seem to be in wonder of Simon saving the dying man and uncomfortable with seeing River's brain scans. He still seems to act out his own agenda up untill he is detained and realizes he has been set up by his setup.
As for the reason they left when they did maybe was the writers wanted enough time to explain some of River's past experiments to set up her story, not Jayne's redemption or anything else.
Although, at the end he does seem to understand a little more when faced with his own death after having just escaped death for his scheme with the feds.
Interested to see how his character plays out over the next episodes. (Whenevr that is)
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by esme:
Once again, damn my lack of tivo or vhs.
Too bad, though, cause I thought Simon showed a new hard-core (Jayn-ish?) side to his personality by killing someone who was in his way.
Funny how the human deaths on FF affect me-
Not so on BTVS or Angel (the only three shows I watch)
Yeah I kinda liked that idea too.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:If it's so obvious then I guess I must be the only person in this threat to miss this ambiguity. And I do dreadfully apologies for my complete stupidity.
Originally posted by kef:
And what's wrong with that? That's how good writers write. They don't clutter up the story by purposely explaining every single thing. They figure that we're intellegent enough to make obvious assumptions.
Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
The only thing I definitely CAN'T explain is why he wanted to get them out earlier than planned, You have me on that one!
-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Plenty of people missed it (that's assuming I'm right.) That's why I started this thread. But maybe Jose Molina messed up and didn't make it obvious enough.
Originally posted by Thegn:Quote:If it's so obvious then I guess I must be the only person in this threat to miss this ambiguity. And I do dreadfully apologies for my complete stupidity.
Originally posted by kef:
And what's wrong with that? That's how good writers write. They don't clutter up the story by purposely explaining every single thing. They figure that we're intellegent enough to make obvious assumptions.
Quote:Hey! No fair! I was young when I wrote that.Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
The only thing I definitely CAN'T explain is why he wanted to get them out earlier than planned, You have me on that one!
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME