The Great Jayne Debate!
POSTED BY: kef
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 4, 2002 17:05
VIEWED: 37090
PAGE 4 of 14
Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
Okay, here's the thing- The fact that Jayne TOLD Simon and River that they had to leave early only after hearing about River does not necessarily mean that that's when he DECIDED to do it. Rushing them out early could have been part of his plan all along - in order to give himself time to take them to the Feds, collect his reward money, deal with any complications, and make it back to Mal, Zoe and Wash waiting at the med vehicle. (He could then claim to Mal that someone recognized the Tams and alerted the guards, but he himself "managed" to get away.) He gave himself 20 minutes because he knew Mal would come looking for them if he took too long getting back to the vehicle. The reason he didn't tell Simon about the "change in plans" earlier was because he didn't want to give Simon time to contact Mal about the change in plans. (Remember- that was exactly what Simon wanted to do when Jayne informed him they had to leave now.)
This is just your speculation. You are speculating on Jayne’s state of mind to force the story to adhere to your perception of Jayne’s character. No where in the episode did Jayne ever say that he needed to give himself 20 minutes for anything. So that is just an assumption you are applying. It is not in the story. It is not something the writers conveyed. That’s something you made up.
Once again, in order to assume that Jayne didn't change his plan one MUST dismiss the FACT that Jayne chose to leave only after discovering the extent of River's injuries. That is a fact.
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^Actually, we don't know *when* Jayne decided what time they needed to leave. All we know is what he said - that there'd been a change of plans while they were unconscious.
Half of us saw one thing, half saw another - that tells me that it's in the eye of the beholder.
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Quote:Yes. This is correct. We don't necessarily know what Jayne was thinking. We aren't privy to Jayne's state of mind. We only know what he did in the show. Which is why it is meaningless that so many of you are making up stories about what Jayne did or thought while the camera was on someone else.
Originally posted by Rhea:
^Actually, we don't know *when* Jayne decided what time they needed to leave. All we know is what he said - that there'd been a change of plans while they were unconscious.
This is not that difficult. We don't know what Jayne was thinking. But what we do know is that Jayne had previously set up a plan in which he would sell Simon and River to the Alliance. We know this because of this communication at the hospital. We also know that Jayne changed the plan that Simon had thought they were following, what we don't know is if Jayne changed the plan as Jayne thought. This was all set up by the writers. This wasn't a mistake. But why would the writers make it so plane that Jayne was not only insisting on leaving 20 minutes earlier but also only after discovering the extent of River's injuries.
The writers weren't kind enough to give you the information Jayne was thinking, so you must infer from the information the writers did give you, and you have a choice:
You can either say that Jayne didn't change his plan to get rid of Simon and River, but in order to do that, you MUST dismiss the FACT that Jayne insisted that they leave only after he discovered the extent of River's injury.
OR
You can say that Jayne changed his mind for whatever reason, and then you don't have to dismiss anything.
But if you say that Jayne didn't change his plan, you must dismiss that fact.
I'm not sure I'm getting my point across, but it all has to do with the difference between fact and assumption. Many of you are working off assumption, not fact. You've assumed that Jayne is incapable of changing his plan, and some of you are trying to make the story fit that assumption often by creating elaborate back story. But in order to do that, you must dismiss a fact of the story. There's no way around that.
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Rhea And Kef... Thank you! I'm glad I'm not speaking in tongues here and that someone else got what I was trying to say.
Thegn... you saying that he made the decision to leave early when he found out what had happened is just as much an inference as us saying he had the plan all along. You don't know when he made the decision, only when he announced it. He may have made the decision to leave early and not give Simon any warning much earlier. Or he may have made the decision right then because he felt so horrible about the mess the alliance put poor River through. Both are guesses, and unless you have seen a script where the writer says "Jayne realizes he was wrong and decides not to turn in the Tams, so they must leave early" then you don't know any better than the rest of us.
I know that sounds bitchy, and it's not intended to be an attack. Just a comment on the way you structure your argument. You are dismissing our theory saying we are making up what happens off camera, while your theory is based on fact because you saw what happened. When, in fact, your "facts" are just as much speculation as ours.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
This is just your speculation. You are speculating on Jayne’s state of mind to force the story to adhere to your perception of Jayne’s character. No where in the episode did Jayne ever say that he needed to give himself 20 minutes for anything. So that is just an assumption you are applying. It is not in the story. It is not something the writers conveyed. That’s something you made up.
Once again, in order to assume that Jayne didn't change his plan one MUST dismiss the FACT that Jayne chose to leave only after discovering the extent of River's injuries. That is a fact.
Thegn, your facts are also just speculations. The FACT is, we're BOTH speculating, based on what we each think we're seeing.
No where in the episode did Jayne ever say that he needed to give himself 20 minutes for anything. Absolutely true. But then why would he need to? Characters usually don't explain to the audience everything they're doing, do they?. By the same token, at no time does Jayne say when- or why- he made the decision to leave early, either. You're ASSUMING that he made that decision because of River's diagnosis only because he didn't announce it until afterward. You can not state as a FACT when Jayne made his decision simply because you THINK you know why he made the decision.
You're assuming that Jose Molina wrote the timing of Jayne's announcement of the plan change in order to show when he made his decision. And that he did so in order to paint Jayne a certain way. What is your basis for your assumtion?
I'm claiming that Jose Molina wrote the timing that way for a simpler reason- so as not to leave any plot holes in Jayne's plan to turn in the Tams.
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Quote:Finally, someone is beginning to understand. You're halfway there. You just need to stop embellishing it so much. That is not my assumption. I'm not assuming anything. On one case, you have to come up with an unwritten explanation to a 20 minute discrepancy and in the other case you don't. One conclusion conserves the storyline the other one doesn't. Which one the writers meant, I don't know. All I am telling you is that in your conclusion, you must dismiss the sequence of these events, and in the other case you don't have to, and as a result of that dismissal you have a 20 minute discrepancy for which you must make up an explanation, because the explanation for it is not there.
Originally posted by kef:
You're assuming that Jose Molina wrote the timing of Jayne's announcement of the plan change in order to show when he made his decision. And that he did so in order to paint Jayne a certain way. What is your basis for your assumtion?
I'm claiming that Jose Molina wrote the timing that way for a simpler reason- so as not to leave any plot holes in Jayne's plan to turn in the Tams.
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In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.
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Quote:I'm not claiming to know one way or another. I'm just introducing a point to the discussion.
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
Thegn... you saying that he made the decision to leave early when he found out what had happened is just as much an inference as us saying he had the plan all along. You don't know when he made the decision, only when he announced it. He may have made the decision to leave early and not give Simon any warning much earlier. Or he may have made the decision right then because he felt so horrible about the mess the alliance put poor River through. Both are guesses, and unless you have seen a script where the writer says "Jayne realizes he was wrong and decides not to turn in the Tams, so they must leave early" then you don't know any better than the rest of us.
The sequence of events is
A. Simon reports the extent of River's injuries.
Then
B. Jayne insists on leaving.
Now the possible conclusions:
1. Jayne changed his mind about turning Simon and River in. A following B makes sense, if it suggests Jayne is acting on pitty for River or disdain for the Alliance.
2. Jayne didn't change his mind. A has no connection to B. In other words you dismiss the sequence of those events, and thereby leaving 20 minutes early is just an unexplained event. Because no where in the story does it explain why Jayne felt he needed to leave 20 minutes early. So if you accept this conclusion you must speculate to explain this, because it's not in the story.
In conclusion #1 the two events fall together and conserve the sequence of the story.
In conclusion #2 the two events do not fall together and the story is not conserved leaving an unexplained event.
I never said conclusion #1 is true, because that depends on the writers. I already pointed out that in my first post which you responded too. Without knowing what the writers think, we can't explicitly make that decision. So we are left with just which one works simplest in the storyline.
Quote:I respect people who aren't afraid to make their argument.
Originally posted by bobknaptor:
I know that sounds bitchy, and it's not intended to be an attack. Just a comment on the way you structure your argument. You are dismissing our theory saying we are making up what happens off camera, while your theory is based on fact because you saw what happened. When, in fact, your "facts" are just as much speculation as ours.
Perhaps I've failed to structure my arguments correctly. If so, I apologies. I think you might be misinterpreting them however. In one conclusion, only the facts of the story are needed to explain the events. In your conclusion, speculation is needed to explain them. I don't know which one is true as far as the writers are concerned, I just know which one conserves the sequence of events. And actually, in spite of all this, I think I've made up my mind about which conclusion I actually do want to go with. I think I'm going to with conclusion #2. Despite the discrepancy it seems to work. -----------
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
Finally, someone is beginning to understand. You're halfway there. You just need to stop embellishing it so much. That is not my assumption. I'm not assuming anything. On one case, you have to come up with an unwritten explanation to a 20 minute discrepancy and in the other case you don't. One conclusion conserves the storyline the other one doesn't. Which one the writers meant, I don't know. All I am telling you is that in your conclusion, you must dismiss the sequence of these events, and in the other case you don't have to, and as a result of that dismissal you have a 20 minute discrepancy for which you must make up an explanation, because the explanation for it is not there.
You're halfway there. I don't understand what this means.
You just need to stop embellishing it so much. Embellishing what? Jayne was going to turn in the Tams, correct? My contention is that that's ALL that happened. He did it. Period. End of story. To me THAT'S the simplest explanation to everything we saw happen.
in your conclusion, you must dismiss the sequence of these events I'm NOT dismissing the sequence of events. I don't know why you keep saying that. All I'm saying is I don't understand why you've put this huge significance in it, why you think it MUST mean something. So you've come up with this theory that Jayne changed his mind about turning in the Tams. Which sounds like an embellishment to me.
you have a 20 minute discrepancy for which you must make up an explanation, because the explanation for it is not there. ??? The explanation is that they left early so Jayne can turn them in. Period. Why aren't you getting this?
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Quote:It’s NOT explained by the facts of the story. It must be assumed by the audience. What part of that are you not getting?
Originally posted by kef:
The explanation is that they left early so Jayne can turn them in. Period. Why aren't you getting this?
But I agree with you, I think Jayne did mean to turn them in.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
It’s NOT explained by the facts of the story. It must be assumed by the audience.
And what's wrong with that? That's how good writers write. They don't clutter up the story by purposely explaining every single thing. They figure that we're intellegent enough to make obvious assumptions.
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