ARIEL

POSTED BY: Evans
UPDATED: Saturday, November 30, 2002 17:13
VIEWED: 10211
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KEF

Sunday, November 17, 2002 9:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo:
Quote:
What??? Are you watching the same show? Because I've rewatched it three times since last night (trying to pick up quotes) and your description of what happened when they left the diagnostic room is completely wrong!
We're talking abou the same thing here, you're just not reading what I said right...
Quote:
They didn't get caught because they took too long. Simon wanted to take longer but Jayne hurried them out of the diagnostic room.
Right. Jayne wanted to get them out quicker. That's why I said it looks like this is when he's already un-betrayed them; there's no reason for him to be in a rush like that if he knows the officers are waiting for them anyway, or if they're coming to get them in the scanning room. Then he could just wait for them, or stick to the original plan and wait until Simon was finished to deliver them. Suddenly changing plans and being in a big hurry only makes sense if he's hoping to slip past the guards before they're in position. But he wasn't able to rush Simon out quick enough, so it didn't work.

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After leaving the diagnostic room, Simon specifically said: "You should have let me know when the plan changed." Because Jayne DID change the route.
Listen to yourself there; he said "plan". A plan includes timing. That's all that changed. Simon wasn't complaining about the route, only how little time he'd gotten. That's the only thing he specified. The two of them had no argument about which way to go at this point.

And think about why Jayne would even want them to go out the back at all anyway; he wouldn't have arrangd a meeting with the officers in a specific location that was OFF of the planned route and therefor likely to arouse Simon's suspicion; he would have had them wait right where they were going to be anyway according to Simon's plan, or had them come to where they were sitting still in the scanner room.

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Furthermore, that's how Mal was able to figure out what Jayne did.
That entire area they were going through after they escaped- from where they were captured to were Mal found them- is "the back".
Like I said, after they'd been caught and then escaped, they had to turn "back" because River ran that way while Jayne and Simon were trying to settle which way they should go. Jayne wanted to go out the way they'd come in, which was the front. Mal, meanwhile, knew that they were running away in an unplanned direction for one possible reason: because things hadn't gone smooth, and so he surmised that a betrayal by Jayne was the reason things hadn't gone smooth.

I conceed. Yes, I WAS misinterpreting what you were saying. Your points made sense this time. Looking at the tape one last time with your interpretation, I see what you're saying. My apologies!

VISIONARY

Sunday, November 17, 2002 11:58 PM

Anyway....

Continuing the "River Theory" side of this:

I think they were trying to turn River into one of their agents. Those Blue Hand fellows have a creepy edge to them, they are impervious to the effects if their little device, and they knew exactly which way River, Simon and Jayne ran.

I think that the Blue Hands are the end result of the experiments conducted on River...she just wasn't far enough along when she was rescued (she's kind of "half-baked" if you will).

Obviously she was chosen because she has some ability in her in the first place, the experiments (at the Academy, remember, which implies training) are to amplify her skills and remove her ability to suprress them.

Book: Folks like a man of God.
Mal: No they don't! Men of God make everyone feel guilty and judged.

KEF

Monday, November 18, 2002 12:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Visionary:
Anyway....

Continuing the "River Theory" side of this:

I think they were trying to turn River into one of their agents. Those Blue Hand fellows have a creepy edge to them, they are impervious to the effects if their little device, and they knew exactly which way River, Simon and Jayne ran.

I think that the Blue Hands are the end result of the experiments conducted on River...she just wasn't far enough along when she was rescued (she's kind of "half-baked" if you will).

Obviously she was chosen because she has some ability in her in the first place, the experiments (at the Academy, remember, which implies training) are to amplify her skills and remove her ability to suprress them.

Book: Folks like a man of God.
Mal: No they don't! Men of God make everyone feel guilty and judged.

That's been my pet theory as well. Exactly.

THEGN

Monday, November 18, 2002 2:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Evans:
Disagree! He still led Simon and River to the Feds after he'd seen Simon save the man and Simon explain the holograph. When he was handcuffed, he still believed it was part of an act, and didn't kick into "self-preservation" unitl he realized he himself was in the soup. He did unlock the cuffs from the siblings, but by that time it was clear that Simon was going to cooperate.

He didn't lead Simon and River to the Feds. He attempted to lead them out before the Feds arrived after hearing what Simon had to say about River's condition, but unfortunately he didn't make it in time. It wasn't self preservation that made Jayne change his mind, although as Delvo pointed out, it may not have been compassion. Read Delvo's response above. He has explained it well.

Compassion was my first impression, but it may have been any number of things. Owing to Jayne's characteristic dislike of Simon and the fact that Simon has already proven his worth as a doctor on several occasions I doubt that it was a renewed faith in Simon or his expertise. However, it could have been a hatred of the Alliance. That is true. Though I think that might suggest compassion as well. If the Alliance represents, in Jayne's mind, an absolute wrong, an "evil" as it were, then could not his desire to save River from that evil be interpreted as compassion?

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In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

EVANS

Monday, November 18, 2002 3:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
He didn't lead Simon and River to the Feds. He attempted to lead them out before the Feds arrived after hearing what Simon had to say about River's condition, but unfortunately he didn't make it in time.

I do not see where this comes from. I got the impression that he rushed the siblings out, so that he could get his ree-ward before Mal figured out that something was fishy. We, the audience, were startled, along with the sibs, when the Feds appeared. I don't think Jayne was surprised. His only surprise came when he was cuffed, and then he still thought it was an act. It wasn't until he realized he was losing his precious money that he started thinking about saving his own hide.

Other than money, he cares only for Mal's leadership (and good opinion? I can see hours of discussion or downright argument about it). He is coarse to the women and rude to everyone. He left his former employ for more money and creature comforts on Serenity. We've seen him polishing coins as lovingly as he sharpens his knives and cleans his guns. He was thrown, truly puzzled, by the young man's taking Jayne's bullet in Canton. Simon's actions may cause him to look at things in another way, but it is heavy going for a leopard to change its spots.

Back at Serenity with Mal's full fury in his face, Jayne still tried to lie. When that failed, he tried to hedge. When it appeared he would die in moments, he asked Mal to lie for him. It will be infinitely interesting to see how Mal treats Jayne in the episodes that are in the can or scheduled to shoot.

m.

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"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL

KEF

Monday, November 18, 2002 4:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
He didn't lead Simon and River to the Feds. He attempted to lead them out before the Feds arrived after hearing what Simon had to say about River's condition, but unfortunately he didn't make it in time. It wasn't self preservation that made Jayne change his mind, although as Delvo pointed out, it may not have been compassion. Read Delvo's response above. He has explained it well.

Compassion was my first impression, but it may have been any number of things. Owing to Jayne's characteristic dislike of Simon and the fact that Simon has already proven his worth as a doctor on several occasions I doubt that it was a renewed faith in Simon or his expertise. However, it could have been a hatred of the Alliance. That is true. Though I think that might suggest compassion as well. If the Alliance represents, in Jayne's mind, an absolute wrong, an "evil" as it were, then could not his desire to save River from that evil be interpreted as compassion?

You guys definitely have a strong argument for your case, no question! However I'm still not 100 percent conviced. Three things bother me:

1) While they were in custody, River went into her "They took Christmas away . . . nothing left but coal." rant. It would seem that she's talking about Jayne - referring to to the fact that Jayne lost his reward because the Fed officer stole it from him by doublecrossing him. This doesn't work if Jayne had already decided to forego the reward before they were captured. On the other hand, she could be referring to the Fed guy, who wasn't going to be getting the reward either. Except that we wasn't going to just lose it and be left with "coal" - he was going to be killed. Plus River is talking in the past tense- about something that's already happened. So it doesn't quite fit unless she was referring to Jayne. (And don't tell me she was just talking gibberish!)

2) I just don't buy the motivation(s) for Jayne changing his mind in the exam room. It just doesn't ring true to me. (it's simply my opinion)

3) If Jayne had changed his mind in the exam room, it kind of takes a bit of wind out of the final scene between him and Mal. It's here at this point that I see, in Jayne's face, the change take place inside him. I didn't see that in the exam room.

These are not the strongest arguments I admit, but they're enough to bother me. I'm sure you'll have plenty to say about them, and I'll be happy to read it all. I really don't mind when someone is able to convince me I'm wrong (and I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong a lot!) in a good debate.

This is REALLY intriguing! Does anyone know how to get in touch with Jose Molina? I would love to know how he wanted us to see it.

SHINY

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Evans:
The Blue Gloves are the one sour note in this splendid series, for me. Too other-realmish, too Buffy or Angel for a show that wants to show real people's struggles in a different setting.

I don't really like the blue gloves either. I'm worried that plot-line will go down some drawn-out, unnecessarily complicated X-files-like conspiracy. The sonic brain melter device seemed unnecessary and inefficient, as if it is only there to add mystery and danger to the blue hands instead of for any practical reason (there are lots of faster ways and/or less traceable ways to kill)

EVANS

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 2:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
I'm worried that plot-line will go down some drawn-out, unnecessarily complicated X-files-like conspiracy.

I am tired, tired, tired of conspiracy theory TV shows.

m.

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"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL

KEF

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 3:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Evans:
Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
I'm worried that plot-line will go down some drawn-out, unnecessarily complicated X-files-like conspiracy.

I am tired, tired, tired of conspiracy theory TV shows.

Particularly after the X Files conspiracy paid off so handsomely after eight years. Ouch.

SPACECOWBOY

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 11:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
2) I just don't buy the motivation(s) for Jayne changing his mind in the exam room. It just doesn't ring true to me. (it's simply my opinion)

3) If Jayne had changed his mind in the exam room, it kind of takes a bit of wind out of the final scene between him and Mal. It's here at this point that I see, in Jayne's face, the change take place inside him. I didn't see that in the exam room.

I agree with you here. Jayne was def intent on selling the sibs down the river up until he knew the feds were double crossing him.
I don't believe he even felt bad about his treachery when Mal confronted him on Serenity. It seemed to me that after his initial panic, he accepted the fact that Mal had busted him, and accepted his fate. He just wanted Mal to preserve his sense of honour with the rest of the crew, which proved to Mal that he had a sense of honour, and thus Mal spared him. Course I would'a still flushed him!

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