ARIEL
POSTED BY: Evans
UPDATED: Saturday, November 30, 2002 17:13
VIEWED: 10211
PAGE 2 of 4
That's the impression I get too.
As for Jayne 
I love him. He adds so much realism to the show. If there was no other reason to like this show he would be enough. And his fight with the Alliance dude looked so realistic it made me cringe. In most other shows, when the bad guy starts drawing blood that's generally a queue for the good guy to jump back with a quaint yelp to draw sympathy from the audience. But in reality, adrenaline usually mutes much of the pain one feels in fighting, especially if one is fighting for one's life, which is why fights can often become very bloody.
Jayne is one of the best rounded characters on the show. He is extremely arrogant, selfish, insensitive and even a little sadistic, yet at the same time we see him as one of most courageous and often practical members of the crew. He even possess some level of compassion and empathy, as we see in Ariel when he dismissed his plot to sell out River when he discovered how wrongly she had been treated. However, even Jayne's courage has limitations. This is why, despite his strength, he will never be a leader. It's obvious that he fears Mal. And this is actually very typical of domineering men. They very often avoid confrontation with similarly strong men, especially where they perceive those men as having a moral authority. Jayne can't understand why Mal is so protective of his crew, because in Jayne's mind this is a sign of weakness, yet obviously Mal is not weak. And this will forever baffle Jayne. This is the inferiority complex that comes from Jayne's deep-rooted self-consciousness. Almost in the same way wolves concede authority to the alpha male, Jayne concedes authority to Mal. Yet probably most interesting of all is the way Jayne so frequently comes across as the guy you want on your side. Despite his brutal criminal tendencies, his ability to willingly kill with his bare hands actually makes him a valuable asset. There's a very realistic dichotomy at work in here.
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In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.
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Yes, ME is certianly very fond of crazy people. And as with River, if you anaylize what they say, you can find some pretty neat stuff. For instance in "Crush," when Dru has buffy by the throat, she says:
Quote:
"Hear the pretty music? It's a dirge I think... For your funeral... (a quizzical look) But it's not here..."
Essentially, she felt that Buffy was going to die, and soon, just not that day. She predicted the end of "The Gift."
And it's not only "physic" characters. After being brain-sucked by Glory, Tara had preminitions as well. She said to Giles: "You're a killer," shortly before he killed Ben. Even Spike, who has been able to see Morphy when others can't. And remember how only the insane could see the key?
Quote:
DAWN: "The Key is not directly described in any known literature, but all research indicates an energy matrix vibrating at a dimensional frequency beyond normal human perception. Only those outside reality can see the Key's true nature." Outside reality? What's that mean?
SPIKE: Second sight blokes, maybe. Or even just your run-o'-the-mill lunatics.
It appears that in the Whedonverses, insanity isn't so much losing your grip on reality, but altering your perception of it.
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Still unhappy? Okey-doke. I've got two words that are going to take all the pain away: Miniature. Golf.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo:
Remember that River's flashbacks seem to mostly pertain to medical procedures, and Simon said they'd done multiple procedures on her head. To me, that doesn't say that the Alliance people in charge knew what to do and how to do it and were targetting their efforts at a specific goal. It says "experimentation". They caught on that there was something special about her mind, and they were fiddling around with it to try to learn more about it and see what happened.
That's a good theory too. Although if they were simply experimenting with her and had no specific goal, (and it's implyed that they were "experimenting" on plenty of others back at that place Simon rescued her from) why are they so hell-bent on getting her back?
All just speculations here.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
That's the impression I get too.
As for Jayne
Jayne is one of the best rounded characters on the show. He is extremely arrogant, selfish, insensitive and even a little sadistic, yet at the same time we see him as one of most courageous and often practical members of the crew. He even possess some level of compassion and empathy, as we see in Ariel when he dismissed his plot to sell out River when he discovered how wrongly she had been treated. However, even Jayne's courage has limitations. This is why, despite his strength, he will never be a leader. It's obvious that he fears Mal. And this is actually very typical of domineering men. They very often avoid confrontation with similarly strong men, especially where they perceive those men as having a moral authority. Jayne can't understand why Mal is so protective of his crew, because in Jayne's mind this is a sign of weakness, yet obviously Mal is not weak. And this will forever baffle Jayne. This is the inferiority complex that comes from Jayne's deep-rooted self-consciousness. Almost in the same way wolves concede authority to the alpha male, Jayne concedes authority to Mal. Yet probably most interesting of all is the way Jayne so frequently comes across as the guy you want on your side. Despite his brutal criminal tendencies, his ability to willingly kill with his bare hands actually makes him a valuable asset. There's a very realistic dichotomy at work in here.
Not to mess with your admiration of Jayne, but he didn't "dismissed his plot to sell out River when he discovered how wrongly she had been treated." He continued to purposely lead them into the place where he knew the Feds were waiting, even after Simon had diagnosed what had been done to River. He may or may not have have felt some compassion, but he still went trough with the plan to turn them in. He then "rescued" them ONLY after he'd been doublecrossed and it was clear he wasn't going to get any reward.
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Quote:It looked more to a bunch of us like he was trying to slip them through BEFORE the agents would get there... although his motivation might not have been compassion for River anyway even in ithis case; it could also have been a rekindled hatred of the Alliance, or a new respect of Simon for the only thing he finds respectable (being good at one's job), or having coincidentally reconsidered the finances and decided that long-term gig on the ship was better than a one-time windfall...
He continued to purposely lead them into the place where he knew the Feds were waiting
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If he changed his mind about turned them over to the Feds, why did he continue to take them out "the back", where he knew the Feds were waiting, instead of taking them out "the front" as was Simon's/Mal's original plan? Mal and Zoe had just taken the drugs out "the front" and were waiting for them to come out the same way. All Jayne had to do was turn River's wheelchair around! Sorry, I don't buy it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thegn:
He even possess some level of compassion and empathy, as we see in Ariel when he dismissed his plot to sell out River when he discovered how wrongly she had been treated.
Disagree! He still led Simon and River to the Feds after he'd seen Simon save the man and Simon explain the holograph. When he was handcuffed, he still believed it was part of an act, and didn't kick into "self-preservation" unitl he realized he himself was in the soup. He did unlock the cuffs from the siblings, but by that time it was clear that Simon was going to cooperate.
Quote:
Despite his brutal criminal tendencies, his ability to willingly kill with his bare hands actually makes him a valuable asset. There's a very realistic dichotomy at work in here.
Agree. In "Out of Gas," Mal said to Inara, "Jayne'll be worth something if you run into trouble. But don't trust him, and don't let him take over. You're paid up through the end of the month. It's still your ship."
m.
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound. " Wash, in ARIEL
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Quote:I think you're getting the story mixed up. He took them out from the scanning room the way the plan was originally to be: the front. Simon was concerned only about the rush, not the changed route, because it wasn't changed. They hadn't gotten moving in time, so they got caught. After escaping, they had a scene in a hallway where Jayne was going to take them out the front again; he responded to Simon's objection that that way was guarded by saying that they already knew that way out and wouldn't get lost, implying that he figured he could get them through the guards. They only ended up going out the back because River ran off (seeming to know the way, or so one of the guys at least muttered he hoped was the case) and the guys followed her to avoid breaking up the group.
Originally posted by kef:
If he changed his mind about turned them over to the Feds, why did he continue to take them out "the back", where he knew the Feds were waiting, instead of taking them out "the front" as was Simon's/Mal's original plan? Mal and Zoe had just taken the drugs out "the front" and were waiting for them to come out the same way. All Jayne had to do was turn River's wheelchair around! Sorry, I don't buy it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo:Quote:I think you're getting the story mixed up. He took them out from the scanning room the way the plan was originally to be: the front. Simon was concerned only about the rush, not the changed route, because it wasn't changed. They hadn't gotten moving in time, so they got caught. After escaping, they had a scene in a hallway where Jayne was going to take them out the front again; he responded to Simon's objection that that way was guarded by saying that they already knew that way out and wouldn't get lost, implying that he figured he could get them through the guards. They only ended up going out the back because River ran off (seeming to know the way, or so one of the guys at least muttered he hoped was the case) and the guys followed her to avoid breaking up the group.
Originally posted by kef:
If he changed his mind about turned them over to the Feds, why did he continue to take them out "the back", where he knew the Feds were waiting, instead of taking them out "the front" as was Simon's/Mal's original plan? Mal and Zoe had just taken the drugs out "the front" and were waiting for them to come out the same way. All Jayne had to do was turn River's wheelchair around! Sorry, I don't buy it.
What??? Are you watching the same show? Because I've rewatched it three times since last night (trying to pick up quotes) and your description of what happened when they left the diagnostic room is completely wrong!
1) They didn't get caught because they took too long. Simon wanted to take longer but Jayne hurried them out of the diagnostic room. In any case the Feds were already waiting for them, in hiding, as prearranged. They didn't just happen to show up at the right time, which it sounds like you're saying.
2) After leaving the diagnostic room, Simon specifically said: "You should have let me know when the plan changed." Because Jayne DID change the route. Furthermore, that's how Mal was able to figure out what Jayne did.
That entire area they were going through after they escaped- from where they were captured to were Mal found them- is "the back".
I've just watched the tape AGAIN, this minute, to confirm what I'm saying.
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Quote:We're talking abou the same thing here, you're just not reading what I said right...
What??? Are you watching the same show? Because I've rewatched it three times since last night (trying to pick up quotes) and your description of what happened when they left the diagnostic room is completely wrong!
Quote:Right. Jayne wanted to get them out quicker. That's why I said it looks like this is when he's already un-betrayed them; there's no reason for him to be in a rush like that if he knows the officers are waiting for them anyway, or if they're coming to get them in the scanning room. Then he could just wait for them, or stick to the original plan and wait until Simon was finished to deliver them. Suddenly changing plans and being in a big hurry only makes sense if he's hoping to slip past the guards before they're in position. But he wasn't able to rush Simon out quick enough, so it didn't work.
They didn't get caught because they took too long. Simon wanted to take longer but Jayne hurried them out of the diagnostic room.
Quote:Listen to yourself there; he said "plan". A plan includes timing. That's all that changed. Simon wasn't complaining about the route, only how little time he'd gotten. That's the only thing he specified. The two of them had no argument about which way to go at this point.
After leaving the diagnostic room, Simon specifically said: "You should have let me know when the plan changed." Because Jayne DID change the route.
And think about why Jayne would even want them to go out the back at all anyway; he wouldn't have arrangd a meeting with the officers in a specific location that was OFF of the planned route and therefor likely to arouse Simon's suspicion; he would have had them wait right where they were going to be anyway according to Simon's plan, or had them come to where they were sitting still in the scanner room.
Quote:Like I said, after they'd been caught and then escaped, they had to turn "back" because River ran that way while Jayne and Simon were trying to settle which way they should go. Jayne wanted to go out the way they'd come in, which was the front. Mal, meanwhile, knew that they were running away in an unplanned direction for one possible reason: because things hadn't gone smooth, and so he surmised that a betrayal by Jayne was the reason things hadn't gone smooth.
Furthermore, that's how Mal was able to figure out what Jayne did.
That entire area they were going through after they escaped- from where they were captured to were Mal found them- is "the back".
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