The Great Jayne Debate!
POSTED BY: kef
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 4, 2002 17:05
VIEWED: 37090
PAGE 2 of 14
Quote:
Originally posted by Shiney:
My impression was that he wanted to minimize the chance of running into Mal and Zoe. Forcing Simon & River to leave earlier than planned would (in his mind) give Jayne time to sell S & R out to the Feds, collect his reward, and come up with some story/excuse before meeting back up with the others.
Thats just what I thought happened. I think he wanted to get the reward but at the same time he wanted to remain apart of Serenity's crew.
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I want to further clarify my thoughts about River's rant. The three of them are sitting there, and Jayne tells Simon to shut up because he needs to think. A few moments later River says, "They took away Christmas . . . "
What I think is happening is that River is reading Jayne's SUBCONCIOUS mind. She's getting an emotional impression of what Jayne is feeling subconciously, and interpreting it the best way she can.
This possibly fits in with what Simon said in the diagnostic room about how her brain is working now, since they stripped her amygdala. - "She feels everything. She can't not."
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I think Jayne made contact with the alliance after River stabbed him (for fashion? "you'd look better in red" I think it was?)
Then we find out he's betraying them via the card-swipey-screen thing...(sorry, I'm not technical) and as soon as we know what he's up to, he starts showing doubts about going through with it.
The tension all this created was wonderful, I really thought that Jayne was a goner.
However, I don't think he was going to back down. He was feeling kinda bad, but went through with it anyway.
You Jayne lovers...you've all seen "My Bodyguard", right?
just call me...amygdala
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Two things to say:
First - Jayne is anout as mercenary as as any man could be. Just watch "Jaynestown" and see how he sold out his first (?) partner to four years locked in a small box.
Second - He is a thief and possibly a habitual liar. It doesn't seem to me that he cares for anyone else but himself.
With that said, I have to say that it is highly unlikely that he had any second thoughts about turning in Simon and River. He might have felt some remorse over it, but to me Jayne is the perfect example of that old saying "No honor among thieves"....
What I find interesting is how Mal seemed ready to have Jayne sucked out the airlock up until the point that Jayne asked Mal to come up with a story to cover his betrayal. With this statement Jayne actually becomes more human - he doesn't want the others to have negative feelings for him after he dies. Jaybe is not smart, and he does not seem to care for anyone on Serenity except himself, but here he shows that he is not totally incapable of some basic human emotion. I liked how Mal was able to read something in those "last words" and see some possibility of redemption. Besides that, who else are you going to get to do the crappy jobs (hanging out of cargo doors, jumping onto moving trains, killing people, etc.).
The Whiskey Messiah
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Agree with WhiskeyMessiah.
Also, here's a word. The unword "unbetray" is making me climb the wall. Found this, never knew it before: "tergiversate," to change one's mind or allegiance. Since this is a bulletin board we won't have to worry about pronouncing it, thank the gods. Roget lists nouns as tergiversation; reversal; about-face, volte-face (626.1).
As I said earlier, Jayne didn't care about what he did. He cared that he didn't get the money, that Simon misinterpreted his actions, that mal caught him out. He wasn't sorry about what he did; he was sorry he got caught.
As for asking Mal to make something up about why Jayne died: Jayne was cowering as he faced death; he was cringing.
m.
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"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL
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Well, many of you seem to be applying your own assumptions to Jayne. In the end though, the character isn't defined by what you think the character is, but rather by that characters actions. And the question still remains, why Jayne chose the moment of discovering the extent of River's injuries to suddenly decide that it was time to leave. The only way your assumptions work is if you dismiss this fact. As a scientist, in my line of work one would be remiss to haphazardly dismiss even the smallest detail. I have also found that a similar line of thinking is very helpful in analysis of good literature. So I guess the question must come down to how much faith you have in the writers to describe the actions of the characters. Some past episodes, I believe, suggest that one should not underestimate them.
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In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Evans:
Also, here's a word. The unword "unbetray" is making me climb the wall. Found this, never knew it before: "tergiversate," to change one's mind or allegiance. Since this is a bulletin board we won't have to worry about pronouncing it, thank the gods. Roget lists nouns as tergiversation; reversal; about-face, volte-face (626.1).
Like (and knew) the word. BUT... I like un-betray better right now - it's more to the point, and a lot more fun...
I like everyone's arguments about Jayne, and I in fact agree with most. I do agree that Jayne is as mercenary as they come. BUT... he isn't without human decency and feeling. My evidence?
1. He acknowledges that Simon came up with a good plan. Didn't have too, could simply keep that thought to himself. But he found something to respect, and respected it.
2. Jaynestown - confronted with people practically worshipping him, he tried to dissuade them from the practice. Good mercenary behavior would have been to make some money from this turn of events.
3. Confronted with a kid losing his life for his sake, he is shaken a bit...
4. Again he shows a little bit of awe over Simon's doctoring skill.
5. When he dumped one partner to join Mal, he didn't kill the guy, he shot him in the leg. Might have been cleaner to kill the guy (this one, of course, could be a simple case of not wanting Mal to back out of the deal).
My point is that we've seen enough of Jayne to know that he is coarse, but his humanity is intact. It isn't a stretch to realize that turning over even creepy people like River and Simon to people who could do what the Alliance did to River is going too far, even for Jayne. To have turned them over (in face of what Jayne learned about the Alliance enroute to the betrayal) would have been just as beyond Jayne as it would have been for Jayne to have killed his partner to sign up with Mal, or for him to have made a bit of money out of the townspeople mistaken interpretation of events.
All of this, of course, is my humble opinion...
QT
QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006
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I respect your well-considered opinion.
Quote:
1. He acknowledges that Simon came up with a good plan
He may also have been trying to mislead Mal. He had already made arrangements with the Feds (I love that - "the Feds").
Quote:
2. Jaynestown - confronted with people practically worshipping him, he tried to dissuade them
I think that at first he wanted them NOT to call attention to him, he didn't want to get pinched by the Man on that eerie-ass day.
Quote:
3. Confronted with a kid losing his life for his sake, he is shaken a bit...
Yes, and thoroughly confused. It isn't what he would have done, ever (he thinks?)
Quote:
4. Again he shows a little bit of awe over Simon's doctoring skill.
Yes. Maybe. Again, a complex brute. What IS he thinking?
Quote:
5. When he dumped one partner to join Mal, he didn't kill the guy, he shot him in the leg.
Gotta keep the guy alive, in case the deal with Mal doesn't work out.
I sure have enjoyed your post.
m.
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"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL
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Quote:
Originally posted by Corrielle:
One thought on Jayne wanting to get them out early. If he IS going to turn them in, and I think he is, he's going to need to avoid having the captain come looking for them. So, he wants to have the Tams all nice and captured before everyone was supposed to rendesvous.
Here's another idea: Jayne changes his mind in the diagnostic room. He tries to hustle Simon and River out early in order to avoid the Feds who are on their way. Unfortunately he's not fast enough and they get caught in the stairwell.
Radegund
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i have been thinking of Jayne's motive for turning simon and river in for a couple of days now and i don't think that money was his primary reason. After watching the last scene of ariel and the previous eps I think that Jayne really thought he was doing the crew(and more importantly himself, don't mean to make him look un-selfish) a favor by turning them in.
He states in the opening of ariel and in safe that life would be easier for them all without the "two most wanted on board".
At the end of Ariel he says "its not like i betrayed you" or something to that effect. It seems to me that he thought he was helping the crew wether they wanted to be or not.
So yeah anyway i think he really thought that he was just betraying the sibs and that money was really just a bonus for being rid of them.
As for "un-betraying" them I fall into the "he didn't un-betray them" category. Although he def felt remorse after seeing what they did to River.
-Docebo
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