The Great Jayne Debate!

POSTED BY: kef
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 4, 2002 17:05
VIEWED: 37090
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KEF

Monday, November 18, 2002 9:51 PM

Ok, a new thread here to continue with the debate that began in the "ARIEL" thread (which I can't find at the moment.)

Basically this:

SOME people who saw "Ariel" believe that Jayne changed his mind about turning in River and Simon while they were in the diagnostic room. He then tried to hurry them out the back way before the Feds showed up, but they got caught anyway. (Those of you subscribing to this theory please correct anything I got wrong, and/or elaborate.)

OTHER people who watched "Ariel" (myself included) did not think that Jayne changed his mind in the in the diagnostic room. Instead he continued to lead R & S to where the Feds were waiting.

I'll start the debate by recapping two points I made in an earlier post:

1) While they were in custody, River went into her "They took Christmas away . . . nothing left but coal." rant. It would seem that she's talking about Jayne - referring to to the fact that Jayne lost his reward because the Fed officer stole it from him by doublecrossing him. This doesn't work if Jayne had already decided to forego the reward before they were captured. On the other hand, she could be referring to the Fed guy, who wasn't going to be getting the reward either. Except that we wasn't going to just lose it and be left with "coal" - he was going to be killed. Plus River is talking in the past tense- about something that's already happened. So it doesn't quite fit unless she was referring to Jayne. (And don't tell me she was just talking gibberish!)

2) If Jayne HAD changed his mind in the diagnostic room, then I think it robs a bit of the powerfulness from the final scene between him and Mal. And it's here at this point that I see, in Jayne's face, the change take place inside him. I didn't see that in the exam room.

I've watched the tape NUMEROUS times now, and both interpretations of the events have merit.

We've got three weeks to kill here people until the next episode - let's have at it!

Seriously, I'm finding this VERY intriguing. I'd really like to hear what people have to say.

EVANS

Monday, November 18, 2002 10:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
1) While they were in custody, River went into her "They took Christmas away . . . nothing left but coal." rant.

I read an interesting speculation on another board, that river was describing events in Jayne's childhood, which is what freaked him out. I think it's interesting and may fit, because aside from popping out with the word "pretentious" in Shindig, Jayne is not particularly insightful.

Quote:
2) If Jayne HAD changed his mind in the diagnostic room, then I think it robs a bit of the powerfulness from the final scene between him and Mal.

Agree.

m.

------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL

DELVO

Monday, November 18, 2002 10:16 PM

AAAKHCK! Just when I thought you'd gotten it, Kef!

When they left the diagnostic room, Simon didn't say a word about the route being changed, only the timing. And Jayne later commented that he wanted to go out the front because they already knew that way, and could get lost going out the back. (They only ended up going out the back way because of River running off.)

This means Jayne was taking them out the front, as planned. He was just doing it earlier than planned.

About River's ramblings. they're like prophecies; you can make sense of them later on, maybe... or you can never figure it out... or there will come a time when they make sense, but not yet... or there are bound to be several different ways to interpret any one of them that are equally valid yet equally imaginative and evidentially baseless. Her babble, therefor, along with any particular interpretatin of it, is not evidence of outside things; rather, outside things are necessary to shed light on it. It's sort of like the principle in science that no idea, no matter how good it seemed, trumps direct observation; ideas have to be fitted to the observations. We have to interpret her lines in light of other events, not say that other events were one thing or another because her lines supposedly say so.

And I still love the last scene in my version, because Mal must know (even though he didn't say it) that Jayne unbetrayed them and that's why he was running with them, which would explain why he let Jayne live... and because, rather than dulling Jayne's behavior in that final scene, this just means that the final scene just casts his earlier behavior in a new light (some of which reflects back).

And I didn't need retrospect from later scenes to see Jayne rushing them out early to escape. I just needed that to explain my case here. To me, it was obvious from two things about the rushing-out-of-the-room scene all along. One is Jayne's behavior; he is clearly rushing, even to himself, like he's worried about something. The other is the simple fact that if Jayne's already planned for the Tams to be picked up, he can just wait for it to happen; he doesn't need to change plans unless he's changed his objectives.

QUEENTIYE

Monday, November 18, 2002 10:34 PM

I've been reading this debate and I'm finally ready to chime in and say "I agree with Delvo"...

Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo:
When they left the diagnostic room, Simon didn't say a word about the route being changed, only the timing. And Jayne later commented that he wanted to go out the front because they already knew that way, and could get lost going out the back. (They only ended up going out the back way because of River running off.)

Correct.

Quote:
This means Jayne was taking them out the front, as planned. He was just doing it earlier than planned.

Correct again.

Quote:
About River's ramblings. they're like prophecies; you can make sense of them later on, maybe... or you can never figure it out... or there will come a time when they make sense, but not yet... or there are bound to be several different ways to interpret any one of them that are equally valid yet equally imaginative and evidentially baseless. Her babble, therefor, along with any particular interpretatin of it, is not evidence of outside things; rather, outside things are necessary to shed light on it. It's sort of like the principle in science that no idea, no matter how good it seemed, trumps direct observation; ideas have to be fitted to the observations. We have to interpret her lines in light of other events, not say that other events were one thing or another because her lines supposedly say so.

Um...o.k. but I think it's just as easy to acknowledge the Christmas thing as meaning what we already think it means - Jayne doesn't get the reward. The fact that "they took away Christmas" is a very interesting statement... I personally (in light of believing that Jayne "unbetrayed" Simon & River) think that that statement refers not to them NOT giving Jayne the reward, but them making it no fun to betray the Tams in the first place. The fun is what got taken away - the coal in place of toys is symbolic of that. Jayne couldn't have enjoyed that reward no matter what, and River called him on it (and it freaked him out, because you don't have to be so insightful to know truth when it's spoken to you).

Quote:
And I still love the last scene in my version, because Mal must know (even though he didn't say it) that Jayne unbetrayed them and that's why he was running with them, which would explain why he let Jayne live... and because, rather than dulling Jayne's behavior in that final scene, this just means that the final scene just casts his earlier behavior in a new light (some of which reflects back).

I don't know if Mal knows that Jayne unbetrayed them. He doesn't have to know. The initial betrayal is bad enough that being sorry for it later doesn't make up for it. So,both Mal's behavior (even if he DOESN'T know that Jayne unbetrayed the Tams), and Jayne's (who does know that he changed his mind, but can't unknow that he set up the betrayal in the first place) make sense in the final scene. AND... this interpretation has the benefit of explaining Jayne crossing his heart and all of that swearing that he did no wrong... he was trying to forget that the first sin wasn't obliterated by his subsequent change of heart...

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

KEF

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 12:24 AM

Cool, Delvo! You've stated your case admirably.

It's not a question of "getting it" though . . . this is like a courtroom trial, where the two sides use the same pool of facts to argue two differing versions of the same event.

So far you've failed to convince me "beyond the shadow of a doubt", as they say.

I strongly disagree with you about River. From what I've seen in these episodes, the things River says ARE suposed to have meaning. I believe the show's writers intend most of them to have immediate meaning. They aren't baseless, or to be maybe interpreted at some later time.

There still seems to be a world of confusion on one or both of our parts about this front/back thing.

"Jayne later commented that he wanted to go out the front" is inaccurate. The fight between Jayne, Simon and the guards takes place in a holding cell. When the guards have been overpowered, they come out of the cell. Jayne turns one way, R & S the other. Simon asks "Where are you going?" Jayne replies "Going out the way we came in." In other words, back through the room where they originally sat handcuffed with the Fed officer who doublecrossed Jayne.

This means Jayne was taking them out the front, as planned. He was just doing it earlier than planned. Wrong! Jayne stated in the diagnostic room that he was taking them out back. (See quotes further down.)

The fact that Jayne appears worried about something as he's rushing them from the diagnostic room can be explained by the fact that Jayne is always nervous when he's around Feds. As has been stated in earlier episodes. ("This place gives me an uncomfortableness.") To me he looked worried from the moment they entered the hospital.

Side note: I love the bit when they wheeled the "bodies" into the hospital, expecting to be questioned, and the nurse just waves them through. But Jayne just has to say his line anyway, after going to all that trouble memorizing it!

I also love that look of sisterly pride on River's face after watching Simon save that patient.

"if Jayne's already planned for the Tams to be picked up" -There's no indication (beyond how it would fit well into our respective theories) as to whether the Feds were coming to get the Tams, or whether Jayne was supposed to lead the Tams to the Feds. Neither of us can claim this point.

Looking at the diagnostic room scene again . . . after Simon finishes explaining what he's discovered about River's brain, Jayne says "Well that's fascinating. Let's get moving." Simon says, "We still have 20 minutes." Jayne: "Wrong. Plan changed when you were out. We're meetin' out the back way in five." To me, as I listen to the tape, Jayne doesn't sound like like someone who just made a major decision a few moments earlier not to turn in the Tams after all.

The only thing I definitely CAN'T explain is why he wanted to get them out earlier than planned, You have me on that one!

This is good! I'm enjoying this, I hope you are too.

Anyone else, you're welcome to weigh in on either side . . .

SHINEY

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 12:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
The only thing I definitely CAN'T explain is why he wanted to get them out earlier than planned

My impression was that he wanted to minimize the chance of running into Mal and Zoe. Forcing Simon & River to leave earlier than planned would (in his mind) give Jayne time to sell S & R out to the Feds, collect his reward, and come up with some story/excuse before meeting back up with the others.

KEF

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 12:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by QueenTiye:
Um...o.k. but I think it's just as easy to acknowledge the Christmas thing as meaning what we already think it means - Jayne doesn't get the reward. The fact that "they took away Christmas" is a very interesting statement... I personally (in light of believing that Jayne "unbetrayed" Simon & River) think that that statement refers not to them NOT giving Jayne the reward, but them making it no fun to betray the Tams in the first place. The fun is what got taken away - the coal in place of toys is symbolic of that. Jayne couldn't have enjoyed that reward no matter what, and River called him on it (and it freaked him out, because you don't have to be so insightful to know truth when it's spoken to you).

Oooo, interesting! Yeah, that would definitely work, in the "unbetrayal" theory.

Yup, you could see Jayne was freaking when realized River was talking about him.

Quote:
... this interpretation has the benefit of explaining Jayne crossing his heart and all of that swearing that he did no wrong... he was trying to forget that the first sin wasn't obliterated by his subsequent change of heart...

Hmmm . . .

CORRIELLE

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:08 AM

I believe I come down on the side of Jayne never changing his mind. While watching the episode for the first time, I was really hoping that he'd done just that, but the way that the Feds caught up with them was just too convinient. He may have felt bad about it, but I don't think he ever changed his mind.

One thought on Jayne wanting to get them out early. If he IS going to turn them in, and I think he is, he's going to need to avoid having the captain come looking for them. So, he wants to have the Tams all nice and captured before everyone was supposed to rendesvous. (did I spell that right? probably not.) Also, I tend to take anything Jayne says to Simon about why he's doing things with a grain of salt. I mean, Jayne had to say SOMETHING to get them to leave early, didn't he?

Just a note: That above paragraph made a lot more sense in my head. Shoot holes in it all you like... I won't mind.

KEF

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Corrielle:
Just a note: That above paragraph made a lot more sense in my head. Shoot holes in it all you like... I won't mind.

No, it's fine. You and Shiney answered the one question I couldn't. Thanks!

GAHERIS

Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:18 AM

I will have to put a second to QueenTiye's idea. Tentative second but there it is. I believe Jayne STARTED having second thoughts about turning in the Tams during the diagnostics. He's shows an unusual interest in what happened to River and in the Station it could be interpreted the way QueenTiye said (The reward not being fun). However I think after the diagnostics Jayne still wants to turn the Tams in... after all he takes them out the back and says "Change of plans" to Simon. He only completely unbetrays the Tams after it's clear he won't be getting out of the predicament without his own efforts.

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