Authoritarian LEADERS/Social Dominants/Both (Now with Colors and Fonts!)

POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Sunday, April 6, 2025 22:29
VIEWED: 4611
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NIKI2

Friday, September 4, 2009 8:22 PM

This is a continuation of the original "Authoritarians" thread I posted, and references same in places--so if you weren't in that thread, it might confuse you. The book is at http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/ , this part pertains to the two chapters on the mentality of leaders, rather than followers. Again, since copied from the book, I may have made mistakes and there are probably numbers from "notes" I missed deleting.

I got to this part of the book and found it also most interesting, and wanted to see what others here thought. Authoritarian LEADERS, according to the author, are usually a combination of RWA and "Social Dominants". Apparently scales for RWA don't necessarily expose RWA LEADERS, but do when combined with Social Dominance scales. Here's some of it:

Social Dominants v. Authoritarians Remember those “group cohesiveness” items in chapter 3, such as, “For any group to succeed, all its members have to give it their complete loyalty.” We saw that authoritarian followers endorse such sentiments. But social dominators do not. Oh sure, they want their followers to be super loyal to the group they lead. But they themselves are not really in it so much for the group or its cause, but more for themselves. It’s all about them, not about a higher purpose. If trouble arises, don’t be surprised if they start playing “Every man for himself,” and even sell out the group to save their own skin.

Empathy. Here’s an easy one. How empathetic, how compassionate do you think dominators are? Not very, right? You got it, for they agree with statements such as “I don’t spend a lot of time feeling sorry for people less fortunate than me,” and “I have a ‘tough’ attitude toward people having difficulty: ‘That’s their problem, not mine.’” And they disagree with, “I feel very sorry for people who are treated unfairly” and “I have a lot of compassion for people who have gotten the bad breaks in life.”

Religion. High RWAs, we know, strongly tend to be religious fundamentalists. Social dominators do not. In fact, like most people in my samples, most dominators only go to church for marrying and burying. This would be “Three strikes and ye’re out” as far as the religiously ethnocentric high RWAs are concerned except for one thing. Dominators can easily pretend to be religious, saying the right words and claiming a deep personal belief and, as we saw in chapter 3, gullible right-wing authoritarians will go out on almost any limb, walk almost any plank to believe them.

Some non-religious dominators, as part of the act, do go to church regularly, for manipulative reasons. This amounts to lying, but I hope you don’t think social dominators would never, ever, ever, tell a lie.

Social dominators admit, anonymously, to striving to manipulate others, and to being dishonest, two-faced, treacherous, and amoral. It’s as if someone took the Scout Law (“A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, ...”) and turned it completely upside down: “A ‘winner’ is deceitful, manipulative, unfair, base, conniving, ...” Furthermore, while the 168 followers may feel admiration bordering on adoration of their leaders, we should not be surprised if the leaders feel a certain contempt for their followers. They are the suckers, the “marks,” the fools social dominators find it so easy to manipulate.

Roots of hostility. Another difference between authoritarian leaders and followers comes into view when you untangle the roots of their hostility. Social dominators show greater prejudice against minorities and women than high RWAs do, but the followers are much more hostile toward homosexuals. Why should this be the case? As we saw in chapter 2, high RWAs are especially likely to aggress when they feel established authority approves of the aggression, when they are afraid, and because they are self-righteous. Since the Bible condemns homosexuality in several places, and “giving” rights to homosexuals seems to right-wing authoritarians yet another nail in the coffin of moral society, aggression against h

NIKI2

Saturday, September 5, 2009 4:01 PM

Nobody wants to dive into this one, eh? Chickens...

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

CANTTAKESKY

Saturday, September 5, 2009 4:13 PM

I don't think anyone's read it.

ANTHONYT

Saturday, September 5, 2009 4:19 PM

Hello,

If I might comment without having read the book...

"Global Change Game"

Sounds like a lot of fun. I played with a game on the computer called Geo Political Simulator a while back. Not a perfect program, but fun.

What were the parameters and rules of this game, and can we simulate it here on RWED? That would be a hoot.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NIKI2

Saturday, September 5, 2009 4:45 PM

He didn't go into great detail about the parameters of the game. I could give you the basics--will try to, but gotta go walk the dogs right now...sigh...

I agree it would be fun, but I don't think it would translate to a forum; private deals were made, and if all could read all, what any one "area" was doing would be available to all, like internal discussions, debates, decisions. Don't think it would work, but I wish we COULD play it, would be fascinating!

And yeah, I know, it's a lot to wade through--should have made it two posts; one on "leaders", one on the game. Still might not have worked, tho'. Ah, well...

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

ANTHONYT

Saturday, September 5, 2009 4:51 PM

Hello,

Private deals could be handled through emails or other forms of private messages, copied to the referee or moderator.

The game itself is very important, because the rules will affect behavior to an extraordinary extent.

Man, now I'm all psyched for an RWED forum political simulation.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

ANTHONYT

Saturday, September 5, 2009 5:02 PM

Hello,

More on topic with what you wanted to discuss, probably...

"He’s quite willing to let the children of the rich get rich merely through inheritance. It doesn’t bother the social dominator that masses of people are poor."

Where would I fall, if I were quite willing to let the children of the rich get rich merely through inheritance, but it did bother me that masses of people are poor?

For instance, I believe that one of the goals of a parent is to create a superior starting point for their children. An advantage that they lacked. I also like the idea that any wealth I produce will not die with me, but be passed on to my inheritors. It will benefit my children and grandchildren long after I am gone, hopefully. Even if all I leave behind is a house in decent repair and an old reliable automobile, it will be quite a boon to my children, who can utilize those assets to get a head start that I didn't get. Not having to purchase a 200k dollar house or a 10k dollar car is quite a leg up, in my opinion.

Meanwhile, I am bothered by masses of impoverished people who struggle to provide the basic essentials. But how bothered am I? I'm not bothered enough to rob my neighbor's bank accounts in order to give his money to the poor. I figure it's his decision what to do with his money, and mine what to do with mine. When the situation bothers either of us, we are free to donate whatever we wish to spare. So how does that class me?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

KWICKO

Saturday, September 5, 2009 5:34 PM

Quote:

Meanwhile, I am bothered by masses of impoverished people who struggle to provide the basic essentials. But how bothered am I? I'm not bothered enough to rob my neighbor's bank accounts in order to give his money to the poor.

Exactly. I'm bothered, but not enough to give up MY home, MY car, MY groceries. I'll take the homeless some food, but I won't take them ALL my food.

In that, I suppose I'm no better than most "christians" who drive their shiny new cars to their shiny new megachurch, then drive home to their shiny new house afterwards. Christ never had any of these things, and I doubt any of these "christians" are willing to give them up to share the wealth with the poor. So I'm no better than they are; but I'm no worse, either. :)

Mike

NIKI2

Saturday, September 5, 2009 10:29 PM

Quote:
For instance, I believe that one of the goals of a parent is to create a superior starting point for their children.

There's a middle ground to what both of you wrote. I contribute to numerous causes, but I have enough to care for myself as well.

If I had kids I'd like to give them a leg up, too--and Jim is doing so in his will for his son, whereas his daughter married a guy with money, so she doesn't need from us. But if I had a LOT, I wouldn't want to leave it all to my kids; it's a fine point between leaving kids a leg up and leaving them so much they don't have to do anything; that doesn't make for good humans, a lot of the time.

Since I can't know when I'm going to die, I wouldn't want to deprive myself too much to give to others; but after I'm gone, I'd have no problem with it going to help others. And I BELIEVE, from what little I know, that inheritance tax is incremental? That the more you leave, the more they take out...yes? That works for me.

So I'm all in favor of a middle ground. What I give to causes, I would probably waste on things I don't need but "want" at the moment. It leaves me enough to buy some of the things I want, and it helps others at the same time.

Different points of view is all. I believe I'm part of a global village and have responsibility to the earth itself; that's big for me. Owning things isn't, nor is luxury; we live pretty simple but don't mind it much (tho' living in Marin gets harder every year, admittedly, but we've managed to pay off our house so it makes it easier).

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

ANTHONYT

Sunday, September 6, 2009 9:52 AM

"And I BELIEVE, from what little I know, that inheritance tax is incremental? That the more you leave, the more they take out...yes? That works for me."

Hello,

I'm not at all opposed to you giving away your money to your kids, your favorite charity, or giving it to the government when you die. I think that is a very personal decision.

However, just as I wouldn't want to make that decision on your behalf, I wouldn't want anyone else to make it for me. All the money I have has already been taxed. Taxing it again when I die seems like so much thievery and grave robbing.

No... it disturbs me when people enact a policy that robs from other people. I'm not really concerned about the fine intentions behind it. Someone can ask me for a buck to get a cheeseburger, and it's my choice to surrender that buck or not...

...but I don't want them taking it by force. That seems immoral.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

NIKI2

Sunday, September 6, 2009 4:58 PM

Heavens, aren't all taxes taken "by force"? Ooops, maybe you believe that there should be no taxes, I know some here have advocated that.

I don't mind inheritance taxes because, c'mon now, you TRULY don't see the rich as leaving their "excess" money to the government voluntarily, do you?

Just my opinion, but I think an awful lot of people who get uber wealthy these days did so by means that don't entitle them to be as rich as they are...I got no problem taking it from them when they're gone, or even before that to a degree.

The gap between rich and poor has widened enormously in America thanx to the last eight years gimmes--not that it didn't start before that. Trying to lessen it, now that the past administration's cronyism is (mostly) over or being made (somewhat) less doesn't bother me in the slightest. It infuriates me that so many have gotten so rich off Dumbya's administration's robbery; so call me prejudiced.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

ANTHONYT

Sunday, September 6, 2009 5:11 PM

Hello,

All taxes and all laws are taken and enforced 'by force' and so I like to minimize the existence of both as much as possible. I am not an anarchist. I do want some public services, but I generally analyze each law and tax with the statement, "Is there any way society could function if this were eliminated?"

Now, I find it disturbing that your innate assumption is that anyone who is wealthy probably did something improper and so doesn't deserve their money.

That's a rather awful default position. It is no different than me saying, "Anyone who is poor probably did something stupid and so doesn't deserve more money."

I am also infuriated by those who become rich via illegal or immoral processes, but I don't feel that righteous anger over those assholes means I can start robbing the rich wholesale in order to even the scales of 'justice.'

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, September 6, 2009 5:25 PM

Okay, long post, sorry.

At risk of offending...

1. Lulu is a vanity press, ergo, the audience tends to know the writer. MSM may lack credibility, but something on lulu has no more objective credibility that something posted on FFF RWED.

I welcome any challenge to orthodoxy that's *more* coherent than accepted dogma, rather than less. This one falls far short. Our author may have something to contribute, but is not the definitive work. I'm sorry, this is an excellent test case in what *not* to do when writing. Our writer has a preconceived set of beliefs and set out to prove himself correct, at which people always succeed.

Some beliefs stated border on the absurd:

1. Universal Equality (UE) is the opposite of authoritarianism. Preservation of a Way of Life is not a motive.(PWL)

2. Authoritarian regimes are based on racism and fundamentalism, and the two are connected.

3. Right wing has some connection to authoritarians, and that stating a partisan bias will help your credibility.

4. Understanding psychology doesn't rely on any studies or confirmed real world trends.

5. Oppressors are racists, and think "muahahahah were evil," rather than that they believe in some greater good.

6. The opposite of UE is "bigotry" not PWL. UE societies cannot be bigotted, and so something like this would never happen: Negroes shall be counted as 2/3 [human] and Indians shall not be counted at all (sumtin like that) following "all men are created equal."

7. Prediction that authoritarian societies are ruled by right wing religious fundamentalists, which is just not what we see in reality.

8. A brain trust think tank is sound data. Self doubt is also not necessary when making random guesses about human behaviour.

This is just amateurish psychology that doesn't have a close connection to how people actually work.

Specific to Nik's post: I don't think that it's credible to site the motivations of the Argentine puppet regime as being at all internal to Argentina. Even the Brits admit that they pretty much handed policy decisions to the Argentines carte blanche.

Reality disconnect:

Quote:
Chapter 5
Suppose you were applying for a leadership position in a right-wing
religious/political movement--a movement hell-bent on gaining total power so it could
impose its beliefs and rules of conduct on everyone forever. (I realize this may not be
your No. 1 career choice, but work with me a bit here.) As part of your application
you’re asked to take an aptitude test. Indicate whether you dislike, or favor, the
sentiments below on a -4 to +4 basis.
This country would be better off if we cared less about how equal all people are.
Some groups of people are simply not the equals of others.
Some people are just more worthy than others.

I hope that anyone with such high ideals will accept the right or religious fundamentalists in their dominance over intellectuals, as the former surely outnumbers the latter. I'm the hold such groups in high esteem, and consider, as evident through, that right wingers are their equals.

Anyone remember the cell phone beehive experiment? Just because you can prove that microwaves can kill bees doesn't mean the bees are dying from radiation. (The bees were dying of mites.)

This is that sort of logic.

re: GW Bush. Even if it's fairly evident that the author started at Bush, jumped to Nazis, who, for some reason, he thought were right wing, and then decided this was about racism: There's really no racism in Bush, as much as I have serious issues with this administration. It's like his total lack of marital infidelity, or his not personally profiting from his regime. There are just curious personal flaws that Bush doesn't happen to possess. When Bush said "Obama probably won in part because of me" he meant that it was his own unpopularity that pushed a democratic victory. What he doesn't realize is that, by appointing both the first, and second, black secretaries of state, Bush prepared America to accept black leadership. So yes, in a

NIKI2

Sunday, September 6, 2009 6:14 PM

Hmmm, interesting. Dunno if it's 'cuz it's morning, but I'm having trouble grasping some of what you wrote. But:

1. I'm not quite clear what you're saying. I DO believe UE is--not the opposite of, but more often unacceptable to--authoritarianism, in that UE is INCLUSIVE, not exclusive. The second part I don't get.

2. Authoritarian THINKING does connect to racism and fundamentalism, I think; both are exclusive of "other", and aggressively so.

3. I don't think he was stating a partisan bias to increase his credibility, but rather to acknowledge he has a bias. He also, many times, added caveats like everyone has this or that to a degree, and that left-wing can be authoritarian as well.

4. "Understanding psychology doesn't rely on any studies or confirmed real world trends". If you're intimating that is what the author says, it's definitely not. He cites studies, did experiments of his own, and connected it to real-world trends.

5. I don't think SOCIAL DOMINATORS generally believe in the greater good, and it's not about thinking they're evil, it's about attaining power and having few if any scruples about doing so. People like that don't think they're evil, just right. Big difference between "oppressors" and authoritarian social dominators, too, tho' the latter usually turn out to be the former.

6. I don't think he said a UE society was the opposite of a PWL at all, but that authoritarianism doesn't make for a UE society. But if you're citing the US, I don't think we began as a UE society, and again, it's the degree of aggression, not the specifics mentality. As to whether we were, or even are today, a UE society is a whole different discussion; I don't think we are or ever were.

7. He was talking about America today, and it would appear the Bush Administration, in noting Bush as a RWE Social Dominant, fits. I don't think he was predicting specifically what you said.

8. Don't think he was stating categorically that "A brain trust think tank is sound data". Lack of self-doubt is an aspect of the opposite--being self-righteous without questioning. A brain trust can be either. I don't think he was making "random guesses", I think he ran tests to find out, and came up with theories from the conclusions.

No, he didn't jump from Bush to Nazis as both right-wing, he was citing Nazis as an example of a LEFT-wing authoritarian regime.

Dunno how Bush feels personally about race; however I believe part of his reasons for choosing people of other races to hold office was to show he WASN'T prejudice and to appeal to the left. As to "It's like his total lack of marital infidelity, or his not personally profiting from his regime."--Dunno about marital infidelity, but I'm guessing you're saying those are incorrect assumptions about Dumbya? Because his profiting from his regime is, as far as I'm concerned, unquestionable--as was the profiting of his cronies.

Confused by

Quote:
I hope that anyone with such high ideals will accept the right or religious fundamentalists in their dominance over intellectuals, as the former surely outnumbers the latter.

Are you saying religious fundamentalists should dominate because there are MORE of them? Wow--if so, boy, do we disagree!

Quote:
I'm the hold such groups in high esteem, and consider, as evident through, that right wingers are their equals.

Can't make that one out...?

I don't think it was his "unpopularity" that helped a democratic victory, I think it's what his administration DID, which yes, caused his unpopularity. But I have to disagree with his appointing black Secretaries of State as contributing even slightly. I think it has more to do with the youth vote, rejection of his policies/actions, and the turnout of dems by far. And the fact that any "regime" which swings too far in one direction will face a correction.

If you truly believe that societies SHOULD accept religious fundamentalists' dominance over intellectuals, that's so far away from what I think is reasonable that debate is impossible--aside from both the author's and

NIKI2

Sunday, September 6, 2009 6:26 PM

Anthony: You didn't read. I said "an awful lot", not "anyone"....biiiig difference. No, it is definitely NOT my inate assumption; it's what I see as true in America today, aided and abetted by the previous administration. But certainly, CERTAINLY not "anyone"!

I also think "robbing the rich wholesale" isn't what I was positing even in the slightest, nor would I agree with doing so even slightly.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

ANTHONYT

Sunday, September 6, 2009 6:40 PM

Hello,

Forgive me for saying so, but if I say that an awful lot of hispanic people are thieves and liars, I doubt anyone would give me credit for saying 'an awful lot' as opposed to 'all of them,' or credit me for the biiiig difference.

I read your statements, Niki, and detected a strong bias against the wealthy. And with advocating taxes targeted specifically at the most wealthy citizenry, robbing the rich wholesale seems spot on.

Are there alternative explanations I am overlooking?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

BYTEMITE

Sunday, September 6, 2009 6:55 PM

Robin Hood and Little John were walking through the forest, laughin' back and forth at what the other had to say. Remanisin' this and that and havin' such a good time. Ood-a-lolly ood-a-lolly golly what a day.

:) Sorry, couldn't resist.

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, September 6, 2009 11:29 PM

Nik

1. UE is often part of authoritarianism, it's often the idea. USSR for example. PWL is the conflicting ideology, but doesn't require authoritarianism, but can have it (Israel, for example.)

2. Authoritarians are often about "the greater good." That, coupled with "absolute necessity" leads to the machiavellian attitude. This isn't a radical notion, it's pretty well accepted I think.

The author of the book is proposing a radical notion in opposition to common wisdom, but doesn't support it well because he seems unaware of it.

3. His partisan bias is absurd, it is as bad as Wulf's racism or PN's antisemitism: No one will ever believe any of them. I don't personally care, all of them are entitled to their opinions, but from a communication perspective, this is a disaster. I think Mike said it best on this one.

4. I was refering to where authoritarian regimes come from: socialist think tanks.

> I don't think SOCIAL DOMINATORS generally
> believe in the greater good

5. I do understand the point, but I don't really agree. There is power motivation in many people, but behind that power motivation is a desire to use that power. I would like to see more environmental protection. If I controlled the world bank, I could use that power. This is basically the ring, but people who pursue it do so because they have a use for power, imho, not because they are wicked. At least in real world power structures.

The #1 powermonger in america right now is Barack Obama, he was a powermonger before he became president, it's why he's president. He was willing to make deals with special interests because he really wanted that power. But Obama is not a bully, he's not sinister, he really believes in his mission that he wants to do good. He has harness the US Govt, giant death machine that it is, and think he can redirect it for good (good luck with that.) But he needs that power in order to enact his agenda, in order to do what he thinks is right.

I don't, btw, have a serious problem with what he thinks is right, just the deals he had to cut to get there, which is the problem with power rings.

6. I said a UE society was the opposite of PWL. I think these are conflicting ideologies. The Amish can't exist in a state school system under communist rule. Look at how China has crushed the cultures of mainstreamed minorities, like the Soviets before them. Likewise, the Amish can't maintain their way of life if they have to subsidize the local trailer parks, which they would for there to be equality.

Quote:
Niki wrote

But if you're citing the US, I don't think we began as a UE society

Quote:
Thomas Jefferson wrote

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Quote:
I don't think we are or ever were.

Sure, but I didn't hear the argument that preservation of a way of life was the principle american value until reagan, though it could be argued that this was always a running thread, what I think almost certainly this was not responsible for american totalitarianism.

7. In 2007 it had already appeared in the Bush admin. I think this is a retro-active construction of how we got to neofascism, and it's just misguided. There's almost no difference between Bush policy and Clinton policy, just a gradual increase in reach of power, pushing the envelop as it were, but the will was always there.

8.

Quote:
Don't think he was stating categorically that "A brain trust think tank is sound data". Lack of self-doubt is an aspect of the opposite--being self-righteous without questioning. A brain trust can be either. I don't think he was making "random guesses", I think he ran tests to find out, and came up with theories from the conclusions.

Wasn't saying he was, just that the key is the end here: Came up with theories from conclusions. [the ones he was looking to find.]

I think that there is a large host of real wo

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, September 6, 2009 11:30 PM

BM

Point well taken.

GEEZER

Monday, September 7, 2009 1:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
2. Authoritarian THINKING does connect to racism and fundamentalism, I think; both are exclusive of "other", and aggressively so.

This only applies to religious/political conservative Authoritarian thinking.

For Marxist/Leftist authoritarian thinking, racism is replaced by classism. It's not the Blacks or the Jews, but the capitalists, the proletariat, the land owners, the bosses, the intelligentsia, etc.

Fundamentalism is replaced by ideology. Anyone not sufficiently pure in their ideology can be considered the enemy.

This is really convenient, because while you can't generally call a White person Black or a Fundie Christian an Atheist and make him the "other", pretty much anyone you want can be identified as a capitalist or neo-liberal at heart, or as not sufficiently ideologially pure. Then it's off to the gulag.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

DREAMTROVE

Monday, September 7, 2009 2:52 AM

This isn't partisan because I'd throw 'em both to the dogs at this point, but...

Uh oh. Geezer is too far to the left on this one:

Nazis were not the only racist left wing regime. There are many in Africa (I don't mean wulfie anti-white) I mean what we call black on black. Many leftist totalitarian groups are anti-semitic, I can't think of any right wing ones off hand, which isn't surprising: Judaism is a religion. Only in a strictly religious construct. Still, though jews were slaughtered in the crusades, that was not the intent, the intent was to slaughter muslims (hmm.) Okay, there have been a fair number of conservative western ideologies that are anti-muslim, and also liberal ones. I think the west is probably pretty anti-muslim overall.

Still, I'm not sure this holds at all. FDR's democratic party was still racist socialist. It's a long standing party position, just every once in a while it changes targets (switching in the mid-20th c. to be anti-asian, and later, anti-arab, though there's still some anti-asian)

Obama's famous The chinese will poison your children rant, and more recently, his positively Bidenesque "No more Bangalore..." playing up to the xenophobic democratic party base.

Democrats in power in the US have killed more asians than blacks, and more blacks in the last 20 years than in all of slavery (another great democratic party achievement.) Oops, sorry, forgot the indians.

Yes, but often there is class warfare in leftist totalitarian regimes, sometimes, like under Pol Pot and Mao, the line gets blurred. In africa also, at times, but at times it's appallingly clear.

Right now, the BNP is growing in britain on a platform of no more jews no more muslims, but it's a socialist-left platform, and expected to split labour's vote, which I'm so happy about, because labour will lose. :) Still, it means there's a rising xenophobic attitude in Britain, but notice that it's not coming from the Tories, they're just benefiting by default, because the BNP can't possibly win, they can only cause labour to lose.

Again, the USSR. Not racist later on, but early on it was, very: Ukraine. The major non-russian group in russia. Also, little publicized: Jews, and attempt at muslims, but it failed, and of course, I have to sympathize with the christians on this, because they never ever get sympathy: Christians. Christians just don't know how to play the victim card: they go on "thrown to the lions," or "war on christmas" but actually, there's an anti-christian genocide every ten years or so, racking up more than probably any other religion, though not %wise. (The US seems bent on making muslims the #1 victim religion...)

BYTEMITE

Monday, September 7, 2009 3:48 AM

Sorry again, Anthony, after DT's post I realized that even though it's a cute, fun song, that my post might not make sense in context, and people might think I'm just being frivolous.

Basically, I started singing that song because all the talk about robbing from the rich (and giving to the poor, that's the other half of it) reminded me of the story of Robin Hood.

I sang happily, because there are some of these rich folks who I wouldn't cry a damn tear over if they lost all their money tomorrow. I might feel bad for their employees if their employees weren't all in slave shops overseas. For that reason, where it counts, I also doubt that the loss would have much impact on the economy, apart from the stock market, which I feel is largely illusionary anyway.

But, I was also being tongue in cheek, as I realize a lot of these wealth distribution schemes really DO see themselves as justified, no matter the target, and probably do compare themselves to Robin Hood.

Have to be careful!

Mostly, I think there's gonna be an economic collapse that TPTB haven't planned for cause they only THINK they know how to drive the market. And when that happens, that's going to render all the rich versus poor stuff moot.

BYTEMITE

Monday, September 7, 2009 4:01 AM

In regards to China, I heard that there's now a worker class and the educated class that controls the jobs, the economy, the state, and etc. And the worker class is getting PISSED.

I'm actually wondering if China isn't going to have another Tiananmen Square sometime in the next two decades... Though no one in China will remember the original protests in 1989. ._.

DREAMTROVE

Monday, September 7, 2009 12:37 PM

Byte

Quote:
Have to be careful!

No, you don't. Really. If people are saying they miss RiveR6213, go back and read some posts and you'll see that you are currently in a crowd I'd say it's *impossible* to alienate.

It's possible if an FFFer killed someone, a simple "my bad" would suffice

Quote:
Mostly, I think there's gonna be an economic collapse that TPTB haven't planned for cause they only THINK they know how to drive the market. And when that happens, that's going to render all the rich versus poor stuff moot.

Well, they created the system, so they know it, IMHO the only potential flaw is people can abandon that system, which is the only thing I think they haven't counted on.

Quote:
In regards to China, I heard that there's now a worker class and the educated class that controls the jobs, the economy, the state, and etc. And the worker class is getting PISSED.

That's fairly close to accurate. Ripe for revolution. I think the people aren't out for blood though, and the commies are, so people will wait for a weak post-revolutionary regime (after the last of of the old guard is dead)

Quote:

I'm actually wondering if China isn't going to have another Tiananmen Square sometime in the next two decades... Though no one in China will remember the original protests in 1989. ._.

I believe the tagline here is:

Tonight we're going to party like it's 1989.

I always thought it would be nice if signature lined appeared differently from the text, like italic blue or something... erg no blue. Anyone know any easter eggs?

KWICKO

Monday, September 7, 2009 1:23 PM

You mean like this?

Just testing.

I always thought it would be nice if signature lined appeared differently from the text, like italic blue or something...

Font colors aren't hard - I learned how in the "Test" posts in Troll Country. Find something cool, and hit "Reply with Quote" to see what all is included in the coolness.

You can do it in different colors, too, 'til you find one you like.

Not sure how many are available. I'm guessing "mauve" or "chartreuse" aren't in the cards. I could be wrong.

Anyhow, you use the less than/greater than brackets (<,>) and in between them, you just type in (with no spaces)"font color=(insert color name)".

Try it out.

Special Thanks to AVeryFineCompanion for the tutorial.

NIKI2

Monday, September 7, 2009 4:45 PM

Anthony: If we're speaking of the "uber rich", certainly I have a bias against their POSITION, not the people themselves. Met on the street and being told they were amazingly rich, I'd have no problem with them any more than any other person.

However, "I read your statements, Niki, and detected a strong bias against the wealthy. And with advocating taxes targeted specifically at the most wealthy citizenry, robbing the rich wholesale seems spot on." I didn't advocate taxes specifically at them, I said I believe the inheritance tax is--damn, what's the word? "Scaled"--proprtionately decided, you know what I mean? I think that's appropriate. UE is the OPPOSITE of authoritarianism. I don't know of any society which has "universal equality" which is authoritarian, certainly not today.

Israel, for example is no UE, but I wouldn't call it authoritarian either.

Wow, Dream, you've left me waaaaay behind in the long-thread category. I guess you win!

Seriously, this is sooo much stuff to plow through, I don't think I'm gonna do it. I agree there are flaws in the book, but I'm gonna hold to its main tenants rather than try to keep on debating point by point.

One thing I see is your bias is pretty strong so it's hard for me to try to write in generalities and feel like I might get through. It's turned into specific LEADERS, and if I were to try and point out how some leaders fit what he posits and others don't, I'd have to get into defending people/administrations or castigating others--that's too complex for me!

I'd be disagreeing and agreeing all the way down the line. I think you're not understanding that the author was THEORIZING, aside from Bush and the Nazis and authoritarian FOLLOWERS, I'm not sure he was saying many specific "social dominator high authoritarian" REGIMES have grown big enough in history to cite. I think his main mistake was to not realize that an authoritarian regime which is as tightly defined as the way he defined it doesn't last long 99% of the time--tho' he did say that somewhere, I forget where.

The vast majority of societies don't get that authoritarian, don't fit all the categories, at least to me. I disagree wholeheartedly that the author's bias equals anything like Wulf or PN's! Equally so that authoritarianism comes from socialist think tanks!!!

Quote:
people who pursue it do so because they have a use for power, imho, not because they are wicked

. You spoke of "people". He was talking about a specific KIND of person, psychologically, someone who wants power for power's sake. Whether WE want to classify them as "wicked" or not is immaterial; in THEIR minds, the world is evil and it's every man for himself, and they want to control. Dick Cheney is a perfect example...what he truly believes I don't know, but I'm betting he believes the world is evil and he needs as much power as possible to protect himself from it, and to destroy it. It seems pretty obvious to me that he doesn't care how he gets it, OR that it's "for the good" of the American people--tho' it may be IN HIS MIND. It's a specific type of personality, which I would say is almost pathological in nature, which is willing to do ANYTHING to achieve its goal.

Quote:
The #1 powermonger in america right now is Barack Obama

Again we WHOLEHEARTEDLY disagree. Nor do I even begin to believe he is a social dominant high authoritarian! Would be too long to point out all the falacies in that theory, so I'm not gonna.

As to citing the US as a UE society, what leaders SAY doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the REALITY, so citing Jefferson is a fallacy.

I don't even GET "preservation of a way of life was the principle american value until reagan"--because he was one of the biggest proponents of PWL...?

Quote:
There's almost no difference between Bush policy and Clinton policy

That's your opinion, I disagree HEARTILY with it. In fact I find it amazing.

Quote:
You saw evidence at some point in the last 8 years that the Bush administration lifted as much as an eyelash to appeal to the

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

KWICKO

Monday, September 7, 2009 5:16 PM

Quote:
I didn't advocate taxes specifically at them, I said I believe the inheritance tax is--damn, what's the word? "Scaled"--proprtionately decided, you know what I mean?

I think the word you're looking for is "progressive".

And I think it was Rue and SignyM who got me thinking more about flat-tax proposals, and how they SOUND fair (everybody pays 12%, for instance, or a 12% sales tax on everything), but in reality they end up punishing the poor more than the rich. How so? Well, for someone making a thousand bucks a month, a 12% tax is $120 out of their pocket, every month. It ends up taking a bigger bite out of their disposable income than it would for someone like a health insurance CEO who's making $100,000,000 per year. Take away $12,000,000 of his yearly salary, and he's still going to be doing okay with $88 million to tide him over...

Which is why we're set up on a progressive income tax structure. A progressive inheritance tax system seems pretty reasonable, too. Like Anthony points out, though - that's money that you've already paid taxes on once; why tax it again?

It seems a screwy system - if I buy a house, I have to pay taxes on it. And property taxes for the property I allegedly "own". And when I SELL that property, guess what? I have to pay taxes on the money I get from selling the house, at least if I get more than I bought it for. And the new buyer has to pay taxes on it, too. Same with cars - they're taxed every single time they change hands. Does that seem right to you?

Mike

"It was already blue when we got here!"

YINYANG

Monday, September 7, 2009 5:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I always thought it would be nice if signature lined appeared differently from the text, like italic blue or something... erg no blue. Anyone know any easter eggs?

You may also change the font, if you'd like:

http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=11&t=26185#695712

Edit:

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Not sure how many are available. I'm guessing "mauve" or "chartreuse" aren't in the cards. I could be wrong.

Mauve
Chartreuse

Edited to clean things up.

KWICKO

Monday, September 7, 2009 5:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I always thought it would be nice if signature lined appeared differently from the text, like italic blue or something... erg no blue. Anyone know any easter eggs?

You may also change the font, if you'd like:

http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=11&t=26185#695712

YinYang, I love you for that! Niki and I were just in *another* Test Thread discussing that very thing. And playing with font sizes and colors, of course.

You rock.

And just because the font is handy,

SERENITY

There. I just had to say that. :)

KWICKO

Monday, September 7, 2009 6:15 PM

YY, I've got a pretty good list going on colors, just by typing in color names and seeing what happens. Where do you find the color # values that you use?

Red
Yellow
Blue
Purple
Green
Brown
Sienna
Maroon
Silver
Grey
Gold
Orange
Turquoise
Cyan
Magenta
Olive

This is pretty darned fun.

Before it's all said and done, it's going to look like Walt Disney threw up in here!

Mike

"It was already blue when we got here!"

YINYANG

Monday, September 7, 2009 6:22 PM

The Internet. This is a good place to start, though:

http://html.decobug.com/hexblack.htm

BYTEMITE

Monday, September 7, 2009 6:24 PM

Here, try some of these colours.

Scroll down and ignore the cowboys, don't think they're gonna shoot.

http://cookshangout.com/internetcolors.html

EDIT: heh, think YinYang's list is better. :)

NIKI2

Monday, September 7, 2009 9:08 PM

Let's see what happens.

Wow, it seems those "internet colors" WORK, and there's all kinds of wild colors in there.

Hee, hee, hee, both these "authoritarian" threads have devolved into "play"--which is fine with me, I think we beat 'em to death. But it's funny.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

DREAMTROVE

Monday, September 7, 2009 10:32 PM

Chartreuse sounds like fun

Looks ordinary to me. I can't see Serenity either.

NIKI2

Monday, September 7, 2009 10:42 PM

Oooo, you managed Comic Sans!!! That's my favorite font (well, next to benguiat maybe), but I couldn't get it to work! I wonder if the quote marks would work on other fonts we don't see?

Some of the fonts that don't work for me, Mike sees, and some I see, he doesn't. Go figger. But I tried Comic Sans so many times, and YOU got it!

Let's see if I can get these by adding the quote marks as you did:

Monaco
Palatino
Onyx
Rockwell

Nope, no such luck. Ah well...

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, September 8, 2009 12:29 AM

Nik

1. Sarcasm. Most of that was sarcasm, esp. the part where you said "I hope this is sarcasm." It seems you then argued with it.
2. Not so long a post, mostly quoting you. I have won by quoting my opponent alone though :)
3. I have a bias? News to me.
4. The main tenets of the book are flawed. I can't speak to it's tenants
5. Without correlation to the real world, case by case, the whole argument falls apart.
6. Did you even read my post? I said the problem was that it was all theorizing. There's a ton of fact already upon which current accepted analysis is based. Altemeyer's book opposes this, and simply fails to make the case.

Some humble suggestions:
a)Discard the ideological bias. Be very objective, let the studies speak for themselves, don't try to impose preset beliefs.
b)Try not to make grandiose claims. Stick to the particular psychological aspects of the study

I often disagree with the accepted viewpoint, I was just stating it. Personally, I think a lot of dictators are pretty boys without abnormal psyches serving masters who use psychological manipulation to secure power.

7. I'm concerned about real authoritarianism. If you propose "SDHA" is a hypothetical type of government which is NOT a major world problem, why worry?

Quote:
I disagree wholeheartedly that the author's bias equals anything like Wulf or PN's!

That was a snark at their expense. Welcome to the snark. Expect more of them. (Snarks are sarcasm.) Oh, and Wulf, PN, don't be such easy targets

Quote:
Equally so that authoritarianism comes from socialist think tanks!!!

Neocons who created the Bush admin openly admitted to being socialists:
"A Neoconservative is a socialist who supports the conservative movement" - Irving Kristol, founder of neoconservatism.
"Socialists will never get elected on their own merits"
"A neoconservative is just a socialist who was broadsided by reality."
"A social dem [later:clintonista] is a socialist who was broadsided by reality but didn't press charges."
Mr. Kristol is a funny guy. Too bad he has killed so many people.

8. Yeah, I got the "kind of people" thing, I just didn't buy the theory.
9. As I said, the underlying ideas are not without merit. He should stick to psychology until he can prove the phenomenon, and not leapfrog into geopolitical analysis.

Quote:
in THEIR minds, the world is evil and it's every man for himself, and they want to control. Dick Cheney is a perfect example..."for the good" of the American people--tho' it may be IN HIS MIND.

10. I think Dick is a career politician with a deep abiding faith in the greater good, IN HIS MIND, YES, and a very strong reliance on others. Notice that his cabinet was filled with long term political associates.He's also very deeply misguided.Outside of Rummy, I'm not sure he has "friends."

11. Obama made deals to get power which he now has, (He is President of the USA,) power which he acquired to enact (his version) of the greater good (which is hopefully closer to ours) I thought this was so obvious it barely made a mention. And no, I never said he as authoritarian, that would be absurd.

Quote:
citing Jefferson is a fallacy.

12. No, it's not. Whatever one thinks of Jefferson, that line opens our founding document. Ergo, it was the consensus viewpoint of the founders, or they'd have changed it.
13. On PWL/Reagan, that an editing error. I meant what you said: he was the major proponent.

Quote:
Quote:
There's almost no difference between Bush policy and Clinton policy

That's your opinion, I disagree HEARTILY with it. In fact I find it amazing.

14. ??? I'm surprised. I thought you followed politics.
15. Re:Clinton and racism. He's responsible for the deaths of over 8 million blacks, has frequently made racist comments, used to work in his father's whites-only store. The guy's Klan material. Hell, he's their wet dream.

Quote:
Quote:
Bush was a dumbfuck

Hoo, boy, DO we disagree!

16. No solving this one. He

KWICKO

Tuesday, September 8, 2009 1:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Oooo, you managed Comic Sans!!! That's my favorite font (well, next to benguiat maybe), but I couldn't get it to work! I wonder if the quote marks would work on other fonts we don't see?

Some of the fonts that don't work for me, Mike sees, and some I see, he doesn't. Go figger. But I tried Comic Sans so many times, and YOU got it!

Let's see if I can get these by adding the quote marks as you did:

Monaco
Palatino
Onyx
Rockwell

Nope, no such luck. Ah well...

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

See, I see 'em just fine. Monaco, Palatino, Onyx, and Rockwell, in their typefaces.

And your post is in Comic Sans, at least on MY monitor.

Your signature, however, is in dingbats, because I may have broken my settings on my Mac. The "Appearance" page font is defaulted to dingbats, and it won't let me change it. Might have to do some hacking around to see what I can clear out...

Oddly, it's ONLY your sig line that appears that way.

Mike

"It was already blue when we got here!"

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, September 8, 2009 2:30 AM

Mike,

The font I used was "Comic Sans MS" which doesn't display on Linux. The "Serenity" doesn't either, but they just revert to default. I see few fonts.

Only Palatino came through over here.

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, September 8, 2009 4:06 PM

Ironically, something came across my desk today which relates to the original topic and I consider still worth posting.

Y'all do recall me often stating that CITIVAS and Childtrauma academy research has noted actual physical construction differences in the brains of severely abused or neglected children, and that failure to acknowledge this makes treatment difficult, right ?
http://www.childtrauma.org/CTAMATERIALS/neuros~1.asp

Psychopaths have faulty brain connections
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32333480/ns/health-mental_health/

Apparently some british researchers have added some useful info on the other end, and it'd be interesting to correllate with their early experiences and see if the faulty connections are indeed that result, or a naturally occuring defect.

Either way, this is a pretty decent forward step in treatment and mitigation, so long as we treat it like a mental health issue rather than an outcast branding or pre-crime assessment.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, September 8, 2009 7:35 PM

Frem.

Interesting. There are two problems here:
1. unnatural synaptic connections relating cause and effect, strange relationships, etc.
2. Actual brain damage caused by early head injuries and even more from poor nutrition of the abused child.

IMHO, Mental heath care is pathetic. I think we should destigmatize it, and just pull it into mainstream "healthcare." If someone' behavior is erratic, probably they have a heath problem that should be treated. Yes, there's psychology and neurochemistry, but I'd say most causes are just natural, with psychological symptoms.

But: All of these should just be treated as normal health problems, because mental health care is just as bad as the child treatment clinics you fight against... and you know I know...

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, September 8, 2009 9:04 PM

Not just mental health care, but drug addiction and abuse should be folded in too, and treated as a purely medical problem rather than a criminal justice issue.

Make it a one body, one full-service system, instead of segregated parts working at cross purposes.

Of course, my reaction to the whole system is a bit like Gils reaction to the Dihoxulator his father had built.
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20021218

"Sparks": in this comic are based on hyperfocus ISTP personalities, one can imagine imma big fan.

-F

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, September 8, 2009 11:12 PM

Agreed.

Not one system of course: competing systems.

Our actual medical system is a mess, and its new govt subsidy will lead to even more hopeless corruption.

But I agree, all are conditions to be treated. Education, medicine, etc.

Phil Foglio might be another two degrees of separation.

I miss mental illness, my brain was so much faster... No perspective though. I could make amazing things, no connection to reality. I did build some awesome things. I'm still seeking that chemical balance between "normal" and "insane."

Insane is definitely smarter and more capable, esp. at large complex tasks involving a large number of variables. It's less realistic, though, and can can get focused on complex projects that may be great master plans but are impossible to put into action...

gnawing...

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, September 8, 2009 11:49 PM

Ah, well, my madness has a purpose, and a focus, and best of all ?
An ON/OFF switch.

You'll note that one of my memes is Try Reason FIRST, but reality is what it is, and sometimes reason doesn't work...

And I do believe Gil has the right idea about how to handle that.
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20080303
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20080305
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20080307
Although admittedly I am much more fond of his father, Klaus.

Damn good comic, very entertaining to an ISTP with Sparky tendencies themself.

-F

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, September 9, 2009 12:00 AM

On off switch would be nice, what is it?
(love the ads)

HKCAVALIER

Wednesday, September 9, 2009 12:01 AM

Hey DT, it's always tough coming into a conversation that's been going on for 4 days, read it all in one sitting (as I have just done--more or less, some definite skimming and glossing goin' on over here ) and then try to add to the conversation--feels kinda like trying to merge onto the freeway during rush hour, but here I go:

Way too much to go into point for point--and I generally try to avoid such, 'cause it so often leads to more misunderstanding, not less--but I'll take on just this li'l snippet as a microcosm, if you will, of what doesn't sit right with me from your posts on this thread.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Neocons who created the Bush admin openly admitted to being socialists:
"A Neoconservative is a socialist who supports the conservative movement" - Irving Kristol, founder of neoconservatism.
"Socialists will never get elected on their own merits"
"A neoconservative is just a socialist who was broadsided by reality."
"A social dem [later:clintonista] is a socialist who was broadsided by reality but didn't press charges."
Mr. Kristol is a funny guy. Too bad he has killed so many people.

First of all there's a choice of words that I find to be pretty thoroughly loaded, which you may not have noticed or intended as such: "openly admitted." I really doubt that. The Neocons are spin-doctors first and foremost. They're admitting nothing, they're framing the debate and you're just accepting their frame and calling it "objective." Neocons, 1; DT, Zero.

Now, folk on the Libertarian side of the discussion tend to use "socialist" and "statist" as pretty much the same thing. It's a right-leaning idea. Lefties, real lefties, commies and anarchists tend to see "statist" and "fascist" as the same thing, which is just their scare-words for bad right-wingers. The Neocons are happy to continue the confusion. But communism, actual miggy figgin' communism isn't statist at all. And socialism for the communist--the REAL leftists in the spectrum--is just a stage on the way to communism theorized by Karl Marx. The words "communism" and "socialism" have been completely redefined by the anti-Stalinists, the anti-Maoists. And then co-opted by the right-wing to discredit actual leftism. The philosophy and theory of "communism" and "socialism" have been completely drowned out by the PROFOUNDLY CORRUPT regimes that co-opted both terms.

At the heart of Neocon theory is the idea that the general populace cannot think for themselves and require a tiny Cabal to decide what's best for them. The Neocon's are fundamentally anti-egalitarian. And ALL so-called "leftist" leaders the right is so fond of pointing out--your Stalins and such--have only used leftist rhetoric to achieve power--none of 'em have ever ACTED on egalitarian principles.

What's hilarious is that the libertarians have aided and abetted the Neocons in discrediting the real Left, by claiming that the left are the ones who want "government" to decide what's best for everyone. You see what they did there? The Neocons and the libertarians are the one's who see government as an oligarchy, de facto, while the leftists believe government is by, for and of the people (or should be/can be). So when the Leftist says that government should decide what goes on, the leftist is talking about the actual will of the people. But when a Neocon or libertarian speak of government deciding, they always see oligarchy--AND THEN, ta-daaa! paint the leftist as a closet oligarch, or "authoritarian." Obama is the biggest power monger in the country! Check your premises, DT.

It's maddening. You and your side (nya, nya, DT's on a si-iiiide!

) have decided what communism and socialism MEAN now. Except, ironies of ironies, to the actual communists and socialists.

So, your Neocon "openly admits" to being socialist? Bull. Shit.

"A Neoconservative is a socialist who supports the conservative movement."

No. A Neoconservative is a statist who will discredit leftist rhetoric any way he can.

[

GEEZER

Wednesday, September 9, 2009 2:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Chartreuse sounds like fun

Folk who fish crankbait for largemouth bass say, "If it ain't chartruese, it ain't no use".

"Keep the Shiny side up"

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, September 9, 2009 5:03 AM

HK

You might have noticed that I don't get into partisan debates, and that usually when one comes up I tend to just whack people over the head and tell them to sit down and behave which has absolutely no effect.

That said, I'll answer your questions, but I don't want to get into a political argument. I have no stake in them and think they're a waste of time.

My only concern is the truth and that people cooperated to help each other find it. If I don't know something, I ask. If I'm pretty sure of something, I just point people in a direction, and they can go read up on it, and draw their own conclusions. I'm not out to convert anyone.

Okay, now specifically.

Quote:

First of all there's a choice of words that I find to be pretty thoroughly loaded, which you may not have noticed or intended as such: "openly admitted." I really doubt that.

Don't. You can go back and read them. Start with the early one, Max Shachtman, Leo Strauss, Irving Kristol, that whole crowd and their immediate underlings, who you know as the neocons, Bill Kristol, Perle, Wolfowitz, and their social dems, who are part of the same think tanks, Brezinski, Khalizad, the whole list is pretty easy to assemble.

Back in the early days they made no effort to cover their tracks, they were pretty arrogant. Now they do, because they realize that their policies are unpopular. In the 60s and 70s they were real open about it, they even supported socialist candidates as third party, and then as democrats, but even after the Scoop Jackson disaster there was still a lot of open rhetoric about what they were doing, and a fair number of people were paying attention... Just not enough, or not the right people. Mainly, I suspect that the people who were warned shrugged the idea off as paranoia, that these neocons were conspiring to take over the govt. and dismantle the constitution, "oh, that's absurd" people of either party would have said at the time. Still, if you dig you can find some interesting and insightful analysis from contemporaries.

I'd say even up to 2001, there was some openness to the movement, but the first real attempt to cloak themselves was when Reagan nominated Jean Kirkpatrick, who was a member of the communist party, a fact that the neocons went out of their way to hide. So, like many things, you can watch this as a gradual shift.

Another thing you'll find when you dig is that the agenda in the 1970s for the neocons was very similar to what it is right now. That's part of the problem. The world has changed. They haven't. They're dinosaurs, and it's time political evolution moved passed them.

And yes, I grant that they would not admit it *now*. Unfortunately for them, they talk all the time and write even more.

Re: word use

I got into some arguments about this before. Socialism is short for social engineering. I have no idea how anyone intends to do that without a strong degree of central authority.

I think statist is a loaded word. It only has negative connotations, as does fascist. Sometimes I use these, but only as an insult, with a grain of truth, like re: Hugo Chavez.

Re: scare-words for bad right-wingers.

I don't think that the left has a real clear idea of the right, not saying that it's any better in reverse, but the left does label govts. as "right wing" on a completely random basis.

The right wing is probably more off base when it tries to ascribe motives to the left.

Quote:
The Neocons are happy to continue the confusion.

The word is dead. I think we have to call them "globalists" now, because post-bush you have a lot of these folk redefining themselves as democrats, and a lot who were in the back rooms in those think tanks who were always social dems coming to the forefront for the same groups with the same ideas. They're a bipartisan disease. They just seem to increase in govt. over time. I hope Obama can shoot better than he bowls because he's gonna have his hands full with these agendamonkeys.

Quote:
But communism, actual miggy figgin' communism isn't statist

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HKCAVALIER

Wednesday, September 9, 2009 8:01 AM

(Holy crap, I think I just won the interwebz! This is the longest post I think I've ever written!!! Huzzah!)

Hey DT,

Oh well. You kinda get a lot of ideas about my intentions other than the one that rules me: expressing myself. I'm not jonesing over here. I did try to feature "the leftist point of view" and I may have gotten carried away. I don't consider myself a communist, though I grok it better than I do socialism. I like some of the communists I've known and think others of them are off their rockers. I am really annoyed about this disconnect between how actual leftists use the words "communist" and "socialist" and how their detractors use them. Why use a term to describe regimes that oppose communism at every level other than rhetoric just because they used the term themselves? Just doesn't seem fair, darn it!

I was trying to explain the profound disconnect between the way you seem to be thinking about the Left, and how the Left think about themselves. That was my big point and you thought I was trying to get in a fight with you. I played at getting in a fight with you (nya, nya, etc.) but I wasn't expecting a fight. I thought maybe I could say something about communism, because I know a lot of self-described communists--don't know that a lot of folk on this board can say that. I could be dead wrong.

And, waaaa, I've read Strauss and Kristol, that's how I know they are not egalitarians (I half heartedly went around looking for quotes but lost interest, 'cause I knew you'd read them). Egalitarianism is presented as anti-authoritarian in Altmeyer's book and I agree with that assessment. So I say egalitarianism is a leftist value because of the leftists I have known--no communist I have ever met believes that Stalin was a communist (and will go on at great length to explain exactly why at the slightest provocation)--Stalin called himself a communist, his party appropriated the mantle of communist, destroyed the meaning of the word, but they were fundamentally authoritarian in their views and policies.

When I talk to communists and socialist they never quote any of the neocons you mentioned. Those people may have been acting within the socialist or democratic parties, but that doesn't really mean much, does it? Their agenda is power, so they thought the socialist party success was their best, most direct way to power. Turns out they miscalculated, so they dumped their so-called leftist roots wholesale. To the authoritarian mind and to the social dominating mind, it's all just a means to an end. They're Machiavellian, yes, absolutely and that is why they're not leftist/progressive/populist/humane/socially responsible/trustworthy. That's was my point.

I didn't mean to be snarking at you with my rephrasing of your Kristol quotes--I was trying to rephrase them from a leftist point of view to show you how different a leftist point of view is from Kristol's. You were saying he was a socialist because he said he was a socialist and I was trying to show the illogic of that argument, by contrasting it with a leftist interpretation of those quotes. Oh well. Chaos and miscommunication, 1; HK, Zero.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Back in the early days they made no effort to cover their tracks, they were pretty arrogant. Now they do, because they realize that their policies are unpopular. In the 60s and 70s they were real open about it, they even supported socialist candidates as third party, and then as democrats, but even after the Scoop Jackson disaster there was still a lot of open rhetoric about what they were doing, and a fair number of people were paying attention... Just not enough, or not the right people. Mainly, I suspect that the people who were warned shrugged the idea off as paranoia, that these neocons were conspiring to take over the govt. and dismantle the constitution, "oh, that's absurd" people of either party would have said at the time. Still, if you dig you can find some interesting and insightful analysis from contemporaries.

Absolutely.

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, September 9, 2009 3:13 PM

HK

Yeah, you win, I have work t do. I asked Frem to kick my ass if I started doing this too much...

I'll try

1. doesn't matter how people intend a word to mean, it matters what they actually do.

2. i humbly suggest not latching yourself to a political side, these are sinking stones, and alienate 1/2 the population at least. Election results in any country where communists run (and Chavez isn't arming them) indicate that this allegiance will alienate 96% of the population. In china it's law, and so you won't alienate anyone.

3. Instead, learn to talk the talk of all political viewpoints in case you get mixed up with political people. In those situations, then try to extricate yourself before you end up in politics (trust me, it's not a pretty site.)

4. Egalitarianism is a leftist value. Unlike PWL, it requires totalitarian control to take it to the logical conclusion. Nature is by nature, unequal. Equality is an artificial opposition. Absolute equality requires absolute control.

5. Altmeyer isn't a source. I treat him as a poster, with whom I disagree, on politics. He should stick to psychology for now.

6. Stalin didn't destroy communism, Lenin did. In a few short years he managed to kill 13 million, a larger genocide that the indian wars (12 million) or the slave wars(11 million) both of which took centuries. But it was always a flawed ideology, IMHO.

7. Why would communists quote neocons? That would be like Ahmadinejad quoting Bin Laden.

8. The neocons didn't *change* as people. They changed their tactics. In the 1970s they didn't see the need. This was because they didn't have the level of power that generates scrutiny. The change was in behavior. They were always willing to do "whatever necessary" but they changed their range of "necessary." Supporting conservatives became "necessary" then, hiding their identitiesy of Kirkpatrick became "necessary" then hiding their actual point of view became "necessary."

It wouldn't occur to me right off the bat that hiding my point of view was necessary. If I were in Mao's China, I might notice that being openly Taoist was a bad idea. But it's not going to occur in a friendly environment. I'm guessing that you're surrounded by liberals, and so it doesn't occur that these points of view in support of communism could potentially alienate the majority of the population. If you weren't surrounded by liberals, you might hold the identical point of view, but it would occur to you not announce it so clearly.

I'm not saying one situation is better than the other, or that recognition of unpopular viewpoints leads to machiavellians, just that machiavellians are limited by the same psychology as the rest of us. I don't want my house invaded by rampaging gangs of barbarians, so I don't put up a castle wall around my house. It has little to do with not being I'm paranoid.

The only thing that would seem abnormal would be to set up such defenses long *before* they seemed useful

9. Damn, now this is a long post.

Quote:
Remind me why we're fighting again?

We're not. I'm just pointing out that there's a 1/2 of the problem that you've missed: the left half. I mean *I* don't this: (a real right wing problem):

Someone asked Carbone if he would still be designing missile systems for the defense dept if Bush hadn't won the election, and he replied "Bush wasn't elected by the people. He was appointed by God." And he meant it.

But you have to see them whereever they are. I'm not saying there was no right wing lunacy in the Bush disaster, but that the neocons, specifically, weren't one of them.

If you were to have your idyllic communal collectivist society, I can tell you already what the result would be:

1. It would be more efficient, because you wouldn't produce excess (why does every human need a motorized transportation device? Or their own washing machine?)

2. It would be less competitive. Competition is the birthplace of innovation, because it forces artificial necessity.

We don't need to guess, these s

NIKI2

Wednesday, September 9, 2009 5:30 PM

Dream:

Quote:
I miss mental illness, my brain was so much faster... No perspective though. I could make amazing things, no connection to reality. I did build some awesome things. I'm still seeking that chemical balance between "normal" and "insane."

Insane is definitely smarter and more capable, esp. at large complex tasks involving a large number of variables. It's less realistic, though, and can can get focused on complex projects that may be great master plans but are impossible to put into action...

Did/do you have a mental illness? It sounds like it--and there's a huge difference between "insane" and mentally ill, at least to most of us in the community. We try to avoid that word, given the stigma.

Sounds like bipolarity or schiz, from the brain being so muh faster and being able to do amazing, but unrealistic, things. Just curious.

Cavalier: Wow...I think you win the typing competition hands down! Found it really interesting, nonetheless:

Quote:
I miss mental illness, my brain was so much faster... No perspective though. I could make amazing things, no connection to reality. I did build some awesome things. I'm still seeking that chemical balance between "normal" and "insane."

Insane is definitely smarter and more capable, esp. at large complex tasks involving a large number of variables. It's less realistic, though, and can can get focused on complex projects that may be great master plans but are impossible to put into action...the Neocons have simply redefined reality to suit their nihilist agenda--the "reality" they speak of is might makes right and all their policies bend to that malignant distortion of reality...

I agree with all those statements. As well as

Quote:
That's part of the problem. The world has changed. They haven't. They're dinosaurs, and it's time political evolution moved passed them.

and

Quote:
The problem is, once a word gets used, it gains meaning. You can see this through the entire etymological history of every language.

Although there is still a big difference between "conservation" and "environmental"...but if you mean both are used as environmental labelse, I agree.

Quote:
they were defined by Stalin and Mao, and also Lenin, and others THROUGH THEIR ACTIONS.

Yes, but I think those and the other words all need to be retired; they've become nothing buzz words to inflame the masses--I'm not sure you wouldn't get different definitions of each, and "democrat", "conservative", "facist" and all the other buzz words politicians have used to further their agenda these days. Also "powermonger"--it's a loaded term, despite how you define it. Specific definitions have become lost over time, and calling someone that based on the specific definition isn't effective in communication. It's a visceral word, as are all the others. As such, yes:

Quote:
The whole left/right thing is a divisive political mechanism of TPTB to split us against each other.

I heartily disagree. Especially as concerns their ADMINISTRATIONS. I don't know both men personally, so I obviously can't say, but given the actions of their administrations, I think there are huge differences.

Quote:
You must trade in the commodity of influence. Many people already have power. To get them to help you with your rise to power, you must make deals. As a result of these deals, you can be sure that elections will not be stolen from you, that campaign coffers will be full, no scandals will spill, or be fabricated, and during your campaign, the press will be relatively friendly.

Agreed, although I would say less to the degree you do; scandals still happen and the press isn't automatically friendly, even relatively, to what the two parties determine, IMO.

I, like most people nowadays, vote for the "lesser of two evils". Voting for someone who is the best candidate does nothing anymore except waste your vote. I don't know how to

HKCAVALIER

Wednesday, September 9, 2009 7:56 PM

Heya DT,

I get the feeling I really shouldn't try to be funny with you. Every time I try to lighten things up, you think I'm snarking. "Waa, boo-hoo" was expressive of my own sadness that you took my remarks so personally--I intended it as whimsical kind of self-deprecation but I was sincere. I know: fail.

My "winning the interwebz" was not about beating you at anything, it wasn't really directed at you, particularly. It was a reference to a lot of people lately--Niki, Kwicko, others--talking about "typing awards" and such. It was mostly expressive of my own self-consciousness at being so wordy.

So, I'll try not to be funny. I'll try.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
1. doesn't matter how people intend a word to mean, it matters what they actually do.

I get the feeling here that you may believe that language is wholly separate from reality--referring to reality but not expressive of reality? I've known linguists who thought that way. I don't think that way. I think language is connected to certain archetypal meanings--I think there are true meanings and less true meanings determined by the collective unconscious of humankind, if you will. I hope you don't think that's silly.

When I was little, I leaned that "love" meant manipulation and control, because such a definition was consistent with my parents' actions. When I grew up and after a bunch of therapy I leaned what "love" really means. I think meaning is highly influenced by context, but not determined by it.

Quote:
2. i humbly suggest not latching yourself to a political side, these are sinking stones, and alienate 1/2 the population at least. Election results in any country where communists run (and Chavez isn't arming them) indicate that this allegiance will alienate 96% of the population. In china it's law, and so you won't alienate anyone.

Y'know, DT, you and I HAVE been hanging out here for years and yet in these last few posts from you I've gotten a lot this friendly advice as if you're writing "Letters to a Young Internet Gladiator." I've spent years here specifically not latching myself to a political side. Specifically, as you say, learning "to talk the talk of all political viewpoints." But in the years since the 9/11 attacks I've seen the right discredit itself more and more each day and I've seen the left take tiny but incremental steps toward political relevance. And I've become extremely interested in the connections between psychology and politics. So my rhetoric, my allegiance, if you like, has shifted slightly. I'm okay with that for now.

Quote:
4. Egalitarianism is a leftist value. Unlike PWL, it requires totalitarian control to take it to the logical conclusion. Nature is by nature, unequal. Equality is an artificial opposition. Absolute equality requires absolute control.

This one is just way, way out there for me. Wow. Says a lot about how you view the left. I absolutely see NO logic in your conclusion. Equality to me is fundamentally an issue of respect and compassion, it is individual and thoroughly respects individual rights. The freakin' moment you start to force your notion of "equality" on another person, respect goes out the window, compassion is long gone, and your invasive actions have trumped any lip service you may have formerly given to "equality."

You obviously don't believe in equality. You obviously find a belief in equality irrational, unnatural--fundamentally corrupt, y'know, in terms of reason and logic (what were you saying about making an enemy of 1/2 the world?). So, I understand why you think communism should be defined by the Stalins and Lenins of the world--you don't see them in any kind of conflict with leftist ideals. Yikes.

God yes, communism is a flawed ideology, if for no other reason than that such monsters have been able to twist it so readily to their ends. I'm a big fan of Nietzsche, but, in the wrong hands...oopsy!

I thank my lucky stars they didn't call themselves th

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, September 9, 2009 8:02 PM

Just, as an idea...

Our so called "leaders" were never supposed to be such...

They were going to be our "representatives".

We don't need "leaders".

Unless we are at war... and then THEY should be the first into battle.

But, thats just me. I may be wrong.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, September 9, 2009 8:33 PM

I'm coming into the middle of an argument here, which is probably a futile endeavor, but oh well. I've noticed a couple of things here as I've watched you and DT present your cases.

I think your phrasing HAS accidentally made DT think that you are communist.

But he's got a point, too, HK. Communism may not have originally necessarily meant a strong centralized government, and rather communes, as you say, but in the modern times, I think when someone talks about a communist system, even folks on the left see it that way.

Now, don't get me wrong, because I empathize with the renaming of it, I do. For a little less than a decade now, I've felt that the best system of government is at a local level in small communities, with a heavy dose of cooperation, and no major overlying structure. By your definition, that'd be communist, yeah, and those would be communes? But the thing is, language is fluid, as you yourself are arguing. I identified as a communist about five years ago for the very reasons that you state, HOWEVER, I found a better way to describe myself, one that doesn't have any competing meanings in the mainstream language and so which better describes my position on preferring a lack of government.

Quote:
Similarly, the deeper a person's non-authoritarian thinking goes, the more generous, communal, and civil libertarian they become.

This is where you and I part ways, because I don't see authoritarian thinking as a primarily right trait. And I doesn't see generosity as a primarily left trait, and YES, I'm AWARE of the dictionary definition of liberal. I see this as a false division. I'm an atheist, and I live in Utah, but I can say, without feeling like my atheism or my political perspective is threatened, that the religious right can be very generous, even to people outside their group.

My belief is you can't just paint a broad stroke over a group of people, or even a person in particular. Every person has different ways where they'll fall on a particular issue. You can be authoritarian AND generous AND libertarian. It just depends what the topic is.

Where's Frem? I say we insert the "Plays by rules/Does not play by rules" and "Nice person/prick" political spectrum chart into this dialogue. :)

HKCAVALIER

Wednesday, September 9, 2009 8:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Where's Frem? I say we insert the "Plays by rules/Does not play by rules" and "Nice person/prick" political spectrum chart into this dialogue. :)

Will this do?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, September 9, 2009 8:53 PM

That works, yep. I think that originally the other chart was developed as a simplification of the alignment system, but I find it hilarious and true to life applying it to politics. :)

RUE

Wednesday, September 9, 2009 9:08 PM

"Nature is by nature, unequal. Equality is an artificial opposition. Absolute equality requires absolute control. ... It would be less competitive."

This is a strange dualism, and false to boot.

Are infants equal to adults ? Are the old and infirm equal in strength to the young and fit ?

How then do infants survive, given they are so unequal ? After all, in a purely competitive world the only 'natural' thing for them to do is die. Why then should older people be allowed to exist ? What would their value be ? (I would propose wisdom, but that is not a MATERIAL benefit.)

The proper duality isn't equality v competition.

It's cooperation v competition. And cooperation has it ALL over competition ... any day. Cooperation is how you achieve important things like survival of young and access to perspective, despite demonstrable material inequality.

"Competition is the birthplace of innovation, because it forces artificial necessity."

Somehow, I don't think fire, the bowl, language, writing, tool use, agriculture and other major human advances came about b/c of competition. And really, with all the serious and pressing SURVIVAL issues facing humanity today, I don't think we need artificial necessities. There are too many real ones already.

But in a general vein - what have competition and hierarchies gotten us ?

50% of the world lives on less than $2.50 per day.

Resources are being used up to make cheap goods that will be trash tomorrow - all to fuel the cycle of spending so that a very few somebodies make a profit.

Is this sustainable ? Is this sane ? Is this something you want to see continue into the future ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, September 9, 2009 10:10 PM

Niki

Quote:
I, like most people nowadays, vote for the "lesser of two evils". Voting for someone who is the best candidate does nothing anymore except waste your vote. I don't know how to change that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting

Quote:
I think absolute equality requires absolute COOPERATION. As such absolute equality is no more attainable than "absolute" anything else. But I believe the best equality we can manage is attained by cooperation, not control.

That's Kropotkin, in a nutshell, really.

HKC

Quote:
So, I'll try not to be funny. I'll try.

Not a hope in hell, but thanks for tryin!

Quote:
When I grew up and after a bunch of therapy I leaned what "love" really means.

I've always known what it meant.

The whole clip is here.
http://www.vachss.com/mission/behavior.html

Quote:
The freakin' moment you start to force your notion of "equality" on another person, respect goes out the window, compassion is long gone, and your invasive actions have trumped any lip service you may have formerly given to "equality."

I had thought this so abdundantly obvious it didn't need to be mentioned, and now I see it did - whoops.

Quote:
philosophical anarchism is not simply lack of government. You know better than that.

Damn well oughta, what with me explainin it over and over all the time, oh so patiently like one does to children with short attention spans, meh.

Quote:
One man's speculation is another man's daily experience. I perceive that society as a whole behaves, in aggregate, not unlike an individual psychological entity.

As do I, and repeatedly state so, with examples.

Quote:
In principle I see the mechanisms that influence individual psychology are present in larger communities. Much of modern psychology is based on this principle and Alice Miller, in particular, has researched this and explicated it brilliantly. You may disagree, but don't go dismissing me out of hand when you kinda clearly don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe Frem can help us out here with some URL's and such.

You'd need to be a little more specific about each thing though, cause to cover a whole issue usually winds up with a ton of em, just ask Wulf, lol.

Quote:
If Dr. Paul had gotten the nomination I presume he'd have been called to account for that crap more directly than I've seen him do. Thanks.

Well, white supremecist assholes pay taxes too, and I might not LIKE what they're sayin, they DO get a say - I'm sure there's plenty of hate-whitey types who voted for Obama, but as he did not include such in his platform I am not inclined to blame HIM for that.
I can't see Dr. Paul givin em the time of day, honestly, his nature doesn't really allow for it.

Miss Bytemite:

Quote:
Where's Frem? I say we insert the "Plays by rules/Does not play by rules" and "Nice person/prick" political spectrum chart into this dialogue. :)

There ya go!

Frem was in court putting the capstone on a prosecutors case by participating in the dog n pony show under threat of warrant and violence (we call that a summons, argh!) over a couple caught-in-the-act creepers I no longer gave a rats ass about the minute they were in custody and my clients property was returned.

The whole fuckin thing is so OBVIOUSLY theatre and the real deals made in the back rooms before they even walk into a courtroom, it serves neither the victims nor the accused any kind of justice at all and in the end serves none but itself.

And the pittance of reimbursement didn't even pay the tab for gas and parking, much less my time - the only high point of the entire three ring circus was getting to hear the suspects bitch and fuss about being owned so badly by local security... without ever quite realizing exactly WHO they were sitting next to, until some clerk handed me the relevant paperwork - cue a couple bricks getting shat

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, September 9, 2009 10:33 PM

1. There aren't any rules here, but there is a protocol. Rue, that's outside of the protocol. No RTLs post aborted foetuses, there's no porn, no mutilated Iraqi corpses. You know why? Because that lowers the level of debate to "The horror, the horror." Quite frankly, I have no use for the Kurtz rhetorical style. Can we stick to a higher level

2. I'm not here to debate politically with anyone, I avoid these topics, and getting caught in one is against any attention. I find myself here, and the peer pressure would be on my to defend all statements, which is a waste of time, they stand by themselves.

HK

I think you take this too seriously, but you have interesting things to say. I hope in the future they're shorter ;) I'm going to revert to my previous policy of not reading passed 160 words.

Two answers for you though:

1. Language. You have a point about the internet, but that's the development of polarizing language. If the right wing blogs call God a warrior and the left calls God a peacemaker, then we don't know what God is, he has no track record, so we're screwed. But if the right calls Obama a socialist and the left calls him a moderate, then they can continue until they're at the extremes of the left calling him a right wing plan and the right calling him a commie, and the two will never communicate with one another.

Our mutual language must be based on reality. What Obama says and does defines Obama. What he said is that he considers himself a Reaganite. I think that in reality he's closer to FDR, but somewhere in the middle. I take issue with some of the things he does, but I'm going to judge Obama based on what Obama does. Just like I did with Bush (Talk about devision: The left: He a Nazi! the right: He's the Son of God!) Reality: Bush is an asshole.

On equality: What I believe is irrelevant. I have to live in the world I see.

The world is Cat eats Mouse. Deny it, or deal with it. Don't tell me that I'm riding some crazy fringe ideology here or have some deep bias on this cat/mouse thing. I might have a darker view than others, but I'm calling cat eats mouse based on what I see.

Kathy,

This isn't about humans. Sure, humans are unequal: some humans have guns. Israelis and the palestinians aren't equal, though they're genetically very similar, one has lots of money and lots of guns. See the whole cat mouse thing.

The only way you're going to change that balance is if you have absolute control over the situation. If you're world dictator, you can fix it.

Jews left europe, because they were getting kicked around, they went to palestine, and kicked someone else around. The palestinians should probably go somewhere else if they're sick of being kicked around, because throwing stones at Israeli soldiers is just going to get them killed. For any group fleeing a hostile environment, I recommend the US as a destination: it's relatively friendly to newcomers, and there's a ton of space, resources, etc. everyone is relatively well off. Inner cities are a lot richer than the area around me, but no complaints from here.

I do, however, have to get to work, so I can pay the bills, such as it is. I may live in poverty, but I do have to work for it, and actually, I enjoy my poverty. No one is shooting at me. I think that's a plus. People in the inner city might not have that advantage, but here's one thing I *do* believe in: I think Obama is going to change that, and if he succeeds, well than hats off to Barack Obama.

Oh, any one more thing, just on Obama: I read that he's put an end to the selling of our national forests to logging companies. If this is true, than score one for Obama on that side as well.

I still have major issues with him: The war, and the economy. I think the economy is headed for such a fall that if might end the war by default.

We'll see. Certainly Obama's neighborhood is looking a lot better ATM than it did two years ago (I was just there.)

DT out, I really must get to work. Sorry. It's not that I don't appreciate all the input, discussions, I do, but I ha

RUE

Wednesday, September 9, 2009 11:21 PM

"Can we stick to a higher level ..." of --- non-debate ? What exactly are we sticking to ? You post your thing, other people post their things (as long as you find them acceptable), but no one discusses them ? A Babel of DT-censored voices all going at the same time ? Is that what you are proposing we 'stick' to ?

50% of the world lives on less than 2.50USD per day.

I'm not sure people here understand what it means. It means not enough water. Not enough food. Not enough shelter. No medical care. It means painful and early death for many. The picture I posted IS what it means. It IS the end result of our current system.

Is that what you don't want to discuss ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, September 10, 2009 3:02 AM

Kathy,

Count me in that 50%.

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