Voters steer Europe to the right
POSTED BY: Geezer
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 18, 2026 16:35
VIEWED: 24282
PAGE 7 of 23
Quote:AFA your collective attitudes towards corporations: Yep, you both look pretty much the same to me.
Or can you no longer tell the far right community member from the libertarian?
But yanno, this IS an open forum, and I didn't know that I was prohibited from responding to your posts (or perhaps you would like me to be prohibited?). So I addressed your post about "accountability" with horror stories from private corporations, which go out of their way to obscure responsibility for negligence by creating a half-dozen interlocking shell companies. Is that any better?
As I said before, it's always possible to come up with individual stories about one thing or another and individual gripes about one thing and another. I guarantee- you come up with one about "socialized" medicine and I'll come up with three from the good old USA, 'cause anything they screw up, we can screw up better. But if you want to know the REAL story (do you?) you look at stats like lifespan, infant mortality, disability, etc. The USA is behind on every broad measure of health, AND we spend a shitload more on health care per capita than anyone else.
Our private-care system is such a success.
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
If you want to know the REAL story (do you?) you look at stats like lifespan, infant mortality, disability, etc. The USA is behind on every broad measure of health.
OK. I cannot speak to every part-and-parcel of data but I'll drag your old wikipedia link to the fore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
You are outraged perhaps that the US ranks 30th? And behind several euro countries with their social programs? Have you actually looked at this data beyond the rankings?
According to this pages table, which I cannot confirm of deny btw, the data mean of life expectancy in the states is 78.06 years. This exists behind these socialized euro countries:
Finland @ 78.66 years (7 months longer)
UK @ 78.7 (7 months longer)
Belgum @ 78.92 (10 months longer)
Germany @ 78.95 (10 months longer)
Norway @ 79.78 (1 year 8 months longer)
Sweden @ 80.63 (2 years 6 months longer)
France @ 80.87 (2 years 10 months longer)
I know there are other euro countries twixt some listed, but these are the ones I know are socialized and since France is tops I don't see a mathmatical requirement to include them all.
So Signy...2 years and 10 months of life beyond the time expected in the states. This is your grand proof of the superiority of social care? Really? I'm sorry but 34 months is not proof of anything. And that was just France. In Belgum you'd live 10 months longer, 7 in the UK. That seems trivial. I have a better way to explain the data.
Americans are less healthy.
We have the highest obesity rates in the world. There are whole billboards on interstate highways trumpeting warnings of heart disease to drivers. Fat americans die of heart attacks and strokes in their 50's and 60's all the time. I had a relative who was obese and died...my mothers 1st cousin. The poor woman was fat, lazy and horribly unhealthy. She had diabeties by age 40 and was dead at 54. Her death exists as part of the statistic on your quoted wikipedia page and had nothing to do with inferior care.
When I lived in Germany I would have been hard pressed to find an obese german in Saarbruken. Some were overweight sure, but most were either lean or of average weight. They hated McDonalds, calling it stupid and "too american". The schoolkids even thought that we ate McDonalds for dinner every night! They made fun of us for it until we told them different. 60 minutes did a piece in 2004 about a region of France with ultra-high longevity stats. And the people all drank a specific vintage of wine, (one glass) at dinner meals. I guess the question posed by Leslie Stahl was as to the wine's influence on the population, because a region of Italy drank similar vintages and had similar stats.
Consider again the obesity rates of the USA and then consider the marvel that we are at 30th at all. How can we compete at 78.06 years hindered as we are with so many unhealthy fat people? How do we overcome that disadvantage? Have you also considered American rates of murder which are also included in these wikipedia stats? It's 30% of the reason why people in Zimbabwe, Zambia, Angola, and Swaziland rarely see age 40 (The others being AIDS, hard labor and famine). What are the american murder stats as compared to Norway? Or Sweden? I seem to recall that they are among the most peaceful nations on the planet. When one Chicago youth kills another, does not the new 19-year-old stat skew things downward akwardly?
If you are so wrapped up in the data of life expectancy perhaps you can explain why Denmark and Ireland exist under the USA in the data? Does this seeming failure of Ireland and Denmark constitute proof positive that socialized health care is inferior? Of course not. And neither does the UK's positive 7 months or even France's whopping 34. Arguements like this one of yours are as common as crab grass but could never address the economics of the problem. Here's a website for you if you ever want to overwhelm yourself with so
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How many people here went to public schools?
How many went to private schools?
Does the existence of public schools mean that private schools are no longer allowed to exist? Does it mean that those private schools are no longer able to provide an education? Does it lessen the quality of that education? Are the private schools cheaper to attend than the public ones?
It's funny, because those on the right tend to denigrate public education while ALSO denigrating any perceived "elitism" of someone going to a private school or - god forbid - an IVY LEAGUE school. What gives? You're supposed to get an education, but not a good one, and not a free one?
I bring this up because those who argue against "socialism" don't seem to mind one little bit reaping all the BENEFITS of socialized programs (roads, education, disaster relief, water service, schools, police, fire departments, etc.) - they just don't want to have to PAY for those programs.
As I've mentioned before, my health insurance costs over $6000.00 per year. And I've never used it. It went up *ONLY* 22% this year, apparently because I've never used it. It seems to go up about that much EVERY year. Now, I gotta tell ya, I really don't think a government-run health care program is going to raise my taxes $6000.00 per year, and continue to increase that rate at around 18-30% per year. Do you?
As for the level and quality of care... well, I'm already paying out the ass for really, really SHITTY care and insurance that is next to useless. So the way I see it, I'll be out next to nothing, and I'll likely have MORE money left out of my paychecks; why is any of this something that I should be telling my congresspeople to vote against?
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.
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Quote:
At what point do the singular issues stop being so singular and begin to paint an image? How many american homicides and heart attacks mount a case that 78.06 is a triumph and not a tragedy?
Lemme get this straight... You're using our high murder rate to CELEBRATE that we don't live as long as most Europeans? Where's that get fun?
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.
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INFANT MORTALITY AND UNDER-FIVE MORTALITY
166 United States 6.3 7.8
164 New Caledonia 6.1 8.7
165 Cyprus 5.9 6.9
166 Brunei 5.5 6.7
167 Channel Islands ( Jersey and Guernsey) 5.2 6.2
168 Cuba 5.1 6.5
169 New Zealand 5.0 6.4
170 Portugal 5.0 6.6
171 Italy 5.0 6.1
172 Ireland 4.9 6.2
173 Canada 4.8 5.9
174 United Kingdom 4.8 6.0
175 Slovenia 4.8 6.4
176 Israel 4.7 5.7
177 Netherlands 4.7 5.9
178 Luxembourg 4.5 6.6
179 Australia 4.4 5.6
180 Austria 4.4 5.4
181 Denmark 4.4 5.8
182 Germany 4.3 5.4
183 Spain 4.2 5.3
184 France 4.2 5.2
185 Belgium 4.2 5.3
186 South Korea 4.1 4.8
187 Switzerland 4.1 5.1
188 Czech Republic 3.8 4.8
189 Finland 3.7 4.7
190 Hong Kong 3.7 4.7
191 Norway 3.3 4.4
192 Sweden 3.2 4.0
193 Japan 3.2 4.2
194 Singapore 3.0 4.1
195 Iceland 2.9 3.9
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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Signy, you're just proving BSCM's point - the high infant mortality rates and under-5 mortality rates aren't proof that private care isn't helping, they're proof that it's a downright miracle that ANYONE in this country lives to a ripe old age! Between dying in birth or just after, dying before age 5, or being shot or murdered, it's amazing ANY of us make it to 78! We're going to have to work harder to see if we can't kill off all those old codgers who are skewing are numbers awkwardly up!
'Course, once they REACH that ripe old age, they get free Social Security and state-run MediCare, so maybe that helps 'em live longer once they get to a certain age...
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.
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Are the bad infant mortality figures a reflection on having lots of ppl without health insurance? Because there again as with the high murder and obesity rates we would be looking at a suffering underclass skewing the statistics.
Heads should roll
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Quote:What?
Originally posted by Kwicko:
You're using our high murder rate to CELEBRATE that we don't live as long as most Europeans? Where's that get fun?
What the gorram hell are you talking about? Who said anything about celebrating? You must be transfering your personal emotions of the subject upon my logical data.
Math is math. Signy drug up stats from wikipedia. I provided an analysis.
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Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:Quote:What?
Originally posted by Kwicko:
You're using our high murder rate to CELEBRATE that we don't live as long as most Europeans? Where's that get fun?
What the gorram hell are you talking about? Who said anything about celebrating? You must be transfering your personal emotions of the subject upon my logical data.
Math is math. Signy drug up stats from wikipedia. I provided an analysis.
Must've been you calling it a triumph...
Quote:
How many american homicides and heart attacks mount a case that 78.06 is a triumph and not a tragedy?
You must be transferring your personal emotions on the subject to Signy's logical data...
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.
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Quote:Since you are focused upon this subject and bring it up often, provide a link to this data and I'll consider it...offering an opinion tomorrow. I assume the left column figure is a numerical ranking and the right figure is a number cut from either 1000 or 10000. (i.e. 6.3/10000 infants die in america)
Originally posted by SignyM:
INFANT MORTALITY AND UNDER-FIVE MORTALITY
My wife and I had our 1st child in December in a womans hospital under our american health care system. Everything seemed fine to me. Nobody in our birthing class seemed worried either. One couple was poor and on medicaid.
But post your link and I'll think on it.
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