Poll: When Crow goes through Serenity's engine...
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Thursday, March 5, 2009 18:50
VIEWED: 13685
PAGE 8 of 9
Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
I smell a lot of rationalizing for all the crew’s consent in regards to their criminal behavior. They all know its wrong, as we do. Stealing medicine that can be easily replaced drives up costs. The same for stealing payroll, someone has to cover for that, usually the workers. Let's not pretend that we think that is right. Mal's not proud of it. Book wants no part in it and leaves. Mal wants Inara to have no part in it and she leaves. The rest need work and Zoe wants to retire rich:)
I ain't saying stealing ain't wrong: I'm saying that Mal and crew don't really see it as wrong. Even Inara, while used to more conversation and somewhat less petty theft and getting hit with pool cues, still has no quams about stashing stolen money in her bra.
And Inara left for a lot of reasons, but Mal's thievery, I reckon, was the least of them.
And Book? Why did he leave? Do we even know?
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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I think that quote from Mal about his work being "honest" is in the context of Inara's work somehow NOT being honest. He sees her work as leading people on. Maybe there's some truth to that, but I'm not here to judge either of them.
So he feels his work is more honest than Inara's work. I don't think it nececssarily follows that he thinks his work is morally justifiable, or that he thinks his work makes him a "good guy." If anything, I suspect he thinks of himself as a murdering heartless thief, and his work is all wrapped up in that. I think he's very much aware that he's a criminal, he wishes he wasn't a criminal, and Inara's social position makes him feel just how low he is all the worse. And I also think, if he felt like he had any other option, this wouldn't be his job of choice. But he thinks he's mostly dead inside, and won't accept anything that the Alliance considers legal, so what else is there for him? Worst case scenario, he gets shot, and while he's not suicidal, I get the feeling he doesn't really care if he were to die.
Most of the time, he can justify the risks he takes and the moral ambiguity by the food on the table argument you mentioned (and lucky for his popularity, so do the rest of us). Sometimes the situation goes beyond the usual moral dilemma of to steal/kill or not (like depriving a town of medicine), and in those cases he tries to make ammends. And sometimes he feels like his stealing or killing IS the right thing to do.
Generally, though, I don't get the sense of pride from Mal for what he does, but practical necessity and weary acceptance.
Now, I don't think everyone in the Rim is a thief. I don't think Kaylee was raised a thief. I do think in many ways she is still innocent, and I don't think Mal has corrupted her.
I'm not sure if Mal doesn't think he hasn't corrupted her.
You make an interesting point on Inara's petty thief snipes. The one time Mal makes a big deal over being called petty is inconsistent: Inara had called him a petty thief plenty of times before, and the most it seemed to do was mildly annoy him and trigger an insult of his own. I have to try to think whether he would be flattered if she called him a great thief. I can see it going either way. Most likely Inara calling him a great thief would be sarcastic. If it wasn't... I'm not sure Inara would ever call him a great thief and mean it, but hypothetically... Well, I doubt the man knows how to take a compliment, especially from Inara, so I can imagine him saying "No, I ain't," more than I can imagine him being pleased. If he were to be pleased, I think it'd be more the elevation of his work to something Inara respects than being called great that would please him. If Inara called him a great thief, meaning it, but implying that she thought being a thief still isn't a good thing, he wouldn't take that well.
Plus, Mal's insults are always about Inara's work, so I guess I've always seen it as Inara insulting Mal's work right back. And I think that's how Mal takes it, too.
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Inara Inara. :)
For all she tries to pretend like she hates the crime (and when it ends up with someone getting shot she does), she sure gets a thrill out of it, doesn't she?
It amuses me how eager she is in The Message to help Mal try and sell the Lassiter. And you can just tell she LOVED trash-talking to Saffron when she had the upper hand.
I never said that the crew never thinks that sometimes they're doing the right thing, or that they think what they're doing is acceptable. Using the Lassiter example, it's another Robin Hood moment, stealing from someone who is rich (and if Saffron is to be believed, also something of a sadist, though I don't see it in the meeting).
I'm saying, in general, that Mal knows he's a criminal, regrets that he is, and wishes he wasn't.
EDIT: Book's leaving is covered in Those Left Behind. He decides to leave because he believes being on Serenity has started to compromise his faith and behaviour too much.
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I'm saying, in general, that Mal knows he's a criminal, regrets that he is, and wishes he wasn't.
Me too!
And, I can't really judge Mal's character by Inara's POV; she's way too much in love with him for her to make an informed analysis. He could kill every puppy in the verse and she would still think he needed to so they could reincarnate into a higher life form. She has hysterical blindness when it comes to Mal.
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Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
I smell a lot of rationalizing for all the crew’s consent in regards to their criminal behavior. They all know its wrong, as we do. Stealing medicine that can be easily replaced drives up costs. The same for stealing payroll, someone has to cover for that, usually the workers. Let's not pretend that we think that is right. Mal's not proud of it. Book wants no part in it and leaves. Mal wants Inara to have no part in it and she leaves. The rest need work and Zoe wants to retire rich:)
I ain't saying stealing ain't wrong: I'm saying that Mal and crew don't really see it as wrong. Even Inara, while used to more conversation and somewhat less petty theft and getting hit with pool cues, still has no quams about stashing stolen money in her bra.
And Inara left for a lot of reasons, but Mal's thievery, I reckon, was the least of them.
And Book? Why did he leave? Do we even know?
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
I must side with Asarian on this.
Did Robin Hood and his band consider themselves to be WRONG? Percieved as criminals by the bourgeous and the sheeple, yes, but WRONG? I think not. They surely understood clearly that Nottingham Sheriff was WRONG, he was the real crook.
It may be argued that much of today's politics is based on which crooks proclaim that the real crooks are the ones in office declaring the true heroes are crooks.
Does Mal & crew know that Alliance goons and sheeple view them as crooks? yep. Do they consider themselves to be WRONG because they have not bowed down to the corruption of the murderous Alliance and Parliament, and remove needed supplies from the overflowing stockpiles of the greedy and provide instead to the needy (or those willing to pay)? I don't see that.
And, umm, they're wrong because they drive up the costs of the needed items the Alliance is overflowing with, even thought the stated "company policy" of the Alliance is that they will provide to all the worlds of the verse - but in reality are hording the goodies just for themselves, the Core folk. Get real. Concerned about the cost ratios of the crooks who are screwing the Rim folk, good job.
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Robin Hood as Mal Hood is a flawed analogy. Robin Hood stole from the rich and gave to the poor and lives in Sherwood Forest.
Mal steals from anyone and fuels and feeds his crew, and stays in fancy hotels, when not on Serenity.
Those huddled on the floor in the Lilac Station looking intently at their bellybuttons would most likely perceive Mal and Jayne as being bad guys, like Jayne himself says.
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I didn't laugh. I was like "Can...they do that?"
Honestly, for sudden violence in the 'verse, it's one of the cringe-worthy for me.
When Mal shoots the Alliance plant with a mind to take River off Serenity without even breaking stride, now that was ALMOST a laugh moment. It was more "hey that was cool, I guess..."
But for some reason, Crow seemed more realistic through the absurdity. Showed us a non-robin hood moment for all involved, because it wasn't against Alliance, just a regular old power struggle---dirty things do in fact get done behind the scenes. Makes you remember that even when you try to play fair, sometimes dirty things have to get done behind the scenes.
Unlike shooting the Alliance goon, however, I think he had to do it. Niska is way scarier than alliance, while being more campy, so I dunno. I'm finding that Joss and his team of wackos seems to like improbable combinations. Which is fine with me.
Going for a ride.
Another Sky
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"I think that quote from Mal about his work being "honest" is in the context of Inara's work somehow NOT being honest. He sees her work as leading people on. Maybe there's some truth to that, but I'm not here to judge either of them.
So he feels his work is more honest than Inara's work. I don't think it nececssarily follows that he thinks his work is morally justifiable, or that he thinks his work makes him a "good guy." If anything, I suspect he thinks of himself as a murdering heartless thief, and his work is all wrapped up in that. I think he's very much aware that he's a criminal, he wishes he wasn't a criminal, and Inara's social position makes him feel just how low he is all the worse. And I also think, if he felt like he had any other option, this wouldn't be his job of choice. But he thinks he's mostly dead inside, and won't accept anything that the Alliance considers legal, so what else is there for him? Worst case scenario, he gets shot, and while he's not suicidal, I get the feeling he doesn't really care if he were to die. "--Bytemite
The "petty thief" context is a good observation, Bytemite. Mal understands his low social position, and I think it's one of the things that needles him so when he's forcibly contrasted with somebody like Inara or even Badger--in Mal's mind, they're degraded by their jobs also, in denial about implications of said job, therefore dishonest (therefore connected with criminality), and yet they posess "delusions of standing"---hurts worse when the rest of society believes that too. Course it comes in handy when something like the Train Job goes south and Inara can sashay in and waltz them out.
I also get the oddest feeling that Mal can't help himself from playing fair, mostly, due to the way he was raised, but he hates it half the time and wonders where it gets him anything, being an 'honest' thief. Guess what he's trying to say by describing himself that way is that even though he may habitually break the law, he tries to not be too hypocritical, which in his eyes, is far worse than crime.
Mal's hypocrisy sensor (for others, anyway) is off the chart--just check out the things he says to, most notably, Book, Inara and Simon.
Going for a ride.
Another Sky
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Umm, stealing from a company’s supply will drive up the demand for replacement and cause higher cost for anyone rich, poor, rim, or core. Higher costs are always absorbed by the buyer or the drone worker as you say.
How is having well stocked needed Medical supplies at major hospitals hording supplies for the bad nasty Alliance people? The Alliance provided the medicine that Mal stole in The Train Job. In the original script he was not to return it. And, Mal sells what he steals on the Black Market in War Stories, how is this helping the needy get the supplies for a fair price? All are making a profit off the needy, rich or poor.
I just don’t see how you can consider Mal’s actions heroic in these scenarios. And, all I'm saying is I don't think he considers himself heroic either.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Umm, stealing from a company’s supply will drive up the demand for replacement and cause higher cost for anyone rich, poor, rim, or core. Higher costs are always absorbed by the buyer or the drone worker as you say.
How is having well stocked needed Medical supplies at major hospitals hording supplies for the bad nasty Alliance people? The Alliance provided the medicine that Mal stole in The Train Job. In the original script he was not to return it. And, Mal sells what he steals on the Black Market in War Stories, how is this helping the needy get the supplies for a fair price? All are making a profit off the needy, rich or poor.
I just don’t see how you can consider Mal’s actions heroic in these scenarios. And, all I'm saying is I don't think he considers himself heroic either.
In Ariel and War Stories, Mal & co are planning to take from an Alliance hospital, to distribute to Rim worlds "where it is most needed" - yet the Alliance location will have the shelves restocked within an hour, and likely not even notice a dent in supply - how is this NOT hogging the supply, when Rim worlds need it and don't have enough, and the Core practically has more than they know what to do with - how can you justify that as a balanced and fair distribution system? And the Rim worlds "black market" will be paying a reduced cost - instead of the pharaceuticals charging 5-10 times their cost.
Regarding the profit, pricing decision of distribution, this was discussed at length in War Stories with Mal, Wash, Zoe, and the decision to not cut out the middleman which would develope enemies where they had none.
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