Poll: When Crow goes through Serenity's engine...

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Thursday, March 5, 2009 18:50
VIEWED: 13685
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PLATONIST

Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:21 PM

River could have easily stayed on the ship in both of these instances with Kaylee and Wash. Mal's lived in the black long enough to know that shit happens, like Reavers showing up or ‘violence may ensue”. And, I never get the impression that Mal apologizes at the end of "The Other Half", it's not really implied. He knows she's a reader, welcomes her to the crew as a reward for a kill well done and asks her if she understands her role. He doesn't inquire to how she's "feeling". He lets her know what his expectations are if your going to be useful to him. Mal's not that sensitive or fuzzy and he needs to maintain control as Captain so I really don't see an apology for his actions. He’s the Captain, he doesn’t need to.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:53 PM

Oh, he'll never outright apologize, no, that wouldn't be at all captainy. But he's not completely without social tact. Remember in War Stories, when he checks on Simon to see if he was all right using a gun? It's sort of the same situation. And after he insults Inara to the Shepherd in the pilot, how he asks Book to bring her some dinner?

Showing concern for his crew is his way of apologizing. It's his non-verbal form of "You shouldn't have had to be in that situation" or, perhaps more often, "Sorry I'm such a miserable hump."

When he's talking to River in The Other Half, he asks her if he understands why she was in there with Simon, and expresses that he'd told her to be there because he was nervous about the job. In the scenes with River just before that, we learn that there's an ambush waiting for the crew at the rendevous point. That's why the crew was offered half up-front, which is what immediately put Mal on guard.

He never expected Reavers, because who does? They're like the Spanish Inquisition that way.

So that's what I read into the question. He didn't expect it to go that bad. Why would he be explaining that to River? If you're involved in a messy situation, and the guy in charge comes up to you and tells you he never anticipated everything going so wrong, there's three reasons why he might be saying that to you. One, he's looking for validation for his actions, that he did the right thing. Two, that he's trying to figure out what he did wrong. Or three, it's an implied apology for the mess. In Mal's case, I don't think it's one or two, because for the first I think the loss would have to have been more personal, and for the second, once he took the job things really were out of his hands. That leaves three, and considering the almost father-daughter relationship Mal and River have, that's what I conclude.

ASARIAN

Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Although for the Payroll Heist on Lilac, yup, she's an active part of it... Though I don't think Mal anticipated the Reavers showing up. If they hadn't, it probably wouldn't have been all that traumatic an experience for River, because Mal wasn't planning on killing anyone. He even spares the guard of the secret vault.

Set against the knowledge that Joss wanted to convey that Mal and crew were really "Close to gone," bringing River along was perhaps not the most gentleman-like thing to do, but makes sense. Or, put the other way around, in that context it wouldn't make much sense for River to sit around all day and do nothing. Mal needs her. He needs the edge. He needs to know whether someone is planning on being a hero, for example. The place being hit by Reavers, at the exact time they pull their heist, I'm sure that was a million-to-one thingy, and furthest from Mal's mind. He had no intention to sign up to be a banquet. But they skunk the job, what do you think Fanty and Mingo'll do to them?

Mal needs River for the unforeseen element. So, he asks her, "Hey, little one. Understand your part in all this?" River answers in a manner that's more clever than one might think at first glance: "Do you?" Thereby holding that selfsame uncertainty up to him as as mirror, as it were: Mal may indeed not know exactly what he's in for (though Mal doesn't get it, and just replies with surprised confidence: "This is what I do, darling. This is what I do.").

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:21 PM

I agree with that assessment, although I don't really take Mal's response as confident, especially when he repeats the line. I think that's meant to show that he's troubled even though he's trying to reassure River. Whether he's worried about the job or troubled as a self-reflective commentary, I'm not sure.

I also have to point out that, though the question Mal poses to River each time is essentially the same, the conversation in the BDM occurs before the job, and in The Other Half it occurs after the job doesn't go smooth.

ASARIAN

Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I agree with that assessment, although I don't really take Mal's response as confident, especially when he repeats the line. I think that's meant to show that he's troubled even though he's trying to reassure River.

I'd say you're right about Mal not being all that confident, although I think he's actually trying to reasure himself at the time, more so than River.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:44 PM

Although, using the same parameters I used on the other situation, could this be construed as an apology in advance?

I always read a little bit of tired regret in Mal when he says "This is what I do" again. I've never really ever gotten the impression he's generally proud of being a criminal (except in the rare Robin-Hood-esque or stealing-money-from-slavers moments). He was raised religious, and as much as he dislikes God, I think he still believes in the rules he was taught and is ashamed that he can't follow them. I think it's why Inara calling him a petty thief gets under his skin so much.

Does he regret how he leads his crew into committing crime? Look at how he refuses to let Inara get involved in The Message. I bet he hates that Kaylee is involved at all, because he thinks of her as so innocent and wants to protect her. And Wash, he's not a criminal.

Zoe I'm not sure about, on one hand they understand each other, on the other I wonder if he doesn't feel like he's betrayed their friendship or her loyalty by what he leads her into.

Jayne's already a criminal, no regrets there. River, Simon, and Book were all relatively new to the crew.

When Book steals a vehicle and comes to save them in Those Left Behind, Mal later mocks the hypocrisy of Book's religion and his actions... But I don't get the impression that Mal is like that towards Book all the time. He lets Book preach to the people of Constance at the start of Those Left Behind as a diversion rather than have Book join them in the actual stealing. Was that just practicality, or in a way was that Mal trying to accomodate Book's beliefs?

River falls under the "wants to protect" category with Kaylee, I think. Simon might also.

PLATONIST

Wednesday, March 4, 2009 10:03 PM

I don't think it's a question of whether or not River is useful (see the Alliance on that), to me it comes down to what is best for her as a person who has shown lapses in reality and isn't fully comfortable with what she has unwillingly become.

Mal is aware of her condition. Apologizing for behavior doesn't make it any less unethical. Mal's guilty of using River for her talents just as much as the Alliance or Blue Sun is for wanting her back, so they can use her. His may be cloaked in his freedom banner, but it's the same none the less. That's how I interpretate the "do you?" line from River. What he’s not aware of is how close he’s really standing to where the Alliance stands.

ASARIAN

Wednesday, March 4, 2009 10:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Although, using the same parameters I used on the other situation, could this be construed as an apology in advance?

I always read a little bit of tired regret in Mal when he says "This is what I do" again.

I feel that regret in his voice, too. Perhaps it's more disappointment, really. Spelling it out for himself, that this is, indeed, what he does, pulling heists for that powerful need to eat next month, I'm sure this is not exactly the life he had in mind.

Quote:

I've never really ever gotten the impression he's generally proud of being a criminal (except in the rare Robin-Hood-esque or stealing-money-from-slavers moments). He was raised religious, and as much as he dislikes God, I think he still believes in the rules he was taught and is ashamed that he can't follow them. I think it's why Inara calling him a petty thief gets under his skin so much.

I honestly don't see it. Mal is a practical man. He does jobs. He doesn't really see himself as a criminal. Ripping off some genuine A-grade Alliance foodstuffs, or their payroll, I believe Mal is not in the least bit bothered by that. Finding out he stole much needed medicine, now THAT troubles him, and he seeks to undo it. That's how I believe Mal sees himself: "My work's illegal, but at least it's honest."

Quote:

Does he regret how he leads his crew into committing crime? Look at how he refuses to let Inara get involved in The Message. I bet he hates that Kaylee is involved at all, because he thinks of her as so innocent and wants to protect her. And Wash, he's not a criminal.

Even sweet little Kaylee don't care none about ripping of an Alliance hospital at Ariel. She cares about the people, of course. But as soon as Zoe reassures her they be restocked within hours, and won't even miss it, she's flat okay with it. And I don't think because Mal 'corrupted' her, or even thinks he corrupted her. And nor even I think Kaylee is corrupted, for that matter. :) I mean, that's just what life on the rim is like, for pretty much all of them. Kaylee, in my eyes, is still very innocent. My point being, I wouldn't classify any of them as criminals, really. And I don't think Mal sees himself that way, either.

As for Inara's "petty thief" remark, I think it's the 'petty' far more than the 'thief' that bothers Mal. In fact, I believe that had she called him a "great thief" (and Mal felt she really meant it), he would have been proud, even.

I haven't read Those Left Behind, so I can't comment on that.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

ASARIAN

Wednesday, March 4, 2009 10:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
I don't think it's a question of whether or nor River is useful (see the Alliance on that), to me it comes down to what is best for her as a person who has shown lapses in reality and isn't fully comfortable with what she has unwillingly become.

Mal is aware of her condition. Apologizing for behavior doesn't make it any less unethical. Mal's guilty of using River for her talents just as much as the Alliance or Blue Sun is for wanting her back, so they can use her. His may be cloaked in his freedom banner, but it's the same none the less. That's how I interpretate the "do you?" line from River. What he’s not aware of is how close he’s really standing to where the Alliance stands.

I think you're being a mite harsh on Mal. :) Wanting someone to pull their weight, in general, doesn't equal being guilty of using someone. In this case, I think Mal avoided asking anything of River for the longest time, but today he really needed her, and -- though he may not really have been all that comfortable with the idea -- felt he had no choice but to involve her.

Also, I didn't exactlty get the impression that River felt she was being abused/taken advantage of. Traumatized seventeen-year-old or no, I think she was actually fair excited over the prospect of being included on the job. I'm sure she felt a bit trepidatious, this being her first heist and all; but overall, if I read her face right, she seemed if not overtly looking forward to it, then certainly not opposed to the idea of joining them.

Though I still say bringing her along was a bad choice, as the risk was simply too high, even when it was over River weren't the least bit upset. "I swallowed a bug" is more like her way of saying she had an enervating time, than her voicing how close Mal is 'standing to where the Alliance stands.'

This is just how I saw it, of course.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

PLATONIST

Wednesday, March 4, 2009 10:44 PM

I smell a lot of rationalizing for all the crew’s consent in regards to their criminal behavior. They all know its wrong, as we do. Stealing medicine that can be easily replaced drives up costs. The same for stealing payroll, someone has to cover for that, usually the workers. Let's not pretend that we think that is right. Mal's not proud of it. Book wants no part in it and leaves. Mal wants Inara to have no part in it and she leaves. The rest need work and Zoe wants to retire rich:)

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