Hey, we want to be part of the hate!

POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 02:14
VIEWED: 18566
PAGE 20 of 23

PREV PAGE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 NEXT PAGE

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, January 18, 2009 4:59 PM

Quote:
HK
"There is no spoon" presents the old Asiatic obsession with Nothingness and I was countering that orientation with my own Wicco-Shamanistic (I just made that word up) obsession with Imminence/Fullness/Presence. No more a belief than your Nothingness. Yin to your yang, talking about the same thing but seen from the other side.

Sorry, it was a snark.

I think you mean eminence, not imminence.

I wouldn't say I resent but rather I simply disagree with the indication that eastern philosophy is nihilistic, which is often implied simply because it is atheistic.

As for European faiths, like European culture, there is so little to go on in written text, that it takes a read scholar to get anywhere at all. The best work is probably Lord of the Rings. Personally, I prefer the works of Alistair Crowley to those of Gerald Gardner, which might be in part an eastern bias: Crowley was a Buddhist and Gardner was a devout Christian. I feel the Judeo-Christian principles and language permeate Gardner's work, albeit subconsciously, and that this is actually at odds with my understand of the Celtic tradition he is trying to revive.

Animism is often considered a basic evolution of belief structures of primitive societies. I suspect that it may simply date back to a prehistoric religion. But the Druidic practices of the Celtic faiths, while shamanistic in some regards, also show strong influences of the more traditional pan-aryan belief structure. The very obvious present day aryan religion is hinduism, which is now steeped in ritual over what was undoubtedly the core practice of the seek, but it's influences certainly show up in the zen eastern faiths and as far west as the Assyrian hierarchy, and of course, in the Celtic culture.

Before anyone goes off on the word Aryan, I mean the actual aryans, a dominant culture of central and northern asia around 3000BC, not the nazi fantasy of a master race. Aryan influence in Europe really starts with the Celts in Austria, celtic culture conquered most of the continent. At the peak of the non-imperial Roman republic, If I recall, Rome was about the size of west Virginia, and the Celts controlled almost the entirety of Europe. This is often mistakenly referred to as an empire. There's no real sign of political unity, it was just a pervasive dominant culture. During the Romanization and Christianization of Europe, Celts shrunk back to the furthest holds of Scotland and Ireland. Even the name Ireland is Aryan derived. "Erin Go Bragh" literally means "Aryan Forever."

It's always somewhat annoying to me when people find something fascist or nazi in this. Nazis are/were actually Christian and very middle eastern in their thinking, even socialism is a political ideology rooted in mideast logic. The real reason that the nazis latched on to it was strategic: They needed a support base that would given them enough allies. Even the choice of the Indian Jainist symbol, the swastika, was a manipulative attempt at pan-aryanism, seeking to have India as an ally. This flies in the face of the white supremacist analysis of nazis, also, but I'm way off course. But Aryan culture itself, is a culture, like any other, and one I quite admire. Hitler was neither aryan nor teutonic, nor were many of the allies he ended up with (croats, italians, finns, etc.)

The point being that IMHO, in order to discern the true original culture and religion of Wicca, you would have to recognize both its animist and aryan influences. The latter I can assure you contributed the interwoven patterns, the pentagram, the prominence of the number three, and the reciprocal interconnected karmic ideas. Stone Henge, Kaliak (sp?) and the like are undoubtedly older and animist/shamanistic in their origins.

Celtic culture was displaced around the 2nd to 5th centuries also by germanic invasions from russia. Germanic cultures had some aryan roots but were probably more overall animist, and hero worship, another common primitive cultural construction (see norse faiths, etc.)

I'd be interested to hear your

CANTTAKESKY

Sunday, January 18, 2009 5:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Frem:
I'd rather have an uncivil argument that actually resolves or clarifies something rather than one so bound in PC politeness that I can't even make sense out of the positions, much less what's being argued.

I'd rather have a civil argument that actually resolves or clarifies something.

What I *really* want is honesty. Unfortunately, we seem to have either uncivil dishonesty or civil dishonesty on this board. When pushed into a corner with clarifying arguments, many (not all) RWED'ers start hurling personal attacks, accuse the other party of saying things they didn't say, and refuse to answer the questions or make the analogies put to them. Sometimes they do this civilly and with all the politeness in the world. Still damn dishonest.

Let's face it. Many people don't come here to share and learn from one another. They come here to cathart all their frustrations with the world. They come to rant, not to listen. They didn't come to change their minds. They came to beat on somebody else. Why then are we surprised when hatred spews out of this forum all the time?

There are many minds here I would love to engage and learn from. I would love to have a civil discussion with the intelligence here, but it is so much work to have to wade through the emotional litter to get to those few.

I wish I could start a new forum for those who are interested in civil *and* honest examinations of what all is very wrong with this world.

--------------------------
Dr. Horrible Karaoke

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, January 18, 2009 5:15 PM

Quote:
I'd say that 96% of killers are neurotypical (NT) and are made that way be circumstance. But 4% are born that way and are not retrieved by circumstance.

Sig

No offense, but I don't even want to know where this came from.

I was refering to the case made by the film, which takes 7 hours to make, it's not good for a throwaway line. And, NT usually I think is for Neurotransmitter. I'm not familiar with neurotypical, but I get the idea. That wasn't the point. Those capable of killing aren't killers, that's the point of the film.

I'd say that this is a very romantic view, and I've been dodging this Bundy argument intentionally. I think, regardless of education and functioning, most "criminal" killers are just dumb as rocks. So, probably are most "sanctioned" killers, who probably outnumber the former. Most of our killers in both cases are substance abuse related.

The romantic redeemable sympathetic villain is intelligent and not neurotypical. Society's undue stress and treatment of the abnormal is more of a danger to itself than anything else.

Personally, I've known a few pure psychopaths, and to a one they were all heavily abused as children, and also substance abusers. I also know many abused children that did not become psychotic.

The "Country of the Kind" situation, which also plays heavily in the film is a strong contributing factor. In my own experience, these people tend to commit suicide. The psychopaths tend to be very arrogant and self-supremacists, which is most likely a defense mechanism, and the substance abuse just robs them of natural restraint.

Also, the psychology of bullies, which I won't rant about, because I'm already off topic and there's a lot that's already out there about it, plays into the situation.

Sorry, not taking a 96:4 as an answer. This is deeply complicated subject. If I may throw a way a line back to your, 96:4 is about the ratio of posts on this forum that I ignore because usually they have analysis not even worthy of a response. I responded to this one, so that says something.

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, January 18, 2009 5:18 PM

Can't take the Sky

Quote:
I'd rather have a civil argument that actually resolves or clarifies something.

xie xie

Quote:
What I *really* want is honesty. Unfortunately, we seem to have either uncivil dishonesty or civil dishonesty on this board. When pushed into a corner with clarifying arguments, many (not all) RWED'ers start hurling personal attacks, accuse the other party of saying things they didn't say, and refuse to answer the questions or make the analogies put to them. Sometimes they do this civilly and with all the politeness in the world. Still damn dishonest.

Let's face it. Many people don't come here to share and learn from one another. They come here to cathart all their frustrations with the world. They come to rant, not to listen. They didn't come to change their minds. They came to beat on somebody else. Why then are we surprised when hatred spews out of this forum all the time?

There are many minds here I would love to engage and learn from. I would love to have a civil discussion with the intelligence here, but it is so much work to have to wade through the emotional litter to get to those few.

No comment, I just wanted to quote it because it was well said.

Quote:
I wish I could start a new forum for those who are interested in civil *and* honest examinations of what all is very wrong with this world.

I intend to, for now, I created the serenity rules, and I think that I'll create a new thread here under Frem's suggestion to deal with a side topic, and try out the serenity rules.

SIGNYM

Sunday, January 18, 2009 5:27 PM

Quote:
I'd say that 96% of killers are neurotypical (NT) and are made that way be circumstance. But 4% are born that way and are not retrieved by circumstance.

Sig No offense, but I don't even want to know where this came from.

Not sure what you're saying.

Movie?

Give me the name so I can "edit find" in this thread and read the reference in it's original context. AFA that 4%... longitudinal studies on children from k-garten through adulthood (of course not done here... we're too damn cheap and lazy for that. Done in places like New Zealand.) The percentage may be off, but the concept remains. I've known too many brain-damaged/ you-name-it-syndrome peeps (mostly my daughter's peers) to harbor even the remotest idea that everyone is born with the same equipment.

It IS a deeply complex subject. Things can go wrong that we have not even the faintest notion how to deal with. Case in point: the thalamus (the area where my DD suffered the most damage). It's not just a "switchboard" (the common view), it's like a orchestra conductor. In order for a stimulus to be processed as a whole it has to happen ALL AT THE SAME TIME in different parts of the brain. So it's the master electrochemical clock. If it bonks, all kinds of processing also bonk, and SSRI-resistant depression and sleep-wake disturbances also occur. I'm not at all trying to imply that this is a simple matter.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, January 18, 2009 5:48 PM

FREM

Quote:
Spoon

Ah, Tick.

Quote:
What a perfect display of concept.

Not sure if this was a reference to HK's post?

Quote:
Quote:
Killers are made, not born.

That's exactly my point, and part of the reason I study the work of Andrew Vachss, Alice Miller and Bruce D Perry - cause the process by which they are created is known, and *can* be fouled or mitigated to where you do NOT end up with a Killer.

I concur. I'll have to read this stuff. I have some ideas of my own. I read a fascinating biochem article on the production of certain tryptomines as an encouragement to mating, and the restictions of society which prevent it, and how that leads to a neurochemical response of producing higher tryptomine levels which have the side effect of a tko on the serotonin system, causing intense depression and throwing the system out of balance. I've also wondered if this was also an evolutionary selective mechanism to encourage those who cannot mate to remove themselves, which only works under the model that we continue to evolve even under this imposed social structure, which I think is nefarious and artificial. btw, I find it entertaining watching the neanderthals club each other over the head, and I'm not quite sure what that's a chemical signature of, but I seldom actually read their posts, just glimpses here and there. Just another reason that I avoid sites like CNN, sorry, I had to digress mid-paragraph to encourage no one to read this sentence.

Quote:
Ergo, I strike before the process is complete and sandbag it, and with limited resources the best point of intervention for maximum gain is places that practically create em by assembly line - i.e. behavior mod and boot camp facilities.

I still don't get which institutions you are referring to, I mean, just generally, public school? rehab centers? Juvie? foser care? gangs? A lot of institutions might fit your above description.

this is one of my concerns with the assembly line, my main concern is that it produces unproductive morons. I don't think of myself as smarter than other people, while I tend to excell at thing at which they fail, I've come more to the point of view that most people simply did not escape the programming. I have the benefit of no education. This prevents me from knowing things, and thus having answers. As I'm sure I've said before, answers are just obstacles which prevent questions from continuing on their journey. In addition to the misinformation, and the programming, there is also infophobia which is cultured in our education system, and crapophilia which permeates through the MSM.

I can tell you that, given a time machine, and the mission to stop the holocaust, I would not kill Hitler. I don't think it would do any good. I'm not sure it have any effect. I would talk him out of it, which would mainly consist of two parts: 1) Show how a sustainable reliable labor source loyal to germany would result in victory, whereas relying on "inferior" slave labor would lead to germany's defeat. 2) Show the dangers of domestic and international, govt. and corporate concerns who were pushing to hijack the relocation program, and how this would lead to terrible PR for Germany, but also, how you would need extra levels of deception in order to dissuade those interests into supporting relocation. I suspect the effect of this intervention might be that Germany might win the war, about which I'm completely indifferent. I think if Al Gore had beat George Bush, there would still be an Iraq war. Looking at that situation up close, changing the course of those actions would have been very very hard from a US perspective. An afternoon with Saddam Hussein could have done it. Communication is my obsession du jour, but one of the keys I've learned already is that *who* to communicate with is probably the most important thing.

Quote:
Which, of course leads in to how to deprive whatever powers that be of high quality triggermen, does it not ?

Another thing you have to spell out for me. I have this pro

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, Finn? Is this a correct interpretation?
Not completely.

But it’s interesting to note that both you and HK seem to agree with the Christian interpretation of Original Sin. You seem to attribute the Ted Bundy’s of the world to the “lizard brain,” which everyone has. Or every human is capable evil. HK argues that evil is a part of a dichotomy. That both good and evil exist. These are not novel ideas. They have been around for thousands of years.

Jesus,

For an educated guy you have some serious problems with reading comprehension, Finn. Or maybe, and I can't really fault you for this, after 150+ posts in this thread all the folks who disagree with you begin to blur together. Evil, in my example, in the context I thought I presented clearly enough, is just anti-survival urges in the human psyche brought on by post-environmental population toxicity: an emergent attempt by nature to curb the epidemic spread of the human species. But, oh yeah, original sin and dichotomy fit in there, too. Somewhere. I'm sure.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
For an educated guy you have some serious problems with reading comprehension, Finn. Or maybe, and I can't really fault you for this, after 150+ posts in this thread all the folks who disagree with you begin to blur together. Evil, in my example, in the context I thought I presented clearly enough, is just anti-survival urges in the human psyche brought on by post-environmental population toxicity: an emergent attempt by nature to curb the epidemic spread of the human species. But, oh yeah, original sin and dichotomy fit in there, too. Somewhere. I'm sure.

They sure do. You’re just using modern rationale for the good-evil dichotomy.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:51 PM

So anyway, Finn, any comment my post, in which I question the ultimate purpose of capital punishment?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, January 18, 2009 7:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So anyway, Finn, any comment my post, in which I question the ultimate purpose of capital punishment?

Not really.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

PREV PAGE 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 NEXT PAGE