The Assault Weapons Ban
POSTED BY: AnthonyT
UPDATED: Friday, December 5, 2008 17:22
VIEWED: 10930
PAGE 15 of 17
"Try not to get to wrapped up in those figures. Even the page you linked from Wiki stated that the numbers can't accurately be correlated due to the different types of reporting and laws."
And yet - even if you put in a fudge factor of 15% (which would be high) it still puts the US in a very, very bad light - FAR above and beyond any other developed western country. Sorry, you can't erase the differences - or the facts - no matter how hard you try to shuffle them away. BTW that Wiki page ALSO says that murder rates are THE most reliable and comparable crime statistic there is. But, if you want to insist that crime statistics are unreliable, I will take you at your word and remind you of that should you try and claim X number of crimes were prevented due to guns, or indeed, should you try to use any other crime statistic.
If your argument can't stand up to the data, you don't have a good argument. So rather than try to dismiss the facts, maybe you should come up with a better argument.
Media ? I have no idea what your point is. You are the one who brought up the media. I was saying I would do their job differently, and, if you didn't get the implication, that I think they are doing a bad job. By sensationalizing and over-representing violent crimes they are causing people to assume things are worse than they are. And by not providing STATISTICS they let people assume things are true that aren't or that aren't true that are.
As to my relationship with my neighborhood, county or state, I don't see why that matters. And aside from reiterating it at least three times, you've come up with no reason why I should respond.
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Reason you should respond? Let's see, what is your actual experience with violent crime, gun violence, or guns in gerneral. I may have missed something in you previous posts for which I am sorry. But you've given no reason other than figures which relate you to the rest of the US. Not your neighborhood, municipality, or even the direct culture you live in. Unless it is of course your culture, the TV and internet news and facts.
Remember, Wiki is made up of submissions from regular people, rarely the fact finders themselves. It is regulalry disputed and changed.
So if you are getting all of your argument from indirect sources how can you possibly believe it unless you've seen it with your own eyes.
Please exuse me if it seemed I was prying. But it is becoming harder and harder to listen to any argument or opposing view point until people truly invest themselves with what they are saying.
ADD: It was the Nationmaster Stats I was contesting. Got them mixed up. My bad.
But Wiki is still weak.
And thanks for pointing out the shortcomings of the media. Some of them truly are teh sux
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The country is making a big mistake not teaching kids to cook and raise a garden and build fires.
-Loretta Lynn
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Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
But you gotta admit to giggling at the hammer thing.
Hey, I want one of those hammers. I did some thinking when I moved into a house for the first time, of what would be the best case, close up, home defense weapon. The main part of it was built around a hammer/battle axe. Points on both ends, swivel handles with spiked guards, blades on the shaft so if someone tried to wrestle it out of my hands they'd get sliced. You could pound, stab or slash someone into submission. Trouble was no matter what I came up with a gun could always beat it.
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People should be more afraid of knives. Really. They don't run out of bullers, easier to conceal, and their damage is unidirectional. Many people die of less than lethal GSW's because they panic. They believe they will die because they saw it on TV. They learned that GSW's=Death.
By the way, great idea in the Hammer/Axe PDW. I actually drew up plans for a assault shield with a spear hole. Bullet resistant, blocks a doorway, and offers a pokey little reinforcer to get the hell outta my house because I like keeping my bullets for good clean fun.
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The country is making a big mistake not teaching kids to cook and raise a garden and build fires.
-Loretta Lynn
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Hello,
Statistics such as the ones Rue uses are valid to a point, and potentially more valid than regional experience.
Look, I have no experience with getting struck by lightning, but I know it happens, and there are statistics which tell me how often it happens.
Unfortunately, while statistics can sometimes tell you what, and potentially tell you when or how often, they leave you to guess as to why.
Why does a country where virtually every household has an assault weapon in it have less gun crime than a country where only a percentage of the households have guns? Why does the violent crime rate tend to increase after guns are outlawed? Why do Japanese people have a higher suicide rate than Chinese people or American people?
Statistics themselves can be debated according to methods of data collection and exclusion, but even moreso the conclusions can be debated.
Still, pretending that the statistics don't matter at all seems invalid. It conveys the mindset of, "Well, if it hasn't happened to me or someone I know, then it can't be happening." Which is rather close minded.
For my own part, I actually have had some personal exposure to gun crime. Most people, thankfully, have not.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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The reason I give those statistics little credence is that the folk concocting and using them all too often list shot-dead perps killed in the process of trying to do harm as "victims of gun violence" and similar screwery to bulk up the numbers and inspire panic to feed their agendas cause.
I don't care for that crap when folks try to scare me with terrorism, and I do not care for it when folks try to make an inanimate object a source of fear.
Tell me, if you were locked in a room full of guns, ALONE - would you be afraid ?
Quaking in fear, petrified even ?
Ain't guns that are dangerous, it's other people that are - and that being the case, those people will STILL be dangerous whether they're packing an AK or a sharp number 2 pencil.
As to chivalric code as a mythos used to encourage self-regulation of behavior...
Imagine for a moment my mothers dilemma, raising a child noteably hostile to other human beings thanks in equal part due to mistreatment by them and having no emotional bond to them.
Her answer to this was to instill the chivalric values of a knight errant, who did not necessarily need to be part of a society when acting for it's benefit, and it worked pretty well, did it not ?
If you really wanna get down to the basest root of why our society and culture is so vile, you need look no farther than how we treat our children and the (*gag, hack*) "values" we instill in them, that wonderful stuff like racism, sexism, hate, avarice, suppression of human feelings and behavior, rewarding and encouraging sociopathic behavior as a learned protective measure, etc etc etc
No matter what we give lip-service to, what we REALLY teach them is our example, isn't it ?
The very worst of it however is forcing them to suppress their own human feelings, nature and empathy in order to survive this hell we call a society, cause the more you suppress that, the more warped the form in which it finally expresses itself, and it WILL express itself, the same way a tree root does to a sidewalk.
I *know* where the root of this problem lies, it's something I spend nearly every moment I can spare to do so - trying to mitigate or address in useful fashion.
And in the meantime, I very much plan to defend my right to protect self, home and hearth from the end results of the twisted monster factory we've distorted childhood into here in the US.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Except...why should I register my gun when the gangbanger down the street doesnt?
You register so the police won't harass you. You stay off their radar so they can go after the unregistered gangbanger. At least that's the theory.
Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Why should I settle for a revolver when the stick-up men can use an AK?
I think you're pretty well f*cked if you come up against people with AKs - you may buy some time but you will eventually end up with your empty gun scenario. If you have people armed like that in your neighborhood I'd seriously consider moving - no joke.
Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Why should I make myself publicly known to the government as owning a weapon, when none of the political/sports/movie figures do?
They should have to register, plain and simple.
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Quote:
For my own part, I actually have had some personal exposure to gun crime. Most people, thankfully, have not.
Too right and well said Anthony.
Numbers do matter. But if I am discussing a big matter such as this I don't want numbers of people I may never have contact with, that don't effect me, and aren't in my immediate vicinity. Proper threat assessment is pretty important to me. If the numbers were a concern to me I might fight to own actual "Assault Weapons". But it is wrong to require such things with the relative amount of peace there is around me. It should be the same for folk with little or no threat of bad things happening to them.
This is what I am looking for. Personal exposure and experience. I can talk to a Mall Ninja all day about battle tactics and weapons and go home with one absolute truth; he/she had no idea what they are talking about. But if I am to talk tactics and weapons with combat veterans their truth lays with their personal exposure and experience.
There are too many people on both sides of the argument who are merley talking through their asses about things they know nothing about.
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The country is making a big mistake not teaching kids to cook and raise a garden and build fires.
-Loretta Lynn
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" Let's see, what is your actual experience with violent crime, gun violence, or guns in general."
I've lived and worked in very bad neighborhoods that looked like your typical slum. I've been seriously stalked on the street three times, assaulted (beaten up) on the street once, had my home broken into (while I was at home) once, had my home broken into (while I was away from home) several times ... and that's not counting daily low level harassment and intimidation. That was across the country from where I live now.
I now live in a neighborhood that doesn't look like your typical slum, in fact it looks old-town settled, serene and well-kept. But talking with my neighbors, over the last 6 months they ALL had attempted night-time break-ins while they were home.
I also know people who live in those 'drive-by' neighborhoods so I now what it's like, at least second-hand.
I lived a fair bit in Toronto, Canada, and spent some time visiting other towns and cities in the province.
My experience is that Canada is far, far safer than anywhere else I've ever lived. A female can walk the streets alone at 3 AM and not just feel safe, but be safe. I didn't feel that way in my slum-neighborhood even at 10:00 AM (when one of the stalkings and attempted kidnappings occurred), nor do I feel that way in my quaint neighborhood after dark, even at home.
In sum, the US is far and away the most threatening and violent culture I've experienced.
And, not surprisingly, that experience is reflected in the statistics.
Though how my first-hand experience adds to or subtracts from the statistics is beyond me. Because those statistics are simply the documented and compiled first-hand experiences of many people, and they shouldn't be trivialized.
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"People should be more afraid of knives. Really."
Not really. I worked in a county ER in one of those slum type neighborhoods. Guns are far worse.
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