The role of pyschopathy in modern society.
POSTED BY: Fremdfirma
UPDATED: Monday, September 29, 2025 19:26
VIEWED: 9758
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Where DID that forty hour work week come from, ehe ?
As well as lunch hours, breaks, vacations, paid overtime, bereavement time, etc.
Next time you get paid time-and-a-half for working more than your 40 hours, or you get paid time off to attend your father's funeral, be sure to thank a union member instead of spitting on him.
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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Gotta do it.
Someday I want to run away
To the world of midnight
Where the darkness fill the air
Where it's icy cold
Where nobody has a name
Where living is not a game
There, I can hide my broken heart
Dying to survive
There, no one can see me cry
The tears of my lonely soul
I'll find peace of mind
In the dark and cold world of midnight
.....
It's from Episode 15 of Black Lagoon, the end of a seriously disturbing arc that's actually related to the subject of this thread.
(WARNING: *NOT* for the faint of heart)
Having just watched it, I wanna say something, but ain't sure how - the arc covers everything from how they come to be, to how dangerous they are, all the way to how much of a heartbreaking waste it is for folk to let it happen.
It's a mark against us as human beings that in the real world, such stories are not as rare as they should be.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Hello,
If you all don't mind me advocating for the devil, I'd like to propose that what you are referring to as sociopathy and psychopathy sounds a lot like:
"People who can do what is necessary to achieve their objectives and/or thrive in difficult circumstances."
In which case, 'sociopathy' and 'psychopathy' sound a lot like survival traits to me. Seems to me the French and the Soviets might have benefitted from a 100% fire rate rather than a 20% fire rate amongst its front-line riflemen when fighting off a Nazi invasion. It might have saved them a lot of grief.
When you bandy about words like 'sociopath' and 'psychopath,' you end up creating an impression of ruthless evil, but you may actually be describing efficiency in action.
I would like to propose that there may be people who can do what is necessary to survive and thrive, who seem to meet your definition of sociopath and psychopath, but who do not actively seek the course of greatest human suffering.
I honestly believe that the military (and indeed society at large) contains efficient killers who are also great husbands, fathers, and friends. People who can execute a perceived threat, but would prefer to be shaking someone's hand rather than chopping it off.
I think there are people who might be labeled a deviant personality by an indiscriminate observer, but who simply have the valuable capacity to set aside their emotions long enough to take the actions necessary for their survival, and the survival and well-being of their people.
Is that possible?
Because it seems to me that the 80% of soldiers who were incapable of firing their weapons even to save themselves and their friends... they are going to be selected for removal from the gene pool if they ever encounter a threat that can't be reasoned with.
--Anthony
P.S. It is actually heartening to me to hear the theory on 'learned' sociopathy or psychopathy. It suggests that those of us without the predisposition might be able to learn how to protect ourselves and our loved ones in the face of violence, hopefully without self-destructing our sanity.
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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The French actually actively TRIED that once, it didn't work out to well in reality, but the concept was there.
Hardly. A revolution is a way of one frustrated ruling class subjugating the desires of the downtrodden to replace the current ruling class. Violent revolutions tend to produce poor systems in practice simply because they're instigated by the same sort of people that they're replacing.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Anthony - Ya might wanna do a bit more research on the topic, cause what defines a sociopath as opposed to someone who, as you say "can do what must be done", is a lack of emotional attachment to other human beings, in fact the lack of even that ability.
As is well known amongst army "five percenters" there's no encouragement to support their fellow troops for this reason, and while they are capable of mercilessly cutting down the enemy, unspoken military SOP is NOT to promote known five-percenters to command positions due to the really obvious potential for disaster looming there.
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I think there are people who might be labeled a deviant personality by an indiscriminate observer, but who simply have the valuable capacity to set aside their emotions long enough to take the actions necessary for their survival, and the survival and well-being of their people.
Is that possible?
Absolutely, but those people are not by any definition sociopathic, simply by merit of the fact that they have those emotional capabilities.
And that is the key difference, a true sociopath is pure predator, by a combination of physical, chemical, genetic and environmental factors, utterly incapable of feeling emotion for another human being.
What defines is for me behaviorally is the intent to advance their own cause regardless of harm done to others, or even delighting in the harm done to others, because those others... are just mere objects to them, they don't have a concept of "people", it's alien to their way of thinking, all they see is potential resources, which they move to exploit, or potential resistance, which they move to eliminate.
But they don't never, EVER see you as a person, they can't, it's just not in them.
Now as for compensated, there's a couple ways that splits.
Firstoff, you have folks with most of the physical, chemical, genetic and environmental factors present, but not a sufficiency to cause this, and usually some internal or outside factor in place early enough to cause an alternate development.
Most have a damaged or crippled ability to bond with other humans, but due to the perversities of human nature, that lack often causes them to try all the harder, and much of their aberrant behavior comes from feelings of frustration and alienation rather than avarice or malice.
They also tend to be emotionally stunted, which may cause they to react differently to emotional events, that's highly dependant on the individual, of course.
Second, you have folks with just a few of the factors present, and barring any intensive-trauma "trigger" events during the developmental period, generally wind up as "normal" as anyone really does, barring an odd quirk of behavior here and there.
And third, you have folks with NO factors present whatever, who are displaying the classic behavior because that it what they have been "taught", regardless of whether it was intentional or not, is the proper behavior to be admired, respected and successful in our society.
It's that third group that concerns me the most, since public school seems to produce them in droves, all it takes is one popular sociopath allowed to roam free cause they are popular or have wealthy, politically/socially connected folks, and you get a whole pack of emulators, who's behavior DOES calcify significantly in the post-puberty ages.
Side note: Why "gangsta" culture is so dangerous is also directly related to that same phenomena, learned sociopathy included.
There's a huge difference, Anthony, between doing what one has to in order to survive, and doing harm to others for personal gain or even entertainment.
It's that critical difference, which the deciding factor.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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A revolution is a way of one frustrated ruling class subjugating the desires of the downtrodden to replace the current ruling class. Violent revolutions tend to produce poor systems in practice simply because they're instigated by the same sort of people that they're replacing.
I don't buy that - while I admit that this is often the case, I will not accept that it is ALWAYS the case.
Counterpoint: Anarchist Catalonia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_Catalonia
Very complicated situation, true - but when fighting what (to them) amounted to a five front war, they did pretty well, all things considered.
One might take that as every other faction being wanna-be ruling classes, freaking out at the dire threat of people who wanted NO ruling class.
Sure explains why even their "allies" turned on em, doesn't it ?
-Frem
Dame Vaako: "You don't pray to their god, you pray to no god, or so I hear."
Aereon: "Elementals... we calculate."
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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I don't buy that - while I admit that this is often the case, I will not accept that it is ALWAYS the case.
Counterpoint: Anarchist Catalonia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_Catalonia
Very complicated situation, true - but when fighting what (to them) amounted to a five front war, they did pretty well, all things considered.
One might take that as every other faction being wanna-be ruling classes, freaking out at the dire threat of people who wanted NO ruling class.
Sure explains why even their "allies" turned on em, doesn't it ?
Now explain to me where I said always rather than tends too.
Specifically you mentioned the French Revolution, after which France ended up as a what?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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AnthonyT
If a sociopath is a person who does what must be done in order to survive - then sociopaths should all be super-cooperative.
Somehow when the issue of 'survival' comes up it automatically gets assumed to be about deadly competition between individuals. But survival - especially of the next generation, and the next, and the next ... (which is where evolution functions) - can be enhanced by cooperation and mutualism.
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Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.
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You know Frem, there's a lot of good research coming out of the US on social cooperation. It took me no time at all to find these, I could have posted more, but I'm on my lunch break.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041007085415.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/07/020718075131.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080319142358.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/12/051220182334.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/11/041129111632.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080501163455.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070121162756.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070614151757.htm
OTOH, many EARLY US studies which you cite were based on even earlier European studies and theories - alpha males, social Darwinism, Freud and his theory of the id, to point out a few.
It wasn't until the 1970's that social cooperation began to be examined by serious academics pretty much anywhere. And that led to game theory and mathematical modeling on the survival benefits of cooperation, on searches for brain areas and functions that specialize in cooperation etc.
Which is not to say that some other societies aren't more cooperative than the US. But the US isn't the exclusive purveyor sociopathy, and those other countries aren't the exclusives purveyors of cooperation and trust, either. If you look back at the authoritarian paper, you'll see that even pacific Canada has its share at the end of the bell curve.
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Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.
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And a final reply for now - anyone who says homosexuality is a human social condition just needs to look at the research and observations of animal homosexuality. And there you will see its biological roots.
The same could be said about sociopathy. Now, we will never be able to go up to a chimp and ask - and how did that make you feel ? But there are wild chimps that seem to be randomly violent to the weak and helpless, to the point of appearing intentionally cruel. And they will do that even when peaceability would gain them so much more.
As for the other chimps, if the miscreant is smaller, he (I've only seen males behave like that though there might be females as well) will be marginalized. If he's big and strong and somehow attains 'leader' status he'll be -- overtly endured and covertly undermined. Yep, those females and other males will sneak off for quiet time together.
The main difference I see between us and chimps is that we set up structures that carry forward beyond any individual. Their sociopathy doesn't die with them. But that gets into the topic of the baboons and what does it take to revamp a society, which is too long for me to go into now.
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Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.
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