South Ossetia: Defense against ethnic cleansing, or invasion? (Turns out, Georgia fired missiles first. it was self defense)
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Sunday, August 23, 2026 15:28
VIEWED: 18520
PAGE 13 of 28
Quote:Now I think I'm closer to fully understanding your reasoning...but we didn't go in there to free anyone, we went in because of his world-threatening WMD...the mission statement morphed, I guess...
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I actually believe the war may very likely save lives. In fact over a 10 year period 1.2 to 1.5 million people died in Iraq due to sanctions according to the UN (or Hussein’s mistreatment of those sanctions.) That’s 0.6 to 0.75 million in 5 years - the same time we’ve been in Iraq, during which time far fewer then that have died. So we already have a net lives saved.
Quote:Umm..because it's an untenable
You see, I can paint you as a son of a bitch for being against the war. So why do you think I don’t accuse you of being callous of human life because you don’t support the war?
position?
Or 'cause you're being civil, more likely.http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/24/earlyshow/main1649689.shtml
This 2006 article shows both sides of it, I think. I just don't believe an invasion was the way.
BTW, thanks for hashing this out, I appreciate it.
Chrisisall
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Quote:Yep, you always got a good reason for killing. Except...if we had let UNMOVIC do their job, sanctions would have been lifted. It was in the works. So that reasoning falls down.
I actually believe the war may very likely save lives. In fact over a 10 year period 1.2 to 1.5 million people died in Iraq due to sanctions according to the UN (or Hussein’s mistreatment of those sanctions.) That’s 0.6 to 0.75 million in 5 years - the same time we’ve been in Iraq, during which time far fewer then that have died. So we already have a net lives saved.
Magic Eightball says Try again.
Mmmm.... BTW that special hell... it's warmin' up fer ya!
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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Quote:
Well this is nothing new. The Anti-War Philosophy has always been one that is prone to hateful fanaticism.
I think the exact same thing could be said of the Anti-Choice Philosophy.
[quote[This is the reason why hippies spat in the face of soldiers coming home from Vietnam.
And the same can be said of the reason why right-wing nutjobs set off bombs at women's health clinics.
Quote:
You don’t agree with the Iraq War, which is a perfectly reasonable position to take, but then you take people that you think feel that the Iraq War was necessary and you paint them as feeling that way to satisfy from need for killing or uncaring of human life, because you don’t want to accept their point of view, which is completely unreasonable.
You do agree with the Iraq War, which is a perfectly... well, I find it perplexing, but to each his own... position to take, but then you take people that you think feel that the war was unnecessary and you paint them as un-American, unpatriotic, and feeling that way to satisfy the need to justify the killing, because you don't want to accept their point of view, which is completely unreasonable.
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia
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Quote:The reasons why we went into Iraq had more to do with Hussein pissing off the West then anything to do with saving Iraqis. Nonetheless, based on the track record of the last twelve years we did end up saving lives. Now no one can know what might have been, but no reasonable rational person can accuse me of being callous towards human life once they understand my position, whether they agree with it or not. Some people, like Sigynm, however aren’t interested in what I think, only in hating me because I don’t think what they think. I know that you prefer Signym’s point of view to mine and that you probably don’t agree with me. I have no problem with that, but I ask that you don’t take Sigynm hatred of others for their opinions along with her point of view.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Now I think I'm closer to fully understanding your reasoning...but we didn't go in there to free anyone, we went in because of his world-threatening WMD...the mission statement morphed, I guess...
Quote:There’s no doubt that invasion was the worst possible option, but every other option required faith in the system, which we didn’t have. We couldn’t trust weapon’s inspectors, because they had been lead around by Hussein too many times. We couldn’t trust the UN because the UNSC had been bought by Hussein. There were options that theoretically were in place to deal with rogue nations like the Ba’ath regime, but we pissed around with our fingers our asses for 10 years and allowed a ruthless dictator to control the process, until we would have to have been stupid to have had any faith at all in the system. Hopefully we won’t make that mistake again, because we’ve seen where it leads.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
This 2006 article shows both sides of it, I think. I just don't believe an invasion was the way.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:I have never done that. That’s your own imagination, so don’t stick that on me.
Originally posted by Kwicko:
You do agree with the Iraq War, which is a perfectly... well, I find it perplexing, but to each his own... position to take, but then you take people that you think feel that the war was unnecessary and you paint them as un-American, unpatriotic, and feeling that way to satisfy the need to justify the killing, because you don't want to accept their point of view, which is completely unreasonable.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Bullshit.
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I think it's pretty clear what has happened in Georgia, it's what the defence community was talking about some time ago during the initial NATO bid. Georgia isn't contiguous with either the EU or the NATO allies, and it's not even in Europe, there's no reason within the mandate of either NATO or the EU for Georgia to become a member. The reasons it's desired are clear though. Georgia, stupidly, chose to thumb it's nose at Russia, by joining it's classical ex-soviet rivals, rather than playing both off against each other which would have been the best course of action, Georgia picked sides. NATO on the other hand, has never stopped fighting the cold war. Russia did, actually, but NATO did not. Georgia would be the latest ex-Soviet state to join the encircling NATO forces, which is driven more by a desire to humiliate Russia, show it who won, than any firm military requirement.
Yes, Russia is returning to authoritarianism slowly but surely under Putin. But don't forget why Putin is in and holds power, it's because of the upsurge in Russian nationalism at the grass roots, and that is being driven by us, NATO and the western allies. We're humiliating Russia at every turn, hemming it in and encircling it with a military cordon. What the fuck did people expect to happen?
It's clear what's happened. Russia wanted to punish Georgia for attempting to join it's political enemies, and it's been planning this all for sometime, and using the breakaway regions as pawns, as it has done since Georgia became independent in the early 90's. South Ossetian insurgency has increased, undoubtedly with Russian backing. Georgian troops entered South Ossetia, a perfectly legal thing to do, given that South Ossetia is Georgian territory, and claims of genocide appear to have more truth to them in respect to South Ossetian's against Georgians than vice-versa. Russia played a game of chess, and Saakashvili fell into their trap. Russia launched its forces, which were clearly in place and prepared ahead of time, to invade a sovereign country over a purely internal matter.
But, it's no more or less than what the US has been doing for over a hundred years in south America, or other Western Nations for that matter. There's parallels with a number of conflicts, indeed Russia's reasons for entering Georgian territory, are identical to those given by the UN and NATO over operations in Bosnia. Also, George Bush denouncing another power over violating a nations sovereignty is so laughable, I find it incredible he managed to keep a straight face. Russia has a more credible claim to legitimate operations within Georgian territory, than the US does in Iraq. For those who see, as I do, Russia's excuses for it's invasion of Georgia as legitimate as little more than flaky rationalisations and propaganda, remember that to them our excuses for Iraq are just as obvious. When all's said and done, Russia thought it could get away with it's invasion, because we got away with ours in 2003.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:I'm forced to agree here, Cit.
Originally posted by citizen:
George Bush denouncing another power over violating a nations sovereignty is so laughable, I find it incredible he managed to keep a straight face. Russia has a more credible claim to legitimate operations within Georgian territory, than the US does in Iraq. For those who see, as I do, Russia's excuses for it's invasion of Georgia as legitimate as little more than flaky rationalisations and propaganda, remember that to them our excuses for Iraq are just as obvious. When all's said and done, Russia thought it could get away with it's invasion, because we got away with ours in 2003.
Hey- Pakistan's President just resigned, and someone we don't like might take his place, and they really DO have WMD, shall we invade them now???
Opportunemomentisall
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Quote:Because that's different, man!
I have never done that. That’s your own imagination, so don’t stick that on me.
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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Quote:Really? Where was the Chapter 7 resolutions against Georgia? I can’t even remember there being any Chapter 6 resolutions against Georgia. According to United Nations Law, Georgia has done absolutely nothing to warrant invasion at all.
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:I'm forced to agree here, Cit.
Originally posted by citizen:
George Bush denouncing another power over violating a nations sovereignty is so laughable, I find it incredible he managed to keep a straight face. Russia has a more credible claim to legitimate operations within Georgian territory, than the US does in Iraq. For those who see, as I do, Russia's excuses for it's invasion of Georgia as legitimate as little more than flaky rationalisations and propaganda, remember that to them our excuses for Iraq are just as obvious. When all's said and done, Russia thought it could get away with it's invasion, because we got away with ours in 2003.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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