Don't get mad, it's for our troops
POSTED BY: Succatash
UPDATED: Sunday, May 16, 2004 12:45
VIEWED: 14196
PAGE 5 of 10
Discourse and a sandwich make for an interesting, if not intellectually taxing, evening! 
It's funny. You can ask a dozen people who share the same interests (like FFF) about something like this and you get a spectrum of opinions wide as the 'verse.
One person says it's our duty and responsibility as the advocates for a free world...would we be as faithful to that if someone invaded us and told us that they were just trying to better our lives by making us live their way?
Another says that we're just being the bully on the block when we go in and turn their world up-side down. Does that mean that we should ignore the screams next door as a neighbor beats his wife to death?
Maybe the argument is about how we tell the world to "do as we say, not as we do". Of course, we could say that this fight is against an extremism that would wipe us out for simply existing where as we fight for everyone's right TO exist.
Listen, don't go breaking this down line by line because I'm not attacking any position on this board or making any point by my choice of examples. I'm just trying to say that we're not different from folk anywhere else in the world. We want the same basic things and have the same basic problems. I've seen it in the poorest places like Thailand and Ecuador and in some of the most developed like Japan, England and Australia.
Ain't a place yet I've found free of racism, poverty, corruption, hunger or crime. (Isn't that part of the bible according to Firefly? 500 years in the future and we're still just trying to find a way to live along with the rest of humanity.)
Each of you has an opinion to share and a point to make and that's a good thing. Not agreeing is a good thing. The evolution of society starts with the sharing of different ideas and seeing which get run up the flagpole and are saluted. But success is being open enough to listen to the other opinion and using the best parts to make a place better for everyone and not just those who think, look or act like you. Otherwise you may be guilty of the same thing you demonize in others.
Enough damned moralizing...I'm starting to sound like a gorram Shepherd. I'm thinkin' that it might be pleasurable to find out a little more about what's going on wih that new FF Movie...anyone got a plot outline? 
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ZORIAH:
Thank you for the links.
I was sort of hoping to find something a little more specific to the charges being made in this thread.
Certainly, the situation in Abu Ghraib got out of hand and something needs to be done about it; the problem is that there is little evidence to the extent that some people are claiming. Threatening the use of torture and using it are two different things. As far as being bitten by dogs, I don’t really know what happened in that case. Dogs are used by the military to control prisoners. If a prisoner got out of hand he might very well have been put down by a dog. There is nothing wrong with that, as far as I’m concerned. To claim that that is representative of torture is premature. As far as shooting from watchtowers, once again I don’t know what happened. Perhaps there was an attempt at a revolt, in which case I would have fully supported shooting from watchtowers. Some of what you present is collateral damage, not torture. I've not seen any evidence beyond intimidation and humiliation techniques. It’s possible that things might have gone too far even in those meager regards, but I'm interested in the more specific charges.
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Before anyone make anymore comments, you should be aware of an experiment done by Stanford psychologists in 1971 in a simulation of a prisoner and prison guard environment.
Basically, a sample of 24 college students were randomly splitted up into two teams: 1 set simulated being the prisoners and the second set simulated being prison guards. All of the students were "healthy, intelligent, middle class, males". Again no distinguishable differences between the 'prison guards' and the 'prisoners' at the outset of the experiment.
As the experiment progressed, the 'prisoners' increasing fell into the roles of mental anguish caused simply by being subordinated and the 'prison guards' increasingly stepped up their own 'disciplining' measures and became increasingly brutal and sadistic - all of their own without outside coersion.
http://www.prisonexp.org/
This is what can happen when human beings are put in charge of each other under those types of circumstances when there is no training, when there is a complete lack of discipline, when the leadership fails to enforce proper understanding of the limits of their roles.
The same type of situation likely applied at Abu Ghraib (please do also remembered that the problems were confined to Abu Ghraib with one particular MP company; the rest of the prisons/detention units in Iraq performed in outstanding manners.). The local leadership there failed miserably in getting the MPs in their units the proper training in running a detention center (remember, being a policemen and being a prison guard are different things - even in real life civilian world), these were also National Guard units that do not have much proper training and practice other than 2 days out of every month. Furthermore, the national guard units were also rapidly demoralized from being told several times that their tour would be over RSN (real soon now).
The local leadership there also relaxed discipline and (against Army Regulations) banned saluting, allowed the soldiers to wear civilian clothes while carry weapons and on duty.
All of these added up to a bunch of kids running their own show - left along to their own devise and kept dreaming up 'what else can I do to pass for the time?'. Without the proper training and with the complete lapse of military discipline coupled with bad morale, they were also very susceptable to outside ideas on prison treatments.
Don't take my word for it, take the Stanford experiement within context and read Maj General Taguba's report yourself:
http://wid.ap.org/documents/iraq/taguba.pdf
In particular, on Page 48, read how Steven Stephanowicz and John Israel lend their hands in suggesting to the local units in the different things they can do to 'soften up' the prisoners.
No, I am not saying that everyone single on of them were prone to the behavior. Read the report. It states very clearly that, some soldiers found the behavior repulsive and reported it accordingly. The behavior were also only prevalent to the one unit (372nd MP company), other MP battalions (774th and the 530th) were excellent in what they were able to accomplish despite what the cards they were dealt.
Don't let one single horrific act (acts here) bring down your beliefs in what fine accomplishments the rest of the Military Units are doing there.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zoriah:
For your perusal Finn mac Cumhal
The International Red Cross details Abuse claims made in report to US and UK officials in February
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3700975.stm
If we are set out to condemn the entire US or maybe just the entire US armed forces for the stupid incomprehensible acts of a few, then I am suppose to trust the IRC? These bastards have been drumming up cash and misspending/misapplying them all over the place for years.
Quote:
Originally posted by Zoriah:
The allegations include-
Prisoners were kept naked in cells, in darkness and without facilities
It's called solitary confinement. What's the rest of the context for this particular treatment? How many prisones, was it a correctable mistake, oversight, or a policy to treat all prisoners this way?
Quote:
Originally posted by Zoriah:
Prisoners were held for prolonged solitary confinement in cells with no daylight
I would say no daylight in Iraq might be a good thing. Next thing there will be complains about "too-much" daylight, not enough fresh air, too much dust in the air.
Quote:
Originally posted by Zoriah:
The actions of coalition forces in arresting suspects appeared to go beyond any legitimate use of force
Prisoners were beaten, in one case leading to death
Soldiers fired on unarmed prisoners from watchtowers, killing some
This in particular was a mistake in a mixed up on the ammunition used, the report is filed and the soldier reprimanded. No, it doesn't bring back the dead, but sometimes costly mistakes can be made.
Quote:
Originally posted by Zoriah:
The ill-treatment was widely tolerated, especially with regard to extracting information from Iraqis
Methods of physical and psychological coercion were used by the military intelligence to gain confessions
hmmm... I think the same type of coersion and tactics are used by even police interrogators. They ask you confusing questions, they tire you out, they might not feed you regularly, they might withhold bathroom breaks. I am not saying that I like these things, but what are they suppose to do? Cozy up to you and whisper sweet nothings all the while cuddling up and tell you how great you look?
Quote:
Originally posted by Zoriah:
The report also says some troops told the Red Cross that 70% to 90% of those detained had been arrested by mistake.
Isn't there a word for this? Oh, it's hearsay..
Quote:
Originally posted by Zoriah:
Amnesty International claims that UK troops shot civilians while under no threat
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3701351.stm
Some Highlights: British troops have been involved in the deaths of 37 civilians since 1 May 2003, Amnesty says.
Only half of these are being fully investigated by the armed forces.
The most tragic case in the report was that of eight-year-old girl Hanan Saleh Matrud, alleged by her family to have been killed by British soldiers who had been stoned by mobs. No investigation was made.
Amnesty highlights the case of Hassan Hameed Naser, killed as he walked near a demonstration where stones were being thrown at a British armoured vehicle. No investigation was made.
CNN's latest article on the investigation into the Abuse by Maj Gen. Taguba
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/11/politics.abuse.main/index.ht
ml
Note this little tidbit:
Stephen A. Cambone, undersecretary of defense -
Cambone said that the U.S. government "made clear that the Geneva Conventions apply to our activities in that country" and said that "members of our armed forces should have been aware of that.
BBC's report of Taguba:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3703751.stm
Highlight - Gen Taguba told the committee: "A few soldiers and civilians conspired to abuse and conduct egregious acts of violence against detainees and other civilians outside thNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Point One, even the US admits many of their prisoners held without charge were rounded up for questioning, or simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, so that would make them civilians right ?
Point Two, The legal definition of mercenary is a civilian who performs a military function. In other words any contractors providing logistic support, communications techs, drivers, security guards, etc would fall into this catagory. In this catagory they have no status or protection under the Geneva Convention.
My point with the previous post is that I feel that stating " it is ok to torture prisoners if it save American lives " is pretty weak, and if it is accepted then the opposite must be applied and it is acceptable to torture Americans to save Iraqi gurellias.
Only the US seems to accept this definition of " Unlawful Combatants " and as a point of law, should be debated in an International Court.
Otherwise there are other International Coventions which would still apply even if the Geneva Convention does not
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_comp36.htm
" Thats not fair !!!!
I didn't even have a soul when I did that!"
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Let's say we have a group of USA Christian missionaries traveling to Pakistan. They get caught up at a checkpoint, somebody doesn't like their papers, and they get their *sses tossed in jail until whenever. While in jail, they're stripped, forced to have sex, set upon by dogs, beaten, and a few are killed.
Are we likely to be telling ourselves, "Well, Pakistan is a violent and confusing place and those guards are doing the best they can suppressing terrorism" or "You know, that's really not so bad, ALL of them could have gotten killed" or even "They were in jail so they must have been guilty"? I think you already know the answer to that question, and some of you no doubt are thinking RIGHT NOW of ways to say "Well that's different!"
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Geee I guess a NAKED unarmed terrified man surrounded by multiple guards and 2 barking dogs was posing some kind of threat hmmm? Have you actually looked at that picture?
The New Yorker didn't publish the ones that show the same man wounded and bleeding and being sat on. I wish they had, I hope that all the torture pictures come out so that nothing can be hidden behind.
I abhor what Saddam and his cronies got up to when he was in power, and I abhor this blatant misuse of power as well.
Cruelty, barbarism, and the abuse of power over the weak and the helpless should be universally condemned no matter which side the perpetrators are on.
Yes, I suspect there will be the usual absolution of blame from the higher ups. The lowly reservists and other personnel who are charged will likely bear the brunt of it and be labelled as 'bad apples'.
Some tidbits from the Taguba Report which point to the fact that the prison was overcrowded with detainees of which many were deemed no longer a threat but where still being detained:
"33. The various detention facilities operated by the 800th MP Brigade have routinely held persons brought to them by Other Government Agencies (OGAs) without accounting for them, knowing their identities, or even the reason for their detention. The Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu Ghraib called these detainees “ghost detainees.” On at least one occasion, the 320th MP Battalion at Abu Ghraib held a handful of “ghost detainees” (6-8) for OGAs that they moved around within the facility to hide them from a visiting International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) survey team. This maneuver was deceptive, contrary to Army Doctrine, and in violation of international law. (Annex 53)"
"24. The screening, processing, and release of detainees who should not be in custody takes too long and contributes to the overcrowding and unrest in the detention facilities. There are currently three separate release mechanisms in the theater-wide internment operations. First, the apprehending unit can release a detainee if there is a determination that their continued detention is not warranted. Secondly, a criminal detainee can be released after it has been determined that the detainee has no intelligence value, and that their release would not be detrimental to society. BG Karpinski had signature authority to release detainees in this second category. Lastly, detainees accused of committing “Crimes Against the Coalition,” who are held throughout the separate facilities in the CJTF-7 AOR, can be released upon a determination that they are of no intelligence value and no longer pose a significant threat to Coalition Forces. The release process for this category of detainee is a screening by the local US Forces Magistrate Cell and a review by a Detainee Release Board consisting of BG Karpinski, COL Marc Warren, SJA, CJTF-7, and MG Barbara Fast, C-2, CJTF-7. MG Fast is the “Detainee Release Authority” for detainees being held for committing crimes against the coalition. According to BG Karpinski, this category of detainee makes up more than 60% of the total detainee population, and is the fastest growing category. However, MG Fast, according to BG Karpinski, routinely denied the board’s recommendations to release detainees in this category who were no longer deemed a threat and clearly met the requirements for release. According to BG Karpinski, the extremely slow and ineffective release process has significantly contributed to the overcrowding of the facilities. (ANNEXES 40, 45, and 46)
25. After Action Reviews (AARs) are not routinely being conducted after an escape or other serious incident. No lessons learned seem to have been disseminated to subordinate units to enable corrective action at the lowest level. The Investigation Team requested copies of AARs, and none were provided. (Multiple Witness Statements)"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zoriah:
Geee I guess a NAKED unarmed terrified man surrounded by multiple guards and 2 barking dogs was posing some kind of threat hmmm? Have you actually looked at that picture?
I saw the picture, I can come to the conclusion that you have as well. But we don't know that, does it matter if a man is naked or clothed? He can still punch, jab, kick, bite, scratch, maim, blind, and/or otherwise hurt someone just as well with or without clothes. It doesn't make him more or less dangerous, the picture is only one snapshot, we don't know what he did before that or after that. I know what you are saying, but I would very much like to know the context surrounding it and reserve my judgement on this particular picture.
Did you get to read the Stanford Prison Experiment as well? I am curious as to what you thought of that...
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zoriah:
Geee I guess a NAKED unarmed terrified man surrounded by multiple guards and 2 barking dogs was posing some kind of threat hmmm? Have you actually looked at that picture?
The New Yorker didn't publish the ones that show the same man wounded and bleeding and being sat on. I wish they had, I hope that all the torture pictures come out so that nothing can be hidden behind.
I abhor what Saddam and his cronies got up to when he was in power, and I abhor this blatant misuse of power as well.
Cruelty, barbarism, and the abuse of power over the weak and the helpless should be universally condemned no matter which side the perpetrators are on.
but how do you think this happened? were the MP's 'bad people'? were they 'ordered to do it' and they stupidly and blindly followed along? We should all abhor these behaviors universally, but how did this happen?
Quote:
Originally posted by Zoriah:
Yes, I suspect there will be the usual absolution of blame from the higher ups. The lowly reservists and other personnel who are charged will likely bear the brunt of it and be labelled as 'bad apples'.
The local commanders there are absolutely at fault for not providing the training the soldiers needed for their job - heck even the commanders themselves didn't know what the heck they were doing. But I believe truly no one understood that a simple lack and breakdown of discipline can lead to these sort of power abuses. If anyone is at fault, I think it is those two civilian contractors. The local commanders certainly laid the groundwork and the environment and made the entire scenario possible, the soldier themselves were just dumb drones being manipulated, but those two (Mr. Steven Stephanowicz and Mr. John Israel) took advantage of the situation and manipulated the MPs into doing their dirty work.
At the end of the day though, without a better understanding and acknowledging, on that dark part that we, as humans, possess, we can't really get a better grip of the situation and to avoid these types of cruelty.
Quote:
Originally posted by Zoriah:
Some tidbits from the Taguba Report which point to the fact that the prison was overcrowded with detainees of which many were deemed no longer a threat but where still being detained:
These people were continued to be detained because they were at some systematic and sadistic whim of these people or so that they can be further humiliated - they were there because of the stupidity and the inadequacies of the system there. They didn't know who they have, how many, and when some one had escaped. The MP's running that one place were a bunch of damned untrained and undisciplined fools.
Quote:
Originally posted by Zoriah:
"33. The various detention facilities operated by the 800th MP Brigade have routinely held persons brought to them by Other Government Agencies (OGAs) without accounting for them, knowing their identities, or even the reason for their detention. The Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu Ghraib called these detainees “ghost detainees.” On at least one occasion, the 320th MP Battalion at Abu Ghraib held a handful of “ghost detainees” (6-8) for OGAs that they moved around within the facility to hide them from a visiting International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) survey team. This maneuver was deceptive, contrary to Army Doctrine, and in violation of international law. (Annex 53)"
"24. The screening, processing, and release of detainees who should not be in custody takes too long and contributes to the overcrowding and unrest in the detention facilities. There are currently three separate release mechanisms in the theater-wide internment operations. First, the apprehending unit can release a detainee if there is a determination that their continued detention is not warranted. Secondly, a criminal detainee can be released after it has been determined that the detainee has no intelligence value, and that their release would not beNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:So do I. I hope they release ALL the imagines, including those of civilian and coalition personal being tortured, beheaded, chopped up, dragged through the streets and burned to death by men very probably similar to those in these pictures.
Originally posted by Zoriah:
I wish they had, I hope that all the torture pictures come out so that nothing can be hidden behind.
Quote:Yes, well if I may be blunt, this is the real world. And in the real world if stripping a terrorist down to his birthday suit, tying his hands, and surrounding him with armed guards and dogs will get this terrorist to reveal information that will save innocent lives then I am 190% in favor of it, as I imagine would very likely also be those innocent lives.
Originally posted by Zoriah:
Cruelty, barbarism, and the abuse of power over the weak and the helpless should be universally condemned no matter which side the perpetrators are on.
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