Don't get mad, it's for our troops
POSTED BY: Succatash
UPDATED: Sunday, May 16, 2004 12:45
VIEWED: 14196
PAGE 9 of 10
I think what you're saying is that from the "common person's" standpoint, what "we" want is a fig leaf (WMD, democracy, whatever) to cover our real motivations (cheap gasoline) and the powers that be (corporations, govt officials) provide that fig leaf to cover their motivations as well (more money, more power)?
However, I think you mistake MY motivations. You said
Quote:
But look deep into your self. If Iraq wasn't the biggest oil reserve around, how anxious would you be to get this country into a war to save them from an evil despot?
Actually, I was- and still am- completely against invading Iraq.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I think what you're saying is that from the "common person's" standpoint, what "we" want is a fig leaf (WMD, democracy, whatever) to cover our real motivations (cheap gasoline) and the powers that be (corporations, govt officials) provide that fig leaf to cover their motivations as well (more money, more power)?
Precisely. I couldn't (and didn't) say it better myself.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Well, nobody can say you're a Pollyanna!
You've given me a lot to think about, and I have a lot of things to do today too. So, hold that thought and I'll get back here.
BTW, since you seem to know something about tactics and strategy, what do YOU suppose the AC-130 "spread" is? Best I can figure is 200 ft or so.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Good points. Much is made of the precision of the AC-130 because of it's low yield munitions. However, given the fact that this is an urban environment, I think it's impossible to separate out the friendlies from the non-friendlies, especially at night. According to hospital directors in Fallujah, "most" (let's assume 50.1%!) of the 600-1000 casualaties were women and children. Given the population distrubution in Iraq (50% of the population is under 15, and 50% of the remainder are women) this isn't quite indiscrimate killing but it's not targeted either.
The other thing that needs to be pointed out is that the AC-130 is really only good for killing people who have no anti-aircraft defenses: ground troops with light arms. convoys, civilians etc. In other words, it's a people-killing machine.
The only precision munition ever invented is a sniper's bullet. Everything else has a 'kill zone' and zones, by definition, are not precise pinpoints.
The AC-130 should only be used if you are sure that your 'zone' has at least a 90% concentration of baddies. I suspect the military may find lesser concentrations acceptable. Which is unfortunate.
--Ant
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Someone Wrote:
Quote:
BTW, since you seem to know something about tactics and strategy, what do YOU suppose the AC-130 "spread" is? Best I can figure is 200 ft or so.
I've read up a bit on tactics and strategy, but I'm lousy at math. I'll leave that to the fellow further up on this thread who was plotting shell impacts. :-)
But yeah, if I had to guess, I'd say the smallest kill zone possible with that type of weapon is about the size of a football field.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I think what you're saying is that from the "common person's" standpoint, what "we" want is a fig leaf (WMD, democracy, whatever) to cover our real motivations (cheap gasoline) and the powers that be (corporations, govt officials) provide that fig leaf to cover their motivations as well (more money, more power)?
...You saidQuote:...
But look deep into your self. If Iraq wasn't the biggest oil reserve around, how anxious would you be to get this country into a war to save them from an evil despot?
Hey, Antony and Signy, I think y'all are neglecting another very real motive for going to war which I believe united this administration with "the common man," namely: rage and the desire to lash out. In addition to the neocon agenda of getting a toe hold in the middle east, I think the nation was pissed and the 27 justifications for war were just as much a cover for our vengefulness as they were covering any desire for oil. Indeed, I would say that the desire to lash out at "that part of the world" for what "they" did to us was crucial to this administration's ability to sell Americans on the idea. I think Americans wanted war because someone "had to pay" for those 3,000 lives.
It's something of an old axium of mine: People do what they do exactly because they want to do it. Or corollary-wise: the means is what we really want, now let's find an end to justify it. What have we actually been doing over in Iraq for the past year? Bringing democracy to anyone in particular, or killing thousands of people? Mainly the latter.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Sorry about the error, I'm new to this.
I read an article I THINK in the Wash Post which discussed the error rate of 'precision' bombs. I couldn't find it again, but googling on combinations of words and phrases ("circular error probability", "shock and awe", Iraq, civilian etc) I came across some interesting articles:
http://www.earthisland.org/project/newsPage2.cfm?newsID=427&pageID=177
&subSiteID=44
This one discusses the mutually incompatible aims of "shock and awe" and "precision bombing". Now, how the Administration could trumpet both the indiscriminate firepower of shock and awe, and the purported life-sparing characteristics of smart bombs, and how the media could so reflexively parrot it, is infuriating. But the media's role in the duping of America is for another day.
At one point I did a calculation (based on available bombing rates and Bagdhad's square miles) and it worked out to one bomb dropped on each quarter-mile squared.
A google on "circular error probability" will give you the radius within which half the smart bombs (laser, gps) will fall, the other half will fall somewhere outside. About 10% of smart bombs fail completely.
It doesn't take much effort to find that between bombs and ammo, Iraqi civilians took major losses. How many that might be we'll never know, as Bremer shut down The Provisional Government's census.
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I always think of it as the American joy in 'kicking some butt!', even if, on reflection, the butt they kick ends up being their own.
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Witness the awesome firepower and accuracy of the AC130 gunship.
http://www.vampirebat.com/war/AC130_GunshipMed.wmv
Notice how the gunship is loitering over the target area by circling to the left. All of the main guns are pointed out the port side of the aircraft, so that's the main operating mode for the AC130 once it arrives at its target area.
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