Is Jesse Ventura right?
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Thursday, August 22, 2024 21:33
VIEWED: 9077
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:You’re right about that, but this is precisely what the “loons” don’t do. This is why many of these tired old excuses still get a lot of tractions among these people - because they don’t question it. For instance, I still hear people telling me that jet fuel doesn’t burn hot enough to melt steel, but the official story never claimed that steel melted and the loons never bother to ask “why the steel has to melt in order for the building to come down?” They simply use this as excuse to avoid asking questions.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Jesse Ventura is right to ask questions.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
Bingo. Most of this stuff, if you run it through your internal logic filters, simply won't fly. Sure, there are questions about 9/11 that don't seem to add up, or that don't make sense TO ME at my level of education and/or understanding. That, in and of itself, does NOT mean there's a cover-up or conspiracy - it means I have some learnin' to do!
The fact that I don't understand how exactly the towers came down DOES NOT MEAN THEY COULDN'T HAVE COME DOWN AS A DIRECT RESULT OF PLANES FLYING INTO THEM. Yes, I am aware that the towers were actually designed to take the impact of a fully-loaded Boeing 707 when they were engineered. Unfortunately for the towers and their occupants, and a good number of firefighters and policemen, the towers weren't hit with 707s - they were hit with larger, heavier wide-body jetliners.
Why does the metal have to melt? Couldn't it be heated to a point where it becomes SOFTER? In my experience, metal tends to become more elastic when heated, well before it ever reaches a melting point. Take a long beam of structural steel, load it with the load it's designed for, and then heat it with burning jet fuel, and I bet it will deform - probably at least enough to allow it to collapse from its moorings.
And how hot does jet fuel burn, anyway? Has anyone even looked into that, or do we simply accept it because it was on the internet? And, while jet fuel may or may not burn terribly hot, what about the stuff it was burning ON? What about the desks, chairs, curtains, papers, etc. that it ignited? Any of those burn hot enough for ya?
So yeah, I got questions... What I *don't* get is good answers, especially from the conspiracy crowd.
For the record, I believe that there ARE conspiracies in the world (hell, the government knows this better than anyone - it's why they enacted RICO laws! Racketeering and organized crime are nothing but conpiracies.) What I *DON'T* believe is that every little simple thing is part of a vast conspiracy. And finding one structural engineer with no real background or expertise who believes the towers were "pulled" on purpose is about as convincing to me as finding one political science professor who believes in massive Jewish conpiracies to control the world.
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
U.S. peeps sent 58,000 other US peeps to their deaths in Vietnam.
US peeps sent 58,000 other US peeps to Vietnam. Their deaths were largely the result of the international Communist Conspiracy (didn't you see 'The Green Berets'), or in simpler terms, enemy fire.
Quote:
U.S. peeps sent over 3,000 other US peeps to their deaths in the current Iraqi war.
US peeps sent 3,000 other US peeps to Iraq, thier deaths were largely the result of the Intnernation Islamafacist Movement, or in simpler terms, enemy fire.
By your reasoning the Americans who died at Pearl Harbor were killed by their fellow citizens rather then Japanese bombs. Thats silly...also kinda crazytalkish.
By the same logic every non-American casualty of this war is entirely the responsibility of their parent country or NGO...in that sense there simply is no war (since the two sides, by your logic, are not fighting each other) and you can just end your protest vote Republican.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Jesse Ventura is right to ask questions.
Only if he's asking legitimate questions. I seem to remember the days when Mr. Ventura always sided with the cheating wrestler and rooted against Hulk Hogan.
He knows how to play the 'bad guy announcer' role.
H
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Quote:I'd say it means you have some learnin' to do about conspiracies, my man.
Originally posted by Kwicko:
That, in and of itself, does NOT mean there's a cover-up or conspiracy - it means I have some learnin' to do!
They pretty well f**king gorram covered up how inept all the government agencies were that LET this happen, from the intelligence managers to the Air Force alarm-button-pusher-peeps...for HOW LONG was it all in play before a response? In the media, a guy doing a radio comedy show was the first to even put it on the airwaves as it happened, someone named Stern...he knew before the President...
What crapisall
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Quote:Ya know, tall office buildings are designed to not collapse when desks, chairs, curtains, papers, and other office building contents are burned. They know that fires do happen, and they engineer those buildings so they don't collapse in event of a fire.
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And, while jet fuel may or may not burn terribly hot, what about the stuff it was burning ON? What about the desks, chairs, curtains, papers, etc. that it ignited? Any of those burn hot enough for ya?
So yeah, I got questions... What I *don't* get is good answers, especially from the conspiracy crowd.
Oh btw, "larger, heavier wide-body jetliners" are made mostly of aluminum. Yeah, they're heavier, but not by that much. That is, a building designed to take impact from an aluminum plane can take impact from a larger aluminum plane, you see?
So here we have either 1) severely faulty engineering of the WTC buildings or 2) building collapse from something other than fires and impact by aluminum planes.
Maybe it was #1. Maybe they did such a piss poor job that the entire engineering world has decided to cover up this gross negligence for fear of never getting another skyscraper contract. I'm open to this explanation.
Here is another website on inconsistencies of the WTC building collapses.
http://www.nomoregames.net/index.php?page=911&subpage1=why_did_WTCs_co
llapse
(Please note you don't have to agree with the author's answers to agree with his questions.)
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Quote:Or maybe it was the combination of gaping structural damage due to a jet airliner exploding inside the building and the fires that weakened the remaining structural integrity. There doesn’t have to be a cover-up or a conspiracy. It’s not a law of nature. Sometimes when a fully fueled jet airliner crashes at speed into a building, the building collapses because a fully fueled jet airliner crashed into it.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Maybe it was #1. Maybe they did such a piss poor job that the entire engineering world has decided to cover up this gross negligence for fear of never getting another skyscraper contract. I'm open to this explanation.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Why were those American servicemen and women in the line of enemy fire? They were placed there by other Americans who felt their lives were worth some ideological agenda.
Originally posted by Hero:
Their deaths were largely the result of the international Communist Conspiracy (didn't you see 'The Green Berets'), or in simpler terms, enemy fire.
The point is, Americans are not above killing other Americans for ideology.
BTW, there are historians who believe Roosevelt orchestrated Pearl Harbor in order to join the War. Example: http://www.nomoregames.net/index.php?page=911&subpage1=pearl_harbor_pr
oves
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Quote:Yeah, there's also people who don't believe the Earth is a sphere (or more correctly: oblate spheroid). Example:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
BTW, there are historians who believe Roosevelt orchestrated Pearl Harbor in order to join the War. Example: http://www.nomoregames.net/index.php?page=911&subpage1=pearl_harbor_pr
oves
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:You’re right about that, but this is precisely what the “loons” don’t do. This is why many of these tired old excuses still get a lot of tractions among these people - because they don’t question it. For instance, I still hear people telling me that jet fuel doesn’t burn hot enough to melt steel, but the official story never claimed that steel melted and the loons never bother to ask “why the steel has to melt in order for the building to come down?” They simply use this as excuse to avoid asking questions.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Jesse Ventura is right to ask questions.
Why does the metal have to melt? Couldn't it be heated to a point where it becomes SOFTER? In my experience, metal tends to become more elastic when heated, well before it ever reaches a melting point. Take a long beam of structural steel, load it with the load it's designed for, and then heat it with burning jet fuel, and I bet it will deform - probably at least enough to allow it to collapse from its moorings.
Finn and Kwicko have got it right. The impact of the airplane would not have brought down the WTC if it wasn't for the fire. If you look at a stress/strain graph for steel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deformation you will see that the point where steel loses its strength is called the point of "plastic deformation". This is the point were steel no longer springs back to its original shape like it does in "elastic deformation". The point of "plastic deformation" is effected by temperature. One of the primary reasons the WTC failed is that the original impact of the airplane striped much of the fire barrier from the steel columns. The impact also did some structural damage but not enough to bring down the building. The combination of the structural damage, premature plastic deformation in the steel columns caused by fire, and the fact that the airplanes hit a few levels down from the top of the building, all contributed to the catastrophic failure. Even with the structural damage and the fire, the buildings probably wouldn't have collapsed if the airplane had hit the top level of the building. It was the inconceivable weight of the building levels above the strucurally damaged level that caused catastrophic failure. When the damaged level failed the upper levels easily crushed the other levels as they fell.
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I find the whole conspiracy idea interesting. Seemingly when people get to gather in large groups they get smarter and here I always thought that they lost IQ points. That must explain the great efficient system that is the Social Security Service.
Wow, I just never knew that the government could be so smart! Some how they must have planted Arab men that would hijack four planes. Then they planted people on the planes that would make calls to the ground describing what was going on. (All of these people knew that it would be a suicide mission but were willing to go along with it to advance the aim of the conspiracy) Some of the people had to be in those positions for years so that their sudden appearance in those places would not be suspicious. And then they had to have multiple crews place explosives in both towers without any of the people (including security personnel) noticing. They also had to plan that the demoed buildings would throw enough rubble on the third building so that its collapse would not then seem suspicious to the average joe. Wow the government is far more devious and intelligent then I ever knew or guessed. That must be why it takes forever at the DMV and the SS office seems to be filled with the dregs of society.
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