Polygamist Pedophiles and Papal Pontifications
POSTED BY: deadlockvictim
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 01:32
VIEWED: 23329
PAGE 9 of 28
Quote:
I just point out the unforeseen circumstances of some of the positions that you have advocated on this board. In previous discussions deep in theoretical territory several people have pointed out problems with the Frem view of an anarchist society.
You might wanna recheck this point.
All too often folks around here throw sets of people into a category and then address them en-masse instead of what each individual said or did.
What's buggin me isn't just folks addressing strawmen they've built out of a misconception of a point without the courtesy of asking me - but also that folks seem to copy/paste onto me opinions expressed by *others* that I don't even hold, or even oft-times agree with.
So when you wanna address a point you think I hold, do me the favor of making sure I hold it first, ok ?
Just sayin, it's gettin old.
Quote:
If someone took your gun from you you'd try and take it back, do the same with your government.
What the heck do you think imma tryin to DO?
Kick em back over the line in-bounds and hold them to the standards they only pretend to play by, and then only when they get caught.
-F
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Shitstorm extravaganza continues.
First, imma link back to Mister Grigg, who's done his homework and is able to express things I've been required sit on till they came out publicly, for various reasons.
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2008/04/collectivist-child-abuse.
html
Now, one thing that is almost certain given the evidence on hand.
There is a very strong possibility, almost a certainty, that the folks processing the warrant KNEW it was based on false data at the time, and processed it anyway for reasons we can only speculate about currently.
So the whole thing collapses right there - but, having broken the rules and pissed all over the case and any legal excuses they might have had in the first place, do you think they're gonna apologise, hand the children back and make restitution ?
Nope.
They're gonna send em to an environment even MORE hostile.
Comptroller Strayhorn Statement On Foster Care Abuse
http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html
They brought in the serious heavy gun as an expert witness, Doctor Bruce D Perry of Baylor U, and the CITIVAS/Child Trauma Academy.
Might not ring a bell with you, but a LOT of my work is based on his and Alice Millers, so when he offers the word, it carries a great deal of weight with anyone involved in this kind of thing.
And when pressed about it, he flat TOLD them that these kids would be worse off, in more danger, and by far more psychologically traumatized in the Texas Foster Care system than they would be in the environment they were taken from, current accusations of abuse notwithstanding.
When the worlds foremost expert on traumatic child pyschology tells you that you're about to do them MORE harm by removing them and placing them in the hellhole of the Texas Foster Care System - you'd do well to fucking listen to the man.
So, what it looks like to me - with the current evidence in hand, is that the authorities KNEW the tipoff was fake, and held off taking Swinton into custody long enough to get a warrant based on it, then yanked her in to keep her away from the press...
And is now using the knee-jerk media hysteria to cover the fact that the warrant was bogus and all actions them stemming from it, up to and including the severing of custody and funnelling these children into a hostile environment, are without legal authority, nor is seizure of resources, finances or church property and documentation, all of which has been done.
That is every bit as much bullshit as the cops going to a mental hospital and getting some wackjob to accuse you of something to excuse a warrant, and then admitting it after the fact - doesn't do YOU any good at that point, does it ?
From start to finish, the bullshit tip, suspect warrant, and crashing the party with a tactical team backed up by an APC - this has been one long chain of intentional destruction and provocation on behalf of the state on the flimsiest of mere excuses floated on a media blitz that borders on outright propaganda.
Save your knee-jerks and after the fact rationalizations, what this amounts to is the outright destruction of a church and it's members for no better reason than folks in power wanted it done, and if you let it slide....
Some day that's gonna be YOUR church, YOUR kids.
If they wanted to process a real case, by the book, they had two in hand, still do, having declined previously to prosecute them, however they are still within statue of limitations, but now that the evidence has been contaminated by this snafu, it's unlikely they'd be able to go forward with either one at this point.
Get it through your thick heads folk, I ain't defending FLDS or their leadership, I am condemning the State for being even more of a monster, and the damn fools who wanna hand out a free pass to the State to not obey the rules that keep it from abusing any of us at whim.
Why is it that as many times as I have fucking repeated it, the only one who seems to have heard it at all through the media kool aid chugging frenzy seems to be Jack - who'
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I tend to side with Fletch. I’ve never heard Frem say how the dueling warlord scenario is avoided in Fremtopia. Basically, what I’ve gotten from him is that I should have faith in my fellow man, but that only solves the problem if I assume everyone will act in good faith to further the collective principles of the society (and everyone agrees on what those collective principles are), a very poor assumption, at best. As illustrated in the current situation. I’d like to hear how Frem prevents the dueling warlord scenario. How do you avoid the consolidation of power? How do you deal with "evil" neighbors without either allowing them to enact their "evilness" on the innocent or imposing your own views by force? In practice anarchy tends to break down into dueling warlords, except in Fremtopia, somehow.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Spare me your blinkered philistine pig-ignorance you jackboot cuddling symp.
Maybe if you ever overcame even for an instant your utter inability to even hear or see the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you, you might have seen it the first five times it was addressed.
Oh yes, it was addressed*, and instead of debating the point folks quickly changed the subject and dodged the issue entire.
You know, kind of like you're doing here - since this has not a goddamn thing to do with the topic at hand being that we're addressing it via the rules of THIS society...
Which, might I note here, has no answer of it's own to petty warlordism save to justify it by making it "official" as is what happened here, and you could make a case for Iraq as well.
But none of that has a goddamn thing to do with the case at hand, and if you wanna argue that crap do it in a thread more appropriate instead of cluttering up this one.
-Frem
*
Yes, it was addressed, by both me and HKCav, and if you ignored it the first couple times, ain't no point to diggin it up only to be ignored again, especially in a thread where a different matter entire is being addressed.
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6-ix
"Let's see, aside from sensationalistic media reports, exactly what proof Rue has regarding what did and did not go on within that community, shall we?"
Pregnant underage girls ? I don't know how much more proof you need than that. "According to the West Texas TV station, investigators removed 60 children under 17, mostly girls -- half of whom, they report, are now pregnant -- from the gated compound built by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Schleicher County."
There are several ways to address these facts:
They aren’t real (the Rap 'head up the butt' approach)
All those girls got pregnant without sex
The 50% pregnancy rate of underage girls doesn't indicate a widespread culture of pedophilia (and statutory rape)
Though it's all true, it's OK because it was girls, not boys; because it was LDS not Catholics; or some other reason.
So however you want to address these facts as proof of what went on there, the next step is up to you.
And no, I don't feel the need to apologize b/c my post was based on facts.
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BTW this does get back to the topic of 'disappeared' children. What this is, is yet another instance, albeit a large-scale one, of people disappearing their children in order to do things to them that are illegal.
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Typical of Frem, there is no attempt to even address the issue. He simply hides his unwillingness to deal with a gapping whole in his theory with mean-spirited intimidation and person attacks.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Polygamist Pedophiles and Papal Pontifications ... and Islamic Child Brides"
http://www.mideastyouth.com/2008/04/12/8-year-old-yemeni-girl-seeks-di
vorce/
8 year-old Yemeni Girl Seeks Divorce
April 12, 2008In a precedent in Yemen, an eight-year-old girl filed a complaint against her father in court, for forcing her to marry a 30-year-old man. The girl, whose identity should have been withheld for her protection, was subjected to sexual and domestic abuse by her rapist.
“My father beat me and told me that I must marry this man, and if I did not, I would be raped and no law and no sheikh in this country would help me. I refused but I couldn’t stop the marriage,” Nojoud Nasser told the Yemen Times. “I asked and begged my mother, father, and aunt to help me to get divorced. They answered, ‘We can do nothing. If you want you can go to court by yourself.’ So this is what I have done,” she said.
Nasser said that she was exposed to sexual abuse and domestic violence by her husband. “He used to do bad things to me, and I had no idea as to what a marriage is. I would run from one room to another in order to escape, but in the end he would catch me and beat me and then continued to do what he wanted. I cried so much but no one listened to me. One day I ran away from him and came to the court and talked to them.”
“Whenever I wanted to play in the yard he beat me and asked me to go to the bedroom with him. This lasted for two months,” added Nasser. “He was too tough with me, and whenever I asked him for mercy, he beat me and slapped me and then used me. I just want to have a respectful life and divorce him.”
Her rapist, who is now imprisoned without charge, expressed no remorse, saying he was only practising his “right” as a “husband”.
The reason why I added this is because the outrage on behalf of the LDS girls has been muted at best. So I hope that with another perspective people can look into their private thoughts and try to figure out where their internal dividing lines exist - Is pedophilia is OK for girls but not boys ? OK for 'older' girls but not any boys ? OK for LDS but not Muslims or Catholics ? OK if it's institutional but not if its private ? OK if it's private but not public ? And so on ...
And because I can imagine the thoughts behind the acceptance of raping young girls in the name of religion - well it's only girls, and besides 17 or even 15 isn't too young (though 13 is squeamish territory), and besides it's their religion, and what they want to do with their religion and their girls in private is nobody's business, and the government has no right to investigate or enforce it's statutory rape laws, and the people investigated are more like 'us' - white xtian US males which hits close to home - and not like 'them' catholic priests or foreign Muslims ... and so on
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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I think the problem is that we have mixed signals in mainstream society. Example: a couple of underage kids had sex and took pictures. Both are now on the sex offender registry for making child porn. At the same time photo spreads in mainstream magazines show girls the same age in risque outfits. Our culture increasingly sexualizes our children and then we are surprised that so many people act on that imagery.
On top of that as Frem says the way we deal with this is with a sledge hammer. In theory adult couples in this country cannot take naked photographs of each other even for private use without registering those pictures with the Feds along with proof that all parties were over 18. Failure to do so can land you in jail. All this in the cause of "think of the children."
The reason it's so easy to point the finger at the Muslims or the Catholics or ANYONE else is that for most people they are "someone else" someone whose society and ideas we may not nescessarily agree with. Perhaps FLDS are too close to us? Maybe with the long dresses and the God fearing they stray too close to the "Little House on the Prairie" vision some Christian types see as a Godly utopia that we have lost?
I dunno. Like I said I'm an old fart and I tend to be nostalgic for times when kids were allowed to be kids and not pushed into adulthood by their parents and the media.
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Well, if we are going pose this kind of question, I think we should define pedophilia, which is often a loaded term. For instance in the Catholic priest scandal, the so-called “pedophile priests” were in fact largely not pedophiles at all, but homosexuals attracted to post pubescent boys. Likewise most girls involved in arranged marriages and polygamy communities, are post pubescent. I’ve seen 14 year old girls that I was, or could have been had I allowed myself to be, physically attracted to. If I acted on that impulse I would be regarded as a pedophile, in reality however, I would only be acting on the same impulses that would make me attracted to an 18 year old. So we aren’t really talking about pedophilia, a condition in which a person is attracted to pre-pubescent children. What we’re talking about are cultural influences. And there was a time in this country when marrying your daughter off at 14 would not have been considered inappropriate - but the culture changed, not necessarily us.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Fletch
Some laws try to take varying age differences into account. But I think that the cleanest lines to be drawn are if both parties are over the age of consent it's OK (and drugs or other impairment, or force or threat aren't involved), if both are under it's OK (and drugs or other impairment or force or threat aren't involved) - with mandatory counseling b/c frankly you have to believe neither has enough judgment; but if one is over and one is under it's not. Yeah - it's a quick and dirty line - what about the 18 year old going out with the 16 year old - but you set the line then teach your kids where the line is.
I do agree with the media sexualizing children. But as long as the society runs on an 'any profit is good' ethic you'll have that b/c besides violence, thirst and hunger it's a constant hook into the psyche to shill your wares.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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