Polygamist Pedophiles and Papal Pontifications
POSTED BY: deadlockvictim
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 01:32
VIEWED: 23329
PAGE 8 of 28
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posted by deadlockvictim:
ok, but doesn't this go right to the top... the Vatican, the Pope..?
You can take me to task for my limited knowledge of Catholicism, but I have always thought that very little that goes on in the Catholic church gets past the chain of command.. so, in sense, isn't every priest, archbishop, bishop and indeed, the Pope complicit to some degree ?
Yes and no. The Pope does not personally select priests. He doesn't say where they go. A Regional or State leader (Archbishop or bishop) assigns a priest to a diocese. The diocese then assigns him to a parish. Diocesan decisions are made at a very low level. Some of these decisions are made at a state level. Then there are regions, countries, and eventually the top. If a local Bishop made a call to cover something up, there's no guarantee that order came from a region or country official.
---
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Second, do you REALLY think it was necessary to send in a tactical strike team with a goddamn M113 armored personnel carrier to serve the warrant ?
Frem, it has been my experience that law enforcement agencies who have a lot of high-tech stuff (thanks to homeland security), are very proud of and extremely anxious to take it out for a run. They would use that armored personnel carrier to round up stray dogs if they could. This ain't Mayberry any more - even Texas.
As much as I dislike the phrase "Post 9-11", we have to remember that we are pretty much all terrorists in the eyes of the law these days. That mentality will be the undoing of us all, I'm afraid.
I don't disagree on any particular point that you make, except to say that I would like to learn more of the circumstances that surround the FLDS - as a matter of fact, a new book was just announced in my book club (QPB) written by a former female member of the FLDS - the book is Escape by Carolyn Jessop with, (and this is a little spooky for Twin Peaks fans)... Laura Palmer....
Quote:
Escape provides an astonishing look behind the tightly drawn curtains of the FLDS Church, one of the most secretive religious groups in the United States. The story Carolyn Jessop tells is so weird and shocking that one hesitates to believe a sect like this, with 10,000 polygamous followers, could really exist in 21st-century America....... This riveting book reminds us that truth can indeed be much, much stranger than fiction." - Jon Krakauer
... think they're trying to sell books..??
it worked.. i ordered it
coincidentally, Krakauer himself, wrote a book on Mormon fanaticism entitled Under the Banner of Heaven...
ETA: i didn't mean that Ms Jessop was a 'former female' but a former member who is also female....
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Fletch, according to what we have, that supposed witness was neither on their property nor under their control when the complaint was made, at least as far as the accounts we've been given.
There's also the other two cases, mind you, which the State has declined to prosecute in spite of those cases having more substantive evidence, testimony and a witness/witnesses on hand in each one.
I am as yet not entirely convinced this caller isn't a work of fiction, as we have no actual evidence to go by at this time, and it's a damned thin margin to have secured a warrant on, especially when it was executed in the fashion it was.
-F
EDIT: Deadlock, believe me, I could without a doubt give that book or even PirateNews a run for the money on woo-woo-weird events regarding care and treatment of kids, all of which are backed by courtroom quality evidence (given in many cases that is where it was obtained) right down to direct on-site photography or even the surveillance camera tapes of the incidents in question.
Nothing in that book is likely to surprise me, but yes, if it refers to certain events in Utah circa 1981-1985, it's likely to be so downright bizarre as to defy belief.
Those events.. are true, every one of them, I assure you.
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You agree though that telling the church elders of the complaint when the complainant is not under your protection REALLY assumes that the elders are on the up and up?
This gets back to things we have previously discussed. If in Fremworld nobody has the authority to mess with someone elses sick games then you just gave a licence to every asshole on the planet.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And the shitstorm shall begin.
I can say right up front and public is that the State did indeed overstep their boundries both moral and legal
Right....'cause in your demented vision of an anarchist society 13 year-old girls would all be knock-up fodder.
I think I'm done with this thread, because there's no point in fighting the mob mentality when the mob only hears one side of the story and is so infuriated by it that they condone the overstepping of Government bounds and the certain ruination of these children's lives. At least Deadlock Victim is trying to learn more about it and seems to have more than knee jerk reactionary BS to throw out here.
And as far as that comment goes Jongs, I think that's really unfair to Frem. If anybody on this board cares more about children, I have yet to meet them. I'm sure he's got just as many posts about treating them like human beings and not pets, and inside info about things that get done to really protect them. It's sure a lot more helpful to the kids than the mindless cheering on of the Government who ripped all of these kids from their lives brutally, systematically and without discression.
All I know is that he played a part in getting that kid out of an uber-unfair 10 year prison sentence that labeled him a sex-offender even though he and the girl in the video were both minors at the time. How big a part, only he knows, but gorram it, the man is an activist and gets stuff done. Before you throw out brainless comments like to try to discredit the man, at least think hard enough to throw some dirt that isn't so obviously refutable all over the archives in RWED.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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6-ix
You're mistaking what went on there for actions between consenting adults. When you have pregnant girls as young as 13, I think it's safe to say that there was at least one party who wasn't an adult.
Now maybe YOU are OK with pedophilia en masse, but there are laws against it in most states. It's called statutory rape.
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Fletch, it's cases like that where you use a sealed warrant until the complainant is under your protection.
But THAT assumes the State will not abuse such a thing.
(See Also: Cavalry Arms raid for that kind of abuse)
Why do you continually and deliberately misrepresent my take on this ?
Our legal system is not based on a Napoleonic prove-your-innocent model, no matter that it has more or less become that in de-facto form, that is not, and never was the intent of it.
I ain't sayin that FLDS ain't done wrong, by my lights they've done a lot more wrong then they are ever likely to answer for, but in their overblown eagerness to display the power and glory of the State, elements thereof have fucked up the case to the point where a fair and proper trial is no longer possible in spite of the evidence, and that is what pisses me off - is that thanks to that FLDS is probably going to get a pass on this...
Because if they do not, it then opens the door to all MANNER of abuse by the State, which is quite possibly a worse result.
We're talkin about folk not charged with a crime, abuse, or even suspected of such, losing, forever, custody of their own children because of their beliefs.
If YOU don't see a problem with that, I don't know what to tell you.
I want justice too, dammit - but let me repeat this loud and clear, TWICE, so no one can continue to deliberately misrepresent WTF I am saying.
You have parents not charged with abuse, not even SUSPECTED of abuse, permanently losing custody of their own children, simply because of the belief system they chose to practice.
AGAIN
You have parents not charged with abuse, not even SUSPECTED of abuse, permanently losing custody of their own children, simply because of the belief system they chose to practice.
Now, if you don't see the danger looming in that, especially when those kids are being fed into a social services system that has a history of handing them to well-connected predators, sending them to abusive facilities, or just "losing" them somehow - there's not a lot more I can say about it.
Is FLDS guilty of the crime in question ? Absolutely.
Did the Feds step over the line in attempting to charge and prosecute ? Absolutely.
The only innocents here are the kids, and they're not likely to get any say in it, the best compromise on that is assigning them Guardian Ad Litem to act their interests, and I have the utmost respect to those who stepped forth and volunteered their own skills and resources to do exactly that.
While I am thankful that they weren't "Rescued" in the manner the kids at Waco were (and mind you, all of *those* allegations ALSO fell apart under closer inspection) - I am still not convinced they've been "Rescued" at all.
Out of the frying pan into the fire is not an improvement on the situation.
The FLDS leadership and the State of Texas can go f**k themselves for all I care, my primary concern is that this sets a damn scary precedent for parental rights as a whole when the State can use your beliefs as an excuse to strip them from you without even accusing you of anything - and that these kids are being sent in an environment they are not prepared for that stands a good chance of being on average worse than the one they were removed from.
Which is why some folk are involved in the situation, in an attempt to prevent that very occurance - this isn't really about FLDS or the State any more, this is about not feeding these kids to a hostile system likely to eat them alive.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Oh how interesting, smells to me like they knew the report was fake to begin with, and booked Swinton after using it to justify the raid.
I am all manner of suspicious now.
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http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_8969094
Texas FLDS case: Was massive raid based on bogus call from Colorado woman?
By Russ Rizzo and Pamela Manson
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 04/18/2008 09:05:42 PM MDT
A Colorado woman with a history of making phony reports to police has been named by Texas Rangers as a "person of interest" who could have made the calls to a women's shelter that sparked the FLDS compound raid.
Police arrested Rozita Estraletta Swinton, 33, at her Colorado Springs apartment Wednesday in connection with a February call to police there in which she pretended to be a young girl being held in a basement, said Colorado Springs police Lt. Skip Arms.
Investigators also executed an evidentiary search warrant at Swinton's home and seized a number of items that indicated a possible connection between her and calls regarding the FLDS compounds in Colorado City, Ariz., and Eldorado, Texas, the Texas Rangers said Friday in a press release. The items, which were not identified, will be evaluated and analyzed at various crime labs in Texas.
Swinton's arrest came after the Texas Rangers contacted local authorities about a possible connection between Swinton and the raid on the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ranch earlier this month, Arms said. She remained at large Friday after posting a $20,000 bail from the El Paso County Jail.
Texas officials removed 416 children from the sect's ranch after the NewBridge Family Shelter received calls on March 29 and 30 from someone claiming to be a 16-year-old FLDS girl named Sarah. The girl, whom authorities say they have yet to locate, described being beaten by her husband and conceiving her first child at the age of 15.
The Denver Post reports Flora Jessop, an Arizona woman who grew up FLDS and now helps teenage girls leave the sect, said Swinton called her pretending to be a girl named Sarah who had been sexually abused by her new father. Jessop told The Post the first of many phone calls placed by Swinton to Jessop was on March 30 - the same day the Texas shelter received a call from the 16-year-old.
Jessop said Swinton would call her at night when she claimed others at the ranch were asleep, The Post reports. Jessop told the newspaper her suspicions were raised and she contacted the Texas Rangers after Swinton called her saying she was Sarah's sister living in Colorado City.
Jessop recorded between 30 and 40 hours of conversations with Swinton, who alternately claimed to be Sarah, Sarah's twin sister Laura, and Laura's friend, according to The Post. The newspaper reports Jessop said Texas Rangers were able to trace the calls to Swinton's cell phone.
In the February case in Colorado, Swinton is accused of making calls pretending to be a teenage girl "in distress" who was being held in a basement, Arms said. Swinton had told police she was in the "general area" of where she was arrested, he said.
Swinton is charged in the case with making a false police report, but the case has been sealed by a Colorado judge.
Three years earlier, police say, Swinton called authorities in Castle Rock - about 20 minutes north of Colorado Springs - saying she was a 16-year-old girl named Jessica who had just given birth to a boy named Jacob.
She told police she had been molested by a family member and feared going home, said Castle Rock police Sgt. Scott Claton. Swinton led police on a three-day goose chase looking for the girl, who claimed she wanted to give up the baby and kill herself, Claton said.
During the third day of the phone calls, a Castle Rock police officer spotted a woman driving by the police station and talking on the phone, Claton said. The officer pulled over the car, driven by Swinton, whose name matched records from the cell phone she used
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
6-ix
You're mistaking what went on there for actions between consenting adults. When you have pregnant girls as young as 13, I think it's safe to say that there was at least one party who wasn't an adult.
Let's see, aside from sensationalistic media reports, exactly what proof Rue has regarding what did and did not go on within that community, shall we?
Do you have a video of said "pedohilia en masse" as documentary proof that this happened Rue? If you do, I move that we put you on trial for having child pornography in your posession.
Please, show me where the verdict from a jury of our peers exists that there was proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that this was happenening, whether it be by every single adult to every single child or even ONE SINGLE INSTANCE!
Quote:
Now may YOU are OK with pedophilia en masse, but there are laws against it in most states. It's called statutory rape.
Don't you fucking dare throw that last comment at me you smug little bitch. I've had civil debates with you before and some times where we've really pushed each other's buttons but what you accuse me of here with that offhanded comment is pure bullshit of an intolerable degree and you can go fuck yourself for crossing that line.
You and I are through talking about anything unless you retract that statement.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Fletch,
Why do you continually and deliberately misrepresent my take on this ?
I don't. I just point out the unforeseen circumstances of some of the positions that you have advocated on this board. In previous discussions deep in theoretical territory several people have pointed out problems with the Frem view of an anarchist society. As far as I recall nobody has ever disagreed that people of good faith would rather cooperate than fight -- if that was not the case we could hardly have any kind of society.
The objections have come down to two issues.
1) you can't possibly stop power structures from emerging in the vacuum you create. In fact you may well create your own centers of power in the few institutions that you have to allow to exist. The guy running the day to day operation of the militia, the local doctor these folks will concentrate power just by the fact that folks need to really on them. This is before we consider any business of any size or any illegal grouping.
2) The theory doesn't take into account the bad actors that won't play ball. I asked you what happens if the next town over institutes slavery? To my mind you would have to fight them if you planned to stick by your principles. Of course doing that means inflicting your views on someone else by force --- very authoritarian. In this case everything being done in that compound is legal, moral and above board to the folks that live there. Of course it seems to involve subjugation of the female population and institutional pedophillia. However, for these people in this crazy society it's a religious duty and a tradition that if you end it to protect the children will involve you using force to impose your values.
Needless to say I'm interested because the messy stuff, the area where principles conflict and rights smash into rights is the place where you discover how robust a theoretical system is.
Quote:
I ain't sayin that FLDS ain't done wrong, by my lights they've done a lot more wrong then they are ever likely to answer for, but in their overblown eagerness to display the power and glory of the State, elements thereof have fucked up the case to the point where a fair and proper trial is no longer possible in spite of the evidence, and that is what pisses me off - is that thanks to that FLDS is probably going to get a pass on this...
Quote:
Because if they do not, it then opens the door to all MANNER of abuse by the State, which is quite possibly a worse result.
Government is like a gun. Too useful to throw away and too dangerous to let fall into the hands of an enemy. I've always found it ironic that you can say things like "banning guns just leaves the honest man defenceless because the bad guys will always find guns" and not realise that the parallel argument is "banning government will leave the honest man powerless because the bad guy can always exert power."
If someone took your gun from you you'd try and take it back, do the same with your government.
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