Help from Libertarians/Anarchists

POSTED BY: Geezer
UPDATED: Friday, January 18, 2008 14:04
VIEWED: 12974
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FLETCH2

Monday, January 14, 2008 2:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Fletch2

You're looking at people brought up in a large, individualistic and competitive society (even in Sweden). But you could look at the !Kung (in their original format, not their 'settled' drug-addled version) with origins thought to be closest to the original human ancestors - nomads who survived based in little more than the mutual goodwill of the members of each group.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

How many of those people are blood relations though? My grandmother's maiden name was Newton, where I come from almost everybody is a Newton if you go back more than 3 generations. I have an extended family group like you wouldn't believe, and people do treat family differently from outsiders.

I can quite happily believe high level's of cooperation in small groups, especially if they form an extended family group but I think the underlying dominance dynamic still exists and I'm inclined to believe it's very primitive precisely because cooperation offers so may advantages. Why develop competative/ dominant behavior after a cooperative one is established? In most cases it would be a step backwards and restrict your chances of survival.

RUE

Monday, January 14, 2008 2:27 AM

And that small-group cooperation pattern is how humans evolved. It's in our blood. The challenge is to construct a society that translates the dynamic to larger groups. Or suffer the consequences.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

CANTTAKESKY

Monday, January 14, 2008 2:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Then I don't understand the point? If the contention is that government has become the instrument of the powerful then how does removing it help if the powerful can still influence things?

Right-anarchists don't have a problem with influence; they just have a problem with force. Sometimes there is a thin line between the two. But most times, force uses a gun, and influence doesn't.

Quote:
I want your property? I take it and pay off the police force.

First, in anarchism, there is no "police force" as we know it. There is no "authority" to run to for help. Think Firefly again. They want Mal's property, they have to fight him for it. Sometimes, they succeed without much of a fight; luckily, Mal and his buddies are pretty good at defending themselves, and don't get robbed too often. You survive with a good aim and smarts.

Quote:
I have a question. A thief breaks into a house steals the owners gun and uses it to hold him up. Is this the gun's fault or the owners for not keeping it close to hand. Should we ban guns to remove the possibility of the ones we own being used against us or should we just maintain better control of the ones we have?

Think Mal again. Would he blame the gun?

Joss is a liberal, but he created the quintessential anarcho-libertarian in Mal's character. Mal is a good reference point for all such questions. Frankly, I am duly impressed that Joss et. al. understand libertarianism that well.

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Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.
-- Mark Twain

CANTTAKESKY

Monday, January 14, 2008 2:39 AM

Eagles = birds
Penguins = birds

Therefore eagles = penguins.

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If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.
--Mark Twain

RUE

Monday, January 14, 2008 2:42 AM

Still wondering if you have an answer to the fact that that kind of society can only exist as a parasite on a larger one. Something Joss also figured out.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

RUE

Monday, January 14, 2008 2:56 AM

BTW it's not a trick question. It takes a lot of investment to make that 'nothing part'. That means a really rich company. Now a really rich company can keep its wealth by investing in good governmental relations - or assuming it's all anarchy - by investing in guns and gun-slingers. And in effect being the force you don't want.

So help me out here. How does this work ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

RUE

Monday, January 14, 2008 3:13 AM

Still didn't answer the question, even tho it was posed a half dozen times. That's OK. I get it. You have no answer so you have to ignore, avoid and distract.

BTW, the if a = b and b = c then a = c thing is basic mathematics (and logic). You have to be careful to choose and make sure that 'a' really does = 'b', and so on, which I did. And which you failed to do. Good luck with the logic thing. You'll need it.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

RUE

Monday, January 14, 2008 3:17 AM

So here's the question again for anyone to answer -

How can one make a high investment good (like a space shuttle) in an anarchic society ? In which I might add, there are no large dominating forces, whether public or private, so that people really are individually 'free'.

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"A theoretical social state in which there is no governing person or body of persons, but each individual has absolute liberty."

Note there are TWO conditions for anarchy -
a lack of government
absolute individual liberty

RUE

Monday, January 14, 2008 3:28 AM

Withdrawn

RUE

Monday, January 14, 2008 3:51 AM

Bumped to see if there will be any quick answers.

As far as I can see, a complex technological society CANNOT be anarchic, by virtue of the economics of large investment.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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