Help from Libertarians/Anarchists

POSTED BY: Geezer
UPDATED: Friday, January 18, 2008 14:04
VIEWED: 12974
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GEEZER

Sunday, January 13, 2008 6:46 PM

I've been doing some reading along the Libertarian line and think I get the basic concepts: Personal ownership of self & property, transactions based on contract and not coercion, instigation of force against person or property is wrong, governments are thieves/pirates/banditti who take by force.

My question has to do with the other (non-governmental) thieves, pirates and banditti, and their ilk. Rothbard, for example, thinks that the private criminal class will decline under L/A because everyone will have the opportunity to work and succeed, and won't have the example of the government ripping folk off to emulate. I have my doubts about this. There may be a more down-to-earth answer out there I've missed.

So, In a L/A world, who deals with the thieves, etc? The "everybody pulls out a gun and shoots them" answer sounds nice, but doesn't apply to a lot of situations. Some folks can't, or won't defend themselves and their property. Some can't even hire it done. If you capture a thief or vandal in the act, who insures that he pays you restitution? Who decides the amount? If you identify a murderer and he gets away, does anybody go after him?

Lots of interesting and worthy ideas in the stuff I've been reading, but it's the day-to-day stuff that sometimes puzzles me.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:16 PM

I refer you to the online graphic novel version of L Neil Smiths "The Probability Broach", technically it's a political treatise, but it's a right good bit of storytelling in it's own right, and it does handle most of these issues, it's a fun read besides, as a bonus.

http://www.bigheadpress.com/tpbtgn?page=0

If you have any lingering questions after that, I'll be happy to answer em for ya.

Mind that it's more Libertarian than straight Anarchist, but I think it'll answer a lot of it, or at least help you refine the questions.

"Anything is possible if you're free."
-F

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, January 13, 2008 8:38 PM

I would add The Dispossessed by Le Guin to your reading list, though it is perhaps more on the anarcho-communist side of the political spectrum. But definitely emphasizing the anarcho. It's a novel, mostly set in a futuristic anarchist "state." Very interesting. Very, very interesting.

One of the interesting themes which it shares with "The Probability Broach" is an understanding that we won't be getting rid of vengeance and violence, but we won't be dressing it up in robes and calling it "law enforcement" either. If some folks get it in them to enact some street justice, well, that's what happens and the community at large deals with it carefully, fearfully, imperfectly--just as any community in the real world does. Violence is a rupture, but it is no less a part of life.

People want new and untried social systems to solve all of life's problems, but they won't. What I like about anarchism is that it mainly refuses to lie or make up fancy justifications for human aggression. It's real, it often causes problems and it ain't going away--but that doesn't mean it needs to rule our lives.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

SIGNYM

Sunday, January 13, 2008 8:45 PM

And once - under anarchy- we've gotten fed up with street gangs and water wars and suchlike, and have developed rules and ways to take care of the massive social unrest we'll be right back with.... government.

I find the whole notion hopelessly naive, and suited only to a system of primitive production.

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Always look upstream.

FLETCH2

Sunday, January 13, 2008 8:53 PM

Ok the thing that puzzles me is how you deal with none government actors. If Megacorp moves into your community and starts pumping poison into the river outside your school how do you deal with that? A few good-ol-boys grab their second amendment rights and sort it out? What happens when they meet those awfully nice men from Blackstone that Megacorp has hired to run security?

If "justice" is bought with a gun doesn't the guy who can buy the biggest gun win?

GEEZER

Sunday, January 13, 2008 9:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I refer you to the online graphic novel version of L Neil Smiths "The Probability Broach", technically it's a political treatise, but it's a right good bit of storytelling in it's own right, and it does handle most of these issues, it's a fun read besides, as a bonus.

L. Neil is one of my triumverate of favorite authors named Smith, along with E.E.(Doc) and Cordwainer. I recommend Heinlein's "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" for another view of non-government in action. I'm familiar with the Broach-verse(to coin a phrase), so I'll frame my questions in terms of that book. (thanks for tipping me off to the graphic novel, BTW)

'Tricky Dick' Milhous breaks into Ed Bear's home and trys to kill Win, but is foiled. Once he makes it out the window, wounded but mobile, and assuming the Hamiltonians hadn't offed him later, what recourse would Win and Ed have had? Milhous is apparently known as a crook, and has remained in circulation for enough time to develop a rep.

Say that during the attempt to abduct Clarissa, she had winged and captured one of her attackers. The CLU takes evidence and there's a trial, but only if both sides agree. What if the captured attacker just stonewalls? Can there be a trial if he has not consented to participate?

I note that the villans in the Broach-verse are usually not that bright, and that the heroes sometimes step outside the "no force" concept in stopping them. Still great reading.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Sunday, January 13, 2008 9:09 PM

And then there this example: You get nailed on the freeway (Say, who built the freeway? Who owns it?) by some drunk driver who gets killed.

Somehow. ambulance companies are notified (Don't exactly know how 'cause you're passed out in the front seat, but- what the hell- this is a fantasy) You're whisked away by ambulance that you have no idea where they're taking your, or how good their training is (You're no about to dicker, and anyway, how do you figure out their reputation?) to another mystery provider- the hospital- which could just be a bunch of people who are only looking for body parts. (Because once again you have no idea who they are. You COULD look them up on the internet at your leisure... except, who owns the internet? But unless someone is willing to step in and rate these hospitals you only have their advert to go on.) and then you get billed for them putting your arms and legs back together again. But seeing as there's no insurance, and you weren't exactly in a position to dicker about the price and services you have to come up with a bunch of money. The guy who hit you has zero assets so you can forget about suing. You don't even have the satisfaction of shooting him 'cause he's dead. And now you're disabled for life, and can't do the work you used to much less defend yourself.

People do NOT survive as individuals. They survive as groups by coordinating and cooperating through mechanisms other than the "free market". And then there is the problem of "the commons", which NO market can take into account.

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Always look upstream.

RUE

Sunday, January 13, 2008 9:42 PM

piddly details ...

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, January 13, 2008 10:02 PM

Signy, all you're doing is plopping anarchy down on top of our existing system and saying: see, it don't work! You remind me of former Secretary Watt's quip, "If you want an example of the failures of socialism, don't go to Russia, come to America and go to the Indian reservations."

Anarchism would not and could not simply impose itself on your life one day. Anarchism is really a pretty alien way of thinking from what we get stuffed down our throats in this country. Have you read The Dispossessed? Le Guin goes into great detail about the childhood and school age years of a boy growing up in an anarchist community. The values instilled in the young are in many ways antithetical to a lot of crap we take absolutely for granted in this country.

Your example of the ambulance ride is a nightmare of impersonal mega-communal living which in an anarchic system could not/would not function. If you actually want to live like insects in a hive, then anarchy would not appeal to you. Communities would be smaller and people would have a much more thorough working knowledge of how the community functions and who to trust and such. Anarchy is a system requiring tremendous personal responsability compared to our entranced consumer culture. Different communities would have a huge database which they shared with other communities, of which you as a citizen would have to have a working knowledge. Imagine if you had the kind of knowledge you have about our elected officials in Washington about the medical practitioners and other professionals in your area. Everyone would have to dabble in all kinds of civic minded avocations--volunteer this, volunteer that--anarchy is not a system for people who want to be left alone to wallow in privileged ignorance--such folks would not fare too well.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

ANTHONYT

Sunday, January 13, 2008 10:17 PM

Hello,

Saying "It doesn't work that way" isn't going to help people understand.

We should take the example step by step.

1) You are struck by a vehicle on the highway (who owns it?)

2) The driver of the other car is killed.

3) You are paralyzed and in critical condition.

What happens next?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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