A Statement

POSTED BY: Wulfenstar
UPDATED: Sunday, August 17, 2025 15:39
VIEWED: 7074
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CHRISISALL

Wednesday, January 9, 2008 6:55 PM

I fear all is going according to their plan...

Chrisisall

JONGSSTRAW

Wednesday, January 9, 2008 7:16 PM

Freedom is never given
Freedom is never free
Freedom has always been fought for, and paid for with blood.

Freedom has not been the natural order of Man on Earth...enslavement has. That's the history of the world.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, January 9, 2008 8:38 PM

The British are some of the most "monitored" people ont he planet. Yet it has done nothing to stop the randomn (or non-randomn) terrorist.

Are we heading for the same fate?

The question becomes, how much of our freedom are we willing to sacrifice for ANY reason? With cameras everywhere, the government spying on all of our email and cell phone conversations, and the various new laws given by the Patriot Act, are we no longer a free country?

Also, is it too late to get these freedoms back? Can we do it in a legal manner? Or, if not, what are the options left to us?

RUE

Wednesday, January 9, 2008 8:43 PM

In a recent survey the US ranked better than Thailand, Taiwan, Singapore, Russia, China and Malaysia but worse than Britain for privacy protection. Canada was near the top for privacy protection.

http://www.gcn.com/online/vol1_no1/45647-1.html

Study: U.S. among world’s ‘endemic-surveillance societies’
01/08/08
By William Jackson

The United States fairs poorly in a recently released international report on privacy, ranking near the bottom of 47 countries surveyed and labeled an “endemic-surveillance society” with poor privacy protection and aggressive monitoring by both the pubic and private sectors.

“The 2007 findings indicate an overall worsening of privacy protections across the world, reflecting an increase in surveillance and declining performance of privacy safeguards,” the 2007 International Privacy Ranking concludes.

The report identifies technology as one of the culprits in the worsening situation. “The privacy trends have been fueled by the emergence of a profitable surveillance industry dominated by global [information technlogy] companies and the creation of numerous international treaties that frequently operate outside of judicial or democratic processes.”

The United Kingdom was rated the worst country in Europe and also listed as an endemic-surveillance society.

The ranking was produced by the U.S.-based Electronic Privacy Information Center and the U.K.-based Privacy International, which has been doing the survey since 1997. The full report is a massive 1,100 pages with 6,000 footnotes, but a summary of findings is available.

The United States is not the worst country measured. Thailand, Taiwan, Singapore, Russia, China and Malaysia fare worse. But, “in terms of statutory protection and privacy enforcement, the U.S. is the worst-ranking country in the democratic world,” the report said.

The U.S. ranking deteriorated since 2006, going from poor to bad in spite of the Democratic success in last year’s elections. “Despite political shift in the U.S. Congress, surveillance initiatives in the U.S. continue to expand, affecting visitors and citizens alike.” The close monitoring of international travel was rated among the most intrusive in the world. Among the findings contributing the national ranking:

No explicit right to privacy in the U.S. Constitution and no comprehensive privacy law.

The Federal Trade Commission continues to give inadequate attention to privacy issues, although it issued self-regulating privacy guidelines on advertising in 2007.

Real-ID and biometric identification programs continue to expand without adequate oversight, research and funding structures.

Extensive data-sharing programs across the federal government and with the private sector.

Congress approved a presidential program of spying on foreign communications over U.S. networks and now is considering immunity for telephone companies that cooperated in illegal programs.

There are some bright spots in the report. “State-level data breach legislation has proven to be useful in identifying faults in security,” the organizations found, and “democratic safeguards tend to be strong.” But countering these is the finding that a “new Congress and political dynamics show that immigration and terrorism continue to leave politicians scared and without principle.”

If this all seems a bit too oppressive, take some heart in the fact that — just across our northern border — Canada was rated one of the best countries in terms of privacy and surveillance.

© 1996-2008 1105 Media, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

RUE

Wednesday, January 9, 2008 8:44 PM

All you so-called libertarians out there - are so preternaturally quiet on the issue.

Where's the outrage ?

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chirp ... chirp ... chirp ... chirp ... chirp ... chirp ... chirp ... chirp ...

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, January 9, 2008 8:47 PM

So what are our options? Legally, first.

How can we stop this, or turn back whats begun?

RUE

Wednesday, January 9, 2008 8:54 PM

I've got to get busy. This is an important topic for me though, so I'll be back at least by tomorrow.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

HERO

Wednesday, January 9, 2008 9:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"The loss of life, no matter the amount, is not worth the loss of ONE mans freedom OR privacy"

Statements? Arguments? Ideas?

Unless its that one man's life...we all have every right to sacrifice our own lives to preserve the measure of liberty we believe we deserve. We have no right to require the same others.

If they so choose they can make the Locke/Hobbs bargain and choose security...to some extent over liberty or liberty over security. Certainly it is for this purpose that goverment was originally instituted among men...however it is not and never has been an all or nothing proposition.

In the begining everyone had 100% liberty and the freedom to do what they chose without restraint. Since that generally included taking the work of other, weaker folk without their consent the weaker folk got together to protect themselves and each other and in return had to give up a measure of the freedom of the individual for the support of the community. Since then we've been trying to figure out the right mix. It seems that mix is giving up just enough liberty to ensure just enough protection. Turns out that mix seems to change based upon particular circumstances. So a degree of flexibility and understanding must result among the members of the community.

Our inalienable rights include both life and liberty. If one is willing to risk life to preserve liberty...surely it is equally just to risk liberty to preserve life, especially since BOTH are required to effectively pursue happiness.

H

SERGEANTX

Wednesday, January 9, 2008 9:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
All you so-called libertarians out there - are so preternaturally quiet on the issue.

Where's the outrage ?

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chirp ... chirp ... chirp ... chirp ... chirp ... chirp ... chirp ... chirp ...

Am I "so-called"?

I'm not sure I know what the 'issue' is yet. This debate is usually framed as a balance between freedom and safety, as though they are opposing forces. But I think that often this view is wrong. When we look to protect ourselves from terrorists, for example, we immediately look to how we can beef up government and suspend liberties. But maybe if we just quit fucking with them, they'd leave us alone. That approach would have it's own "sacrifices" of course - our multinationals would be on their own and forced to deal with reality, and our oil prices would go up and force us to deal with alternate energy sources effectively. But we wouldn't be nervously fending off the whiff of fascism.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, January 9, 2008 9:19 PM

We HAVE already given up too much of our freedom and privacy. I started this thread with the hope of finding answers, solutions on how we can get it back.

Legally, first, of course.

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