A Statement

POSTED BY: Wulfenstar
UPDATED: Sunday, August 17, 2025 15:39
VIEWED: 7074
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RUE

Thursday, January 10, 2008 8:47 PM

"I think the track record of this approach speaks for itself. The change over time just doesn't move in the direction you suggest. Every time we voluntarily concede to a choice between corporate-cocksucker "A" and corporate-cocksucker "B", we lose ground."

So there would have been no diference between Gore and Bush ? Kerry and Bush.

C'mon man, say something at least a little in touch with reality !

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, January 10, 2008 9:08 PM

No there wouldnt, Rue. Except we would ahve looke at 9/11 as a police action, not an act of war (which it was).

The guys at the top are just puppets.

SERGEANTX

Thursday, January 10, 2008 10:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So there would have been no difference between Gore and Bush ? Kerry and Bush.

I'm sure I see less differences between them than you do, but that misses the point. Bush's victories, especially the second time around, are the net result of 'lesser-of-two-evils' thinking. This is where that kind of logic leads us, over time. Our election process has become one of voting out of fear rather that voting our conscience. We vote for the candidate who will screw us slightly less than the other one. Either way we get screwed.

Our voting system has devolved to something like the old Soviet elections, only instead of one candidate, we get two. Those with the money, power, and will to herd the masses will ensure that only candidates deemed safe for the status quo are perceived as mainstream. All others will be portrayed as fringe or, 'unelectable'. The media (and those who manipulate them) have perfected the art of the self-fulfilling prophecy, especially when it comes to public opinion. Until we tackle that fact, the rest of it is moot.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

RUE

Thursday, January 10, 2008 10:47 PM

Thanks for your reply which was more measured and complete than I deserved.

I have to be busy for the several hours but I hope to get back on this, if not today then tomorrow.

But I'd like you ask you a question about a slightly related topic, and that's the role of 3rd party candidates.

My observation is that 3rd party candidates are extremely valuable in the House and Senate. They can shift the direction of legislation by joining - or withholding - their support for any dem or rep legislation. So while they couldn't get anything through on their own, they could steer the country.

But as presidential candidates - until those parties themselves become significant - they are a waste of voter intention and can lead to disastrous results.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

SERGEANTX

Thursday, January 10, 2008 11:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
they [third-party presidential campaigns] are a waste of voter intention and can lead to disasterous results.

Think about what you're saying. More choice leads to disastrous results? If that's the case, then our election system is indeed broken.

One of the key elements to this situation is that we've let the two major parties rig the game. There should be no concept of a third party, or fourth or fifth, for that matter. In the context of the current political "reality", we desperately need someone besides the republocrats calling bullshit on their rigged system. If that means one of them takes a hit on occasion (ala Nader), so be it. It's just a natural byproduct of their corrupt little game. It's certainly not the fault of the voters, or candidates, who act on their conscience rather than political expediency.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

CANTTAKESKY

Friday, January 11, 2008 12:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I share your frustration with 'single issue libertarians', the ones who'll gripe about the teacher's union and ignore the Haliburton ghouls, and I appreciate you challenging them to have the courage of their 'so-called' convictions. But please don't insinuate that libertarians remain at the fringe by choice.

Thank you Sarge.

My outrage was petitioning on the streets when I wss 8 months pregnant to get Libertarian candidates on the ballot. My outrage was spending countless hours and money trying to shore up our state's party so candidates who stood for freedom had a chance to run. My outrage was setting up meetings and handing out flyers in the real world. And after all that, we still couldn't get on the ballot in our state because the two-party system set up stupid inane laws to keep us out.

--------------------------
After things go from bad to worse, the cycle will repeat itself.
-- Source unknown

RUE

Friday, January 11, 2008 12:55 AM

"Think about what you're saying. More choice leads to disastrous results? If that's the case, then our election system is indeed broken."

If NOT being a parliamentary system means being broken, then yes, at the Pres/VP level it is broken. B/c the Pres/VP offices are 'winner take all', it leads to that kind of result. Congress is not that way however, which leads to a different result - a multiple-party friendly environment.

So, I don't attribute it to malfeasance on the part of the parties - they have a lot of other things to answer for, but not that. It's just a natural outgrowth of how the system was set up in the first place.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, January 11, 2008 1:14 AM

Oh, you wanna know what you can do WITHOUT risking your neck so much then, eh ?

Well, you wanna stomp some status quo arse on an aboveboard plane, like, right away ?

Here.
http://www.iww.org/

And why ?
http://www.iww.org/en/culture/official/qanda

Study the history, find out WHY the four pole alliance, once nearly destroyed, is quietly being rebuilt once again - and see the real face of the powers that be, an empty noose with your name on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Workers_of_the_World

Show those corpie bastards the red card, and watch them tremble, if you dare.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

RUE

Friday, January 11, 2008 1:17 AM

And if you think both parties are exactly the same and it doesn't make a difference - here's what the lovely repubicans are bringing you - on top of the USPATRIOT Act, Gitmo, 10% of all US calls being traced, Iraq, and the unitary executive, of course -

Justices Indicate They May Uphold Voter ID Rules

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/10/washington/10scotus.html?_r=1&oref=s
login

By LINDA GREENHOUSE
Published: January 10, 2008

The justices’ questioning indicated that a majority did not accept the challengers’ basic argument — that requiring voters to produce government-issued photo identification at the polls is not an unconstitutional burden on the right to vote.

The tenor of the argument suggested, however, that rather than simply decide the case in favor of the state, a majority of five justices would go further and rule that the challenge to the statute ... was improperly brought in the first place. Such a ruling could make it much more difficult to challenge any new state election regulations before they go into effect.

__________________

So, are you ready to submit to a biometric government ID process in order to vote ?
For all you Dulcineas out there singing 'it's all the same ...', you could not be further from the truth.

***************************************************************
Silly ignorant children.

ANTHONYT

Friday, January 11, 2008 1:51 AM

Rue,

I am appalled that this standardized ID is being created and mandated. I have been appalled by it since it was announced.

I now have the first concrete examples of what you mean when you say people should 'do something' and 'organize.'

These concrete examples consist of

1) Supporting Civil Liberties organizations.
And
2) Voting Democrat, the lesser of two evils.

If there are other examples of your 'walk the walk' philosophy, please let me know.

It turns out I may actually be forced to vote Democrat for the first time in my life this election, because some of the alternatives seem so horrific as to be beyond consideration. It will depend on who makes the final cut.

I do have to agree with some of the people who despise voting for the lesser of two evils. If you vote 75% evil every time, you gain 3/4ths additional evil with every vote. Yay! It's better than voting 100% evil in the same way that dying from cancer over the course of 6 months is better than dying in an unexpected accident.

This election has been a painful one for me, because it is the first election where I actually bothered to invest any time or effort into one of the candidates and their political positions. So far, I've accomplished nothing more than I usually do, but I gained a great deal of additional disappointment.

So, Rue, I'll probably vote for that lesser of two evils, and I'll be donating to Civil Liberties organizations. And so I'll join you in your superior position of dealing our nation the death of a thousand cuts, and throwing pebbles at tanks.

But I won't laugh my morally superior ass off at the 'children' just because they have the simple sense to realize I'm not accomplishing anything, either.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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