What relationships would work?
POSTED BY: MerryK
UPDATED: Thursday, January 17, 2008 20:13
VIEWED: 17303
PAGE 4 of 5
MerryK: precisely! Simon has to spend all of his emotional "savings account" on taking care of River, and I see him as looking for someone to restore the balance by protecting and taking care of *him.*
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:You asked - "what about a possible River/Jayne relationship?" which doesn't sound like "looking at the likelihood of their relationships being long-lasting if they ever were started" but rather asking whether they start. Nes pa?
Originally posted by MerryK:
Just as a side note, if you'll read my original post, I wasn't supporting or campaigning against any certain ship.
Keep in mind, this relationship is in no way canon. It never started. It was never suggested, as S/K and M/I clearly are. You make a big leap, a pile of assumptions, in getting R/J to start, and that puts twists on these charactizations enough that your analysis of the longevity of their relationship is questionable. Mostly, you're giving Jayne all manner of noble, unselfish traits that are highly debatable.
And yes, it does make you a proponent of this ship. You are able to make those leaps, those assumptions that put these two in a relationship. Many of us are don't see that. At all.
You konw, I'm noticing a similarity between how you treat Jayne and Simon - if you insist on drawing them as perfect romantic heros with only enough flaws to fill the pages of a romance book with plot twists, well yeah, their relationships may appear possible and long-lasting. But Joss's characters are never so simple.
-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Wow. That's a new take. And has some merit in my eyes. (And damn, I'm going to talk S/K again! No, I'm just talking S. No K involved! Well, only a little...)
Originally posted by shinyseven2:
I think he's desperately looking around for somebody stronger than he is to take care of him, and that doesn't describe Kaylee.
I love how you say it, that he's very very bad at some things. So true - he's been somewhat sheltered himself. He's certainly got a backbone and plenty of toughness to do as he's done with River, but it's not like he set out in life to be Mr. Joe Adventurer. He's human, he is sensitive and a bit soft and squishy. I bet somewhere inside he's overwhelmed and shocked at what his life has become and wanting a little safety and security. Someone to take care of him for a change.
Which, as it happens, is exactly how I've been writing him. Not only that, but I've written Kaylee as strengthened by some hard times, so she's been able to become a kind of care-taker for him.
Wow, again. Thanks Shinyseven! I feel so justified LOL!
-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I think you misunderstand, Steamer.
I contend that River WOULD, possibly, find love with a new someone.
This makes the most sense to me because it would also allow the opportunity for the writers to establish a new character. These tend to be my favorite stories.
But, I do strongly feel that Rayne and other BDH River romances belong in Fanfiction as there are no canon basis for any of them. I hope that clears things up.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:and thus a fable, hum?
Originally posted by Steamer:
My longtime contention is that an effective and plausible River-romance would be along a line similar to 'Beauty and the Beast',
Jayne is not the Beast of lore. He's a real man - a toughened, morally questionable one who probably picks his nose and farts a lot and doesn't sit around mooning over love. He considers himself the center of his own tale. He's not looking to be the romantic hero in someone else's love quest.
To paraphrase Jane Austen: "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a [role in the Firefly verse] must be in want of a [romantic interest]."
Jane meant this ironically. So do I.
-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Oh dear. I knew it was not a good idea to bring up Rayne in the first place. I brought up Rayne only because a lot of people are certain that it will take place...I am not one of them, but I can play along for a post, can't I? I completely acknowledged all the assumptions that R/J supporters make, so I'm not sure why you try to call me on that one. I did not make them myself, I just followed the jumps that I've seen others follow.
I do not view anyone on Firefly as a perfect romantic hero. I despise the very notion. Every single Firefly man has moments where they are very romantic, and moments where they are very not. I don't need to acknowledge that with every post, though, even though I did here.
With that said, I'm not pulling these good qualities that I believe both Jayne and Simon possess alongside their flaws out of nowhere or interpretation...Joss directly said that Simon was too unselfish, clearly to a fictional degree, and Jayne's loving side is obviously meant to be seen in the little things that Joss added for his character to do. How does make them perfect romantic heroes.
I know that in my writings, at least, none of the relationships are anywhere close to perfect or simple, just as none of the characters in them are. If you'll note, nowhere in my post describing the ingredients for a long-lasting relationship did I say that said relationship would be easy...they still take work, a great deal of work. I really don't understand why you tried to accuse me of simplifying and romanticizing...I understand you have strong opinions about Jayne and Simon and their relationships, but simply seeing better chances for a relationship doesn't make you a diehard fluttering-heart romantic.
--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:One sure way to draw a crowd LOL! Yeah, maybe you should have prefaced R/J with: only to be discussed with those who believe! Of course, I still would have posted what I did above. All those assumptions you make about R and J change things. See below.
Originally posted by MerryK:
Oh dear. I knew it was not a good idea to bring up Rayne in the first place.
Quote:Because, as Platonist says, those assumptions belong in Fanfic. They do not belong in canon discussions.
I completely acknowledged all the assumptions that R/J supporters make, so I'm not sure why you try to call me on that one.
Quote:Because - and here I'm talking to the love boat crowd and not you in particular - it seems that any sizable flaw in Simon and Jayne that may preclude last-longing romance with the female of choice is shot down out of hand. And then replaced with gose like: "But he leaves out his dirty dishes and therefore he is a flawed man, see, I'm no idealist!" Gag!
How does make them perfect romantic heroes.
And now I feel like I'm entering a RWED debate... Like Bush supporters, S/K supporters sometimes seem unable to even consider that their man may have deep flaws, for Simon, deep enough that he won't ever be Kaylee's husband. This can be true even though he's not a bad guy.
Damn, how did I get into this again?
Quote:Sorry, haven't read your stuff. I'm just going by this thread, and others we've talked in.
I know that in my writings, at least, none of the relationships are anywhere close to perfect or simple, just as none of the characters in them are.
Quote:Because, whether you believe it yourself or are just saying what you think the R/J crowd believes, you did post this:
I really don't understand why you tried to accuse me of simplifying and romanticizing...
"River and Jayne have shown themselves to be capable of giving to other relationships, so assuming there is some attraction between them, they probably would give equally and enough. They are both very honest people, and don't seem to have problems in their other relationships, so together they would probably be very self-disclosing and emotionally open."
simplifying and romanticizing? I think so. I mean - Jayne? "very self-disclosing and emotionally open"? No "problems in other relationships"? *scratches head*
-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
But, I do strongly feel that Rayne and other BDH River romances belong in Fanfiction as there are no canon basis for any of them. I hope that clears things up.
Yes, it does, and I did misunderstand. I thought you were talking River-romances period, rather than just River/BDH pairings. Being a River/OC writer my own self, that's why I found your post a little discouraging - but, thanks for clarifying it!
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
and thus a fable, hum?
I didn't mean it that way. Just drawing a comparison. Besides, a fable is essentially a lesson about real life.
FOX watch out,
Warns Uncle Joss:
There's some Rivers
You shouldn't cross.
FIREFLY
Captain of the New England Browncoats
http://www.myspace.com/nebrowncoats
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Hey, Mal4Prez, that stuff about Jayne was part tongue-in-cheek. After all, being cruelly blunt is honest, and having no problems with relationships when all you have are relationships with your mother and whores isn't so much either. Jayne's got a lot of potential, he just does a pathetic job of dealing with it.
I won't try to continue the other discussion, but I'd just like to say that I think there's a difference between shooting down a flaw and thinking that it doesn't make a difference. People can have lots of flaws and still have relationships, which was all I was discussing here. We may disagree on which flaws would ruin relationships, but I wasn't here to discuss what flaws exist. Maybe it's romanticizing to think that certain flaws could be overcome with work...I have a hard time believing that, when both science and experience say otherwise.
--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Yeah, I was being a bit of a smartass (Me? Never!
Originally posted by Steamer:Quote:I didn't mean it that way. Just drawing a comparison. Besides, a fable is essentially a lesson about real life.
Originally posted by mal4prez:
and thus a fable, hum?
) I know what you meant, and I see the appeal of the big lug with the pretty little thing. It surely is a popular tale! I just don't think Jayne fits it, not in the time of the series and movie.Like Platonist, I do like River/OC. You've got all my support there! This girl desperately needs relationships, a chance to grow up. Learn to be social. Try and fail and try again.
-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME