What relationships would work?
POSTED BY: MerryK
UPDATED: Thursday, January 17, 2008 20:13
VIEWED: 17303
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Quote:
I think River finds some pleasure in using her abilities to protect the others. She's been helpless for a long time, and by the end of the BDM she seems to exult in being useful. I think her future would have her voluntarily joining the crew on more jobs. She doesn't seem like the person who would make a vow to "do no harm" or love peace above everything else.
This is exactly the River I see.
On a side note, I just started watching BTVS, and I’m now convinced more than ever that Joss would have gone Rayne. However short-lived, tragic or humorous the instance would have been, the evidence points to yes.
This isn’t real life people, it’s science fiction, and anything’s possible.
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Ah, I see. I basically agree with all your points about River and Jayne, though I do think that River is a little less scientific than most people think, but I think they would happen two or three years down the line instead of your six or seven. And the melding of girl and killer I see happening a whole lot sooner. But I don't actually ever see romance happening between them.
As for Simon, there's an odd thing going on with him, but I think it all makes sense. As for the sensitivity, in their conversations in Safe and the beginning of the BDM, he catches on to her hurt and tries to mollify it without a two-by four. In The Message and the middle of OIS, she is more direct, but, really, I've seen many men still not get that a woman is upset after equal hints as that. And not only does Simon recognize that he hurt Kaylee, he knows more than most guys and apologizes (or tries to) right away and doesn't excuse away that what he did was hurtful. Then he lets her come to him when she's forgiven him. If that's not a sensitive guy, then only fantasies can be.
Re willing to spend time and effort. Simon thinks he's River's sole protector. For most of the series he is. River needs constant protection and attention. Kaylee does not. Can we blame Simon for spending most of his time with River? In fact, he'd be a selfish clod if he did anything otherwise. After an argument with Kaylee, he does fall back to spending time with River, but I don't think that means anything except that River's care takes up most of his time.
He does spend time with Kaylee, though, and tries to be entertaining: the date in the Message, the storytelling in the beginning of OIS. In these encounters his sole purpose seems to be pleasing Kaylee, as he's constantly looking to her reactions. You could make an argument that these, and all the other conversations, are Kaylee-initiated, but we don't know that. Whatever the case, he seems just as involved in their conversations as she does, which indicates to me that he's interested in a relationship with her but can't carve out any more time to make it something serious. Ergo, I see him willing to commit time and effort into a relationship. As he says in the BDM, he spent all his time never doing what he wanted. It's not that he wasn't willing, he just was actually unable. I don't buy Mal's excuse that he could have had a relationship with Kaylee and care for River...any time Simon takes his eyes off River, something goes off. Frankly, River deserves and needs all the time Simon gives her, which grows less as she gets better (and so he spends more time with Kaylee).
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"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
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Quote:Yay for agreement LOL! But wait - you don't see an R/J romance? I thought you were saying there was potential (too lazy to check the thread again). Must say, I'm bummed that we're not likely to see the maturing of River Tam. She'd be so damned cool.
Originally posted by MerryK:
Ah, I see. I basically agree with all your points about River and Jayne, though I do think that River is a little less scientific than most people think, but I think they would happen two or three years down the line instead of your six or seven. And the melding of girl and killer I see happening a whole lot sooner. But I don't actually ever see romance happening between them.
BTW - in my world, the "less scientific" appearance of River is because it's cool to have a dancer girl scientist but showing the process of her scientific thought won't sell well to the TV audience. But that's because I'm a scientist and want to have some of that thrown in LOL!
[Going to italics for quotes or this post would go on forever...]
"Re willing to spend time and effort. Simon thinks he's River's sole protector. For most of the series he is. River needs constant protection and attention. Kaylee does not. Can we blame Simon for spending most of his time with River?" Hunh. See, here's the thing that I feel like I keep saying but must be doing it poorly because it's not getting through: I don't blame Simon. He really is a nice man, well-intentioned as all hell and not out to do harm. But the fact remains that very nearly every conversation he has with Kaylee is focused on him.
**Yes, he has reason.
**No, he doesn't mean to be selfish.
**Yes, Kaylee encourages this.
But the fact is, he does talk about himself. Whatever's behind it, he does. My point when I brought this up long ago is that once they do hook up and Kaylee starts defining him as "boyfriend" in her mind, the pedestal she has him on will rock. She will start saying - "Hey, what about me?"
"He does spend time with Kaylee, though, and tries to be entertaining: the date in the Message," In which he compliments when she demands it.
the storytelling in the beginning of OIS." Which is all about his own time in school.
And the storytelling in the bar in Jaynestown, which is again all about his overlooked surgical heroism.
"In these encounters his sole purpose seems to be pleasing Kaylee..." Really? I mean... really? I think he's just glad to have someone to talk to. It's pleasing to him, and she seems happy with it, so what the hell? He's not trying to delve into her at all. There was truth in the statement that she's the only woman in his world - he's not chasing her around the ship, he's turning to her because he has no one else. Before the movie, every moment that seems to push them closer is initiated by Kaylee. That's just how it is.
"as he's constantly looking to her reactions" Um.. sort of. I think he's watching because he knows he's not good at talking to girls. Her reaction is flattering to him, and he doesn't want to screw up. But I don't think he's talking to her out of a concern for her well-being. If he was, he'd ask her about herself. He'd initiate.
Again: I'm not he saying he means anything bad, that he doesn't have damn good reasons, or that Kaylee is blameless. I'm just saying that the future of this relationship needs to take into account the lack of balance between them.
"Whatever the case, he seems just as involved in their conversations as she does," But does he ever ask about her? Ever? Maybe the omission is merely Joss saving her background for that Kaylee-history centered episode we never got. Certainly possible. But what I see on the screen is Simon talking about himself and Kaylee being fine with that. Constantly. All the time. I don't think this can last in an intimate relationship. I'm interested in how it is worked out, rather than the average perfect-love fic that completely ignores any flaw in their relationship.
"As he says in the BDM, he spent all his time never doing what he
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I don't think it's quite that clear cut, Mal4prez. (Oh, and I said I could accept R/J romance, but don't see it happening in my verse).
Simon talks about himself...but look at the circumstances. At the beginning of Jaynestown, he's talking about himself, but only to defend some accusation that Kaylee made. Later in Jaynestown, he brings himself up, but only to talk about what's going on with Jayne, like what he does when comparing himself to River in the pilot. In the beginning of OIS, he's talking about himself, but he's more focused on getting a reaction from Kaylee than his recollections (or that's what I see). In The Message, he first apologizes for being a bad date, spontaneously compliments Kaylee, and then only messes up after she demands more.
Apart from the fact that, at this point, Joss is probably deliberately revealing things about Simon (who appears mysterious and reserved) than Kaylee (who appears most certainly not), and that with pretty nearly all these conversations we catch them in the middle and have no idea what happened before...well, that's a long apart, but anyway, I just don't see selfishness in any of Simon's behavior. What I see is Simon constantly choosing things for the benefit of others and often against his better interests.
In the flashbacks, it's always about River. He drops his studying for a moment to make her happy, only expresses happiness with his father once he knows his father approves, doesn't care about his career if he can do something to save River, spends his entire fortune to get her out, is ready several times in the pilot to give up his life if it will save hers, and stays on a ship with a man who punched him twice because it's the safest place for River. Even his career choice: trauma surgery is not an easy or relaxing job, no matter how lucrative. It's the job of a public servant.
And then, when does his relationship with Kaylee start? She asks about him at the dinner table in the pilot (after which he compliments her), and then he offers to help out the crew in the Train Job and they have a small conversation. In Bushwacked, he only goes over to the ship because people might need his help, and then he works with Kaylee (another small conversation). Later he offers to give the people a proper burial with Book, for no other reason than either Book or he thinks they deserve it. In Shindig, he initiates planning for a rescue attempt.
In Safe, his view of his life is so others-centered that he heals his kidnappers and thinks there's nothing left for him if he's failed River. He even apologizes for Mal breaking his word to Simon. In Our Mrs. Reynolds (including the deleted scene) he offers his encyclopedia and he's ready to fix the mess that River made with Saffron's room. In Jaynestown, he only goes along with the crew because he's needed.
In Ariel, he designs a job that will help everyone but himself, stops to help a patient simply because he needed help, and when they get back to the ship it's all about how good Jayne was and what he can now do to help River. In Trash, he confronts Jayne about what happened in Ariel but chooses what's best for Jayne and the crew, not what seems best for him and River. The Message I've already mentioned, but also he leaves Kaylee alone until she's ready, and then offers emotional support. In OIS, he's only worried about keeping River and Kaylee safe, and fights for that even with a major bullet wound. In the BDM, he only decides to leave because it's not safe for River, but is willing to give his life to get the Miranda message out. He expresses desires occasionally, but never makes selfish choices, except at the end of the BDM.
I don't see an imbalance where Simon is all about himself while Kaylee is doing all the giving. If anything, how often does Kaylee make unselfish choices? I don't see Simon and Kaylee's relationship having problems with Simon being selfish, I see problems with Simon being unselfish, so that it's all about caring for others and not exclusively Kaylee.
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"My way of being polite, or however..
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Gosh, it seems like every relationship discussion dissolves in to a "Rayne" fest.
Am I the only one that doesn't get the fascination with "River Romances"? The fanfic archives are filled with all sorts of "what if" pairings and crossover pairings or what BDH she is going to Vulcan Mind Melt with to find ever lasting love or who's children she will bear or who will she loose her virginity to and of course we can't forget the crew's reaction, especially Simon's, because we know he won't accept it unless the lecherous hump proves his or her intentions are out of "true love" and "lifelong sacrifice' and "undying commitment". Spun enough?... anyone else ready to vomit?
River wasn't portrayed as anything but a traumatized adolescent during the series and then by the end of the movie she had finally come to a vague understanding of what she has endured and what she
unfortunately has become, a weaponized traumatized adolescent.
Joss consistently refers to her as underage, even during the movie, but empowers her with intelligence, psychic gifts and keen reflexes. There is little to no subtext to what her sexual desires are and absolutely no discussion of her future sex life on any commentary or in any literature published with Joss's words.
Which leads me to believe that River was a character that was written mainly to show what men are capable of, in darkness (government men) and in righteousness (the crew's heroism) in the BDM.
Further more, any speculation of a Rayne romance in this verse is purely erroneous and shouldn't be based on another series written 10 years earlier, in a different verse.
River romances clearly belong in "FANFICTION", for fans that enjoy those types of scenarios, as we have little insight in to her romantic idealism in canon. Some are actually fun and can be original if the writer takes her tender age and lack of experience in to account. Personally, in time, I think we would have seen her with a new character, probably one closer in age and hopefully as hot as hell. This is just my take on the whole Rayne thingy.
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I'm sorry, MerryK, I really should have stuck with my original instincts and left this one alone. I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind, I said as much. All that will come of explaining and justifying myself yet again is me being even sicker of this pairing than I already am.
I know, horrible of me to drop this mid debate, and I'm sure your post is well thought out and will be informative to many, but I just can't argue S/K anymore. I don't find the pairing overly compelling, I don't go out of my way to read it, and have ended up writing it only through some odd twist of plot. I'm at my limit. Can take no more.
Platonist - you're not alone, I'm right there with you with the 
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Hey, no problem, Mal4Prez! I know what it's like to have those sort of opinions that don't ever seem to make sense to other people, so I'm sorry if I caused you the same sort of frustration. 
Platonist: I, too, wonder at how everything ends up in Rayne discussions... I don't like River romances in general, and I don't see them happening if Joss continues the verse, but I'm not entirely hostile to the idea. In Zoe's words, I don't disagree with any particular point that either side makes. FYI, I found the Rayne pairing an idea so far out when I first came to this fandom, and agree that it should be kept to fanfiction discussions, but within the realm of fanfiction I'm not hasty to label something as taboo or impossible.
--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
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While it doesn't make either Kaylee or Simon a bad person, I think they have very little in common and don't share a worldview or objectives. Importantly, Kaylee adores Serenity and wouldn't want to be anywhere else, and Simon would be anyplace else in a heartbeat if he thought he could protect River there.
Simon is really, really good at a lot of things and really, really bad at a lot of other things, and since his rescue of River he went from spending most of his time in the first category to spending most of his time in the second category, as well as having gone from material luxury to material poverty, and from safety and high social status to being an outcast in constant danger. I think he's desperately looking around for somebody stronger than he is to take care of him, and that doesn't describe Kaylee.
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Looking for someone stronger? I've never heard that one before. I've always seen Simon as the protector, not the protectee...maybe you can elaborate? I'll definitely agree about his situation being a 180 degree switch, though I think Joss was trying to show us how he copes over the course of the show.
Just as a side note, if you'll read my original post, I wasn't supporting or campaigning against any certain ship. I was simply looking at the likelihood of their relationships being long-lasting if they ever were started. Obviously if you don't think a certain relationship would have started, then you don't think it would last. However, from a psychological and real-life point of view, having the same goals or hobbies or even morals are not necessary to a long-lasting affectionate relationship. Really. Important, but not necessary.
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"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
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*percolates*
Must....not....post....Rayne-rant....
Platonist, forgive me for saying so, but your opinion of River-romances is a little discouraging. My longtime contention is that an effective and plausible River-romance would be along a line similar to 'Beauty and the Beast', that is, chancing upon someone who could learn to love her the way she is. I think that's one thing that could set her on an even quicker path to healing. That person, of course, would be awfully hard just to chance upon, but it's a big 'verse and there's always a lottery winner.
*tightens cap on bubbling bottle of anti-Rayne*
Does your captain
Rant and rave
That he aims
To misbehave
Follow him
Right to the grave
FIREFLY
Captain of the New England Browncoats
http://www.myspace.com/nebrowncoats
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