Characterising Kaylee
POSTED BY: nbz
UPDATED: Saturday, October 27, 2007 00:51
VIEWED: 25909
PAGE 5 of 9
Good points, Mal4Prez, especially about Kaylee's sexual freedom. The thing is, that point is a big part of why I think Kaylee was actually falling in love with Simon.
Joss introduced us to Kaylee in the pilot as someone very ingenuous and innocent-seeming. She's got a crush on Simon, but we have no reason to think that it's anything but the sort of crush any woman might have. The series continues, and we still see Kaylee "going after" Simon in one way or another. Then we get to Out of Gas. Suddenly our whole picture of Kaylee-as-innocent must turn into Kaylee-as-free-spirit, but it's not like Joss hasn't been giving us hints all along. Now that we know that Kaylee is very free with her affection, however, we have to suddenly examine her attraction to Simon with a different eye. What seems most likely at this point is this:
-Simon is deadly swai, as Kaylee admits in Safe
-Simon is generally well-mannered and friendly to Kaylee (she admits they "get along" in Jaynestown)
-Simon's profession/position/character/alloftheabove seem to intrigue Kaylee, since she often asks questions about him (I don't agree with your idea that Simon starts the conversations about himself...he isn't that talkative to anyone, even River, and we have seen Kaylee ask him questions, so I would say that the discussions were began by her, even if I agree that he is usually thinking about himself and his situation)
-Simon is the only available young male on board Serenity, which Kaylee never leaves
With this at our fingertips, the most obvious analysis of Kaylee's feelings are that she lusts after Simon, though she probably also likes him for other reasons. Absolutely nothing yet to show that she has any deeper feelings than that.
But to leave Kaylee's character at that? Joss didn't let any of his characters stay the same, even in the short time we saw them. They all grew from how we first met them. With that in mind, I think we see Kaylee growing in how she thinks of her relationships with men.
As I said earlier, I don't think the evidence adds up convincingly enough for Kaylee to have just a crush. As much as Simon is the only option, she puts up with an awful lot and still goes after him. Any woman in that situation who didn't feel something deeper than a crush would start to despise Simon, but Kaylee obviously does not. Not only that, she seems to care about River and Simon's welfare, more than just a desire to keep the cute doctor around. There's more than lust here.
I think Joss was trying to show us that Kaylee had grown. Not that he was against her earlier freedom with affection, but he did value long-lasting true relationships such as Wash and Zoe's, so I don't think it's out of his realm to have Kaylee start to desire a relationship on that level. (I think S/K would have eventually replaced W/Z in some ways post BDM.) I think her more long-suffering behavior shows that she's growing, changing, as a character through her relationship with Simon. Just as he is growing and changing through his relationship with her.
Even if they never really got together, or if they were forced apart soon after, I don't think Joss would have had them as static characters. Kaylee, as she was, was sexually free; I don't think this was Joss' long-term plan for her, and I think that her behavior shows a gradual change away from that. After all, relationships, of all sorts, change people, as Joss knew, and I think that being around Simon (the sort who would inspire long-lasting devotion, after all) made Kaylee start to learn to actually love him. Eventually. Not all at once. Joss was nothing if not realistic about those things.
Having said that, your other points are interesting as well. If Kaylee is falling in love with Simon, I just don't see her going after anyone else for something serious or even a fling. When Kaylee falls in love, I see her has going all the way, and I don't see it as degrading. It's not a purity issue...it's just that she wants Simon, and no one else.
As for how Simon sees Kaylee, I don't think your judgmen
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>(I think S/K would have eventually replaced W/Z in some ways post BDM.)
I just had this conversation with a few different people and none of them agreed with me on the above. At least someone does! LOL!
I can see it real clearly since Simon seems very much like Zoe in that he's emotionally reserved. And Kaylee is very much like Wash in that she's carefree and happy. Wash and Zoe are very much opposites as are Simon and Kaylee.
"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."
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I didn't exactly mean replace as in that their characters/relationships are similar, but more as in their positions on the ship. I think that post BDM, Mal's idea of the crew changes. Kaylee has toughened a little, and once she and Simon are together, I see her being firm of purpose. She's not like Zoe, but I see her taking that place in Mal's heart (I think that Mal would be too guilty about what happened to Wash to keep the same close relationship with Zoe). And just as Wash and Mal bickered, especially over Zoe, I see Simon continuing to grow more brave with how he deals with Mal. After what they've all been through, I think both Kaylee and Simon are going to be thinking of Mal as more of an comrade than captain, which, combined with their budding relationship, is going to give them Wash and Zoe's place in a sense.
--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
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I see part of the problem - let me note that I tend to live in the pre-BDM verse, because I think Joss was forced into many shortcuts with the movie and, frankly, I don't like them all. I don't blame Joss, he had no other way to get us the story. So I don't disagree that S/K could become a thing, but I'm caught up in where they are in the series and the path they'd have taken to get together if there'd been time.
The reason I brought up "Jossian" is to say that this verse isn't a romance fantasy, and just the fact of their interest in each other is no guarantee that it will work. I am like Joss in that I focus on the flaws in people, the obstacles they have to overcome, rather the happy-joy prospect of characters just "falling in love" and being A-OK.
Anyhoo, I don't think Simon ever chose or intended to talk about himself all the time, and I'm sure that Kaylee is just fine to encourage it because she's all smitten. But Simon clearly doesn't have the basic curiousity about other people that would lead to him asking Kaylee about herself, not that we've seen. He doesn't have a - "Wow, she's incredible, I have to know more about her!" attitude. I think he will develop it in time, but he doesn't have it in the series, or even in the movie, till nearly dying gives him a push. Near the beginning, he was going to leave the ship, and wasn't at all responsive to her "Not that you ... spit" line. He was in his own world, worrying his own worries.
Face it - as good-looking and sensitive as Simon is, and as excellent a candidate for romantic fantasies, he's got faults a'plenty. He's not going to just - presto! - become the perfect boyfriend/husband, always with the right sweet things to say and ready with the fabulous sex anytime (but only after giving Kaylee four orgasms first LOL!) I mean, let's face it, he's kinda socially inept, and in some matters his head is firmly buried up his ass. Sleeping with Kaylee once won't change that.
Anyway, back to Kaylee. (Oops. I digressed!) Is she really so dependent on Simon? Does she see him as her one and only method of being happy, to the exclusion of all else?
I just don't think so. She didn't ask Simon's opinion before she got all starry-eyed over Tracy. Simon may be her first choice, but she's still a free spirit and an independent woman. If all she wanted was marriage and babies, I'm thinking she could have got that on her homeworld.
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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The reason I brought up "Jossian" is to say that this verse isn't a romance fantasy, and just the fact of their interest in each other is no guarantee that it will work. I am like Joss in that I focus on the flaws in people, the obstacles they have to overcome, rather the happy-joy prospect of characters just "falling in love" and being A-OK.
Exactly my opinion! I don't think Simon and Kaylee would have an easy road at all...oooh no, not them. But I don't think that would stop them from trying. They're young and naive and in love...so both of them are about as clearheaded as River, maybe less. But that doesn't stop anyone from trying.
I'm failing to see how Kaylee cannot want a future with Simon. Being an independent woman who's not actively in search of marriage or commitment doesn't mean you don't have any desire to find someone to spend your life with (I know from experience). Kaylee's obviously got high standards...she's not going to get married just to do it. But men like Simon don't just pop up on everyone's homeworld, and I think that's key. Even if Kaylee really thought seriously about being with Tracey, which I still doubt a bit, she went to Simon in the end. And so far, no matter what he does, she eventually goes back. And I think that's because she thinks he'll make her happy. It's not that Simon is the only man in the 'Verse that she could love (gooey romantic fantasy...get it away from me!), he's just the only one that she's met so far.
As for Simon...you're right, he's not the curious sort of person, about anyone. It probably has to do with his profession. He can't afford get too interested in everyone he deals with, because he very well might lose them. Hmm. In fact, I don't see Simon ever being very interested in people's pasts. He seems to treat people in the here and now, and not worry much about anything but the future. Does that spell disaster for them? I don't think so. Once Simon stops telling himself that getting involved with Kaylee is a problem, though, I can see him trying (and that is the operative word) to do what pleases her.
He's going to fail, of course. He's male, he's socially inept in this society (I don't think he was back in his old one), and he's got a host of personality issues. Not to mention his responsibilities that he can't just forget. A lot of fic authors just put Kaylee and Simon happily together (transforming River into someone sane and independent and Simon into the perfect figure of a man, of course), which I really dislike. But even examining all the likely problems that would occur if they tried to get together, I don't see it as impossible or even improbable. As someone once said, “A great marriage is not when the perfect couple comes together. It is when an imperfect couple learns to enjoy their differences.” And I think Simon and Kaylee have a lot of potential in that area.
--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
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I'm failing to see how Kaylee cannot want a future with Simon. Being an independent woman who's not actively in search of marriage or commitment doesn't mean you don't have any desire to find someone to spend your life with (I know from experience).
Apart form the first sentence I can agree with you. (not that I have a position on that. I can see both sides here).
As for the first sentence, there are a lot of obstacles for which she may eventually decide NOT to go down that route - some even beyond the personal feelings. (Is that line even about Kaylee?)
1. Always on the run from the law and what that means. Such as a harder life, bounty hunters etc. The thing about running is that you eventually get caught. of course she does not seem to have a problem with crime, but getting shot or threatened cannot be fun.
2. Always being second in priorities. I am not female, but I would think that at some point that would cause issues.
That is ignoring whether Simon would have any reservations.
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Kaylee's obviously got high standards...
Bester?
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she's not going to get married just to do it. But men like Simon don't just pop up on everyone's homeworld, and I think that's key. Even if Kaylee really thought seriously about being with Tracey, which I still doubt a bit, she went to Simon in the end.
After Tracey used her as a hostage and ultimately died.
Your point of her being attracted to Simon because a rarity in her world makes Simon sound to me like a play thing. Something new for Christmas, until you get new toys next year... but her new one broke so back to the old one. She liked it better anyway.
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And so far, no matter what he does, she eventually goes back. And I think that's because she thinks he'll make her happy.
Or maybe because every other male on the ship is either married, crude-ape-gone-wrong or the captain. Simon is literally the only one in the world for her... (see what I did there?
- again not saying that it would not work.)She goes back because she is a person and she cares when the people around her get hurt. Even if it was Jayne she would not just stand back and laugh at him... (if you mean goes back to a relationship setting - we do not know that. They only moved towards that at the end of the BDM. For the first time as far as we know).
Back onto the topic of Kaylee, I would also say I can see her developing a sort of resentment for River. "The obstacle".
Another question about whether they can be the new Wash and Zoe - I would say no. Simon is too detached, Kaylee is too sensitive and short sighted. Too much a circus for my liking.
Another thing which puts me off this pairing - but has no connection to the characters - is that a lot of their fic interactions are forced. The angst is not real, just forced because issues are expected to occur.
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You misread that one sentence. I took, from your post, that you were saying that Kaylee was independent, and if she had wanted to be married, she would have done that already. I agree that there might be reasons why she wouldn't marry Simon, I was just wondering why you seem to think that she can't want Simon and still be who she is.
I think Bester is definite proof that Kaylee has high standards. She could have married him. Instead, she chose something less meaningful because she wanted to, and not for anything else. She has no problem with satisfying her lust. But I think she has high standards for men who she's planning to see more often than one outing up in a derelict Firefly.
You may have a point about Simon being the new toy...but that all depends on if she meets someone better. Frankly, I don't see that happening. Everyone on Firefly admits that Simon's qualities are rare. Not many men would do what he did, or would be what he is after everything he's gone through. Do you think it's likely that she'll find someone who would be a worthy replacement?
But yes, oh yes, I do so very much agree with River the obstacle. That's the biggest thing keeping Kayle and Simon apart, and it's rarely dealt well with in fanfic. Because, unlike in many fics, Simon can't just "sort our his priorities" and choose Kaylee; River needs him more than Kaylee does, though perhaps at the end of the BDM that's not as true, and if he just left her, he'd be the biggest jerk in the universe. The same is true if he just drops Kaylee because he thinks he can't take care of both of them. This is hardly a problem that only happens in the 'Verse...mentally ill family members often cause conflict because the "less needy" ones think they're being neglected. And sometimes that's true, and Simon has to learn what's neglect and what's just normal. I think Kaylee could come to grips with that, over time, but not until Simon does. At the end of Objects in Space, it seems that he is starting to get that, and perhaps by the end of the BDM it's a very real possibility. But certainly, River can't be left out or sloppily written out of a portrayal of a Kaylee/Simon relationship.
--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
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Not saying she would have been married. Saying she is independent. There is nothing stopping her from her getting married, or not for that matter. I just don't think marriage is at the top of her agenda.
From where she comes, does marriage even have any significance at all? I would say it does, because it does in most cultures that exist now, but from reading her, we have no idea.
The fact that she did not marry Bester does not mean to me that she has high standards at all. He was a quick fling to get to see the innards of a ships engine room. It shows the exact opposite to me - she is willing to use people to get what she wants. Even those that are not on a high rung. (never did get a positive impression of Bester in either two of his scenes in OoG)
At the end of OiS River is supposedly asleep. At the end of the BDM there is a possibility, but I take the "I'm ok" to not mean River is cured. After all she had parts of her brain chopped off. She would IMO return to a state similar to that of OiS from where she had dropped to in the BDM after the subliminal message. But sayuing all that, Simon/Kaylee can work and probably will for at least a short spell of time.
River is destined for a short life IMO, but during that time things could be hectic.
And from the end of OiS to the BDM nothing happens. They are both in a confined space so there is nothing stopping them from getting together. That says to em Simon did pull back. In his bigger picture Kaylee does not yet have a place.
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fantastic thread!
i won't get too much into the specifics of your discussion, you've done that well enough youselves - just:
mal4prez - ignore the BDM* at your peril - there was less pressure on joss and his script than firefly felt under fox... less need to inject humour and 'likeability', for example.
shortcuts? there are maybe two:
1) Rivers 'i'm ok' which just a narrative sop for the majority audience unfamiliar with the brain scraping backstory and convincing only in as much as she has 'cleared' a block (of how many?) she may BEGIN to harness her abilities - but we're talking a hard road to hoe:)
2) oddly the apparent reverse with S/k finally getting together - and answering the question hanging since the series. iT DOES though provide more cushioning for the general audince insearch of a happy ending. HOWEVER (and certainly compared to warm scenes in the tv show) it's clear that NO relationship has bloomed till the er, climax. Simon is very cold and preoccupied incomparison - quick to side with River, quick to leave serenity etc. Their decision to get physical doesn't seem to come from a desire for a long term equally footed relationship (scoff!) but from something a little more mundane.
The irony is of course that they are both well matched in their emotional naivity! Kaylee is still young - and Simon has always kept himself aloof and devoted to River.
i could see kaylee marrying for the shinyness of it (and i can imagine her loving children) but the reality of any marriage she did fall into would dent her desire for independance - maybe she would desire to settle later in life, hard to say. She does seem a little older and less in love woth the wide blue verse in the BDM.
hope this made some kinda uber caffiene-ated sense!:)
* i suspect that, like most of us, you like Serenity but LOVE firefly... but Those left Behind AND the BDM have a very definite feel that i think draws a line under the tv show of old. If it returns, chances ae it will be as serenity after all.
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I agree with you, Wytchcroft, about the double meanings. River's "I'm ok" could mean sane to non-fans (who never saw her behave very insanely anyway) and starting to get better to fans. Likewise Simon's declaration to Kaylee was cleverly phrased so that a non-fan would see it as something equivalent to a marriage proposal (despite Kaylee's quip) while fans would know that it was just one step.
I've been thinking about writing a fic about what happens after the BDM for Simon and Kaylee. So they've both finally admitted that they like each other, but as has been discussed here, there are tons of obstacles before anything serious happens. I think that it will happen eventually, especially because of how I think the 'Verse continues after the BDM, but it will be a looong journey.
--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
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