Characterising Kaylee

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Originally posted by bullet0in0the0brainpan0squish:
uh, seriously guys... have you talked to women lately? Have you ever met a woman who did not feel insulted when you implied that she's not pretty or special?

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I have to say, you're going with a stereotype which - thank goodness - don't apply to the Jossverse. I'd be so much happier if you'd worded it: have you ever met a *person* who didn't feel insulted when you implied that he/she wasn't attractive or special? I think that's a bit more applicable...

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I don't think it was about Kaylee's attachment to the ship. I think it was about them, their crew as a whole.

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Hmm. I think she took that very much as a comment about herself, a further bit of sting added to her poor taste (in Simon's view, though of course he didn't know he was judging her...) re the "rich" plate. When she says "them as choose it," I don't think she's thinking of anyone but herself, and Simon's view of her personally.

Now, if he'd said something like that in front of Zoe, I don't think she'd have popped him or anything. She might have snarked at him, but she's clear-eyed enough to see that Simon's just clueless about some things. Kaylee's can't see that. She does get a bit self-focused around him - everything he says is about *her*.

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but here is someone who is stuck in an otherwise man's job, covered in engine grease all day, and the moment she dreams of owning a pretty dress her insensitive polyp of a captain tells her she'd look ridiculous in it. Try telling that to any woman and let's see if you don't get the look as well.

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uhhh... I am very much a woman, and I wouldn't act this way. You're again making gender assumptions that don't apply in this verse... When Kaylee showed up and fixed the engine in OoG, did Mal do or say anything to suggest that a mere girl shouldn't be so good with machines? I mean, I see your point about how she might want to get all pretty, but the referral to *the look* makes me shudder. In a bad way. It's a trite assumed gender role: men are insensitive, women are sensitive and give *the look* when those silly men trip up. Ew! Take me back to Joss's verse where these stereotypical he/she behaviors only exist to be made fun of!

The rest of your post I pretty much agree with - many people (male or female ) would be insulted by the things Simon says. But I think Kaylee's inability to recognize that he's just a bungler, and he doesn't *mean* to offend, is because she has him so pedestal-ed. She doesn't give him space to be imperfect, because she's stuck in her own insecurity and can't see that he's just as much a flawed human as she is.

I sort of agree that she isn't "ambitious" as you use the word. I don't think she's manipulative, or intentionally trying to use people in any way. To her credit, the final judgement call for Kaylee is the actual character of a person. If Simon'd turned out to be a real asshole, she wouldn't have kept admiring him, no matter how fancified or pretty he was.

But I do see her as giving him the benefit of the doubt from the very beginning for superficial reasons. She was drawn to his good looks, manners, and experience in the upperclass of the verse. I don't think this makes Kaylee a bad person - she just wants to know how the "other half" lives, and be near it, just like many people from the lower classes would. It's natural, but it is a source of blindness in her. To me, it makes her more interesting, that she isn't perfect and blameless as to the awkwardness of her relationship with Simon.

Let's just not be so quick to say that her reactions are typical of women. That's sooo not true.

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I always cringe in that scene during The Message, but equally for Kaylee and Simon. Kaylee, because Simon’s misstep is painfully hurtful, but for Simon because everything about the situation spells disaster for him. Simon can be articulate, but only when he knows something about what he’s doing and isn’t pressured. The more he knows, the more he can handle pressure. He can play the part of an Alliance official, or a head doctor in a hospital, but a mud buyer? Not a chance, as he has no experience. Whenever he doesn’t know what he’s doing, he freezes and babbles, even more so when there’s pressure. Which is why he could compliment Kaylee *before* she *told* him to do it some more. What was she thinking? Putting Simon under pressure is the worst way to get what you want.

But for the person who said Kaylee wasn’t manipulative? I think that’s one of her defining characteristics. It isn’t malicious or even conscious, but most of what she says has more under the surface than what meets the eye. Especially in her behavior with Simon. She’s constantly trying to squeeze compliments/information out of him, using her open smiles and looks. She doesn’t ever give him space or think about why he might be doing something; it’s all about her wants and needs. She uses her emotions to get people to feel guilty for not doing what she wants, especially with Simon and Mal (Jaynestown and Shindig as representative episodes).

Wash is the other character who does this, and Inara has a few manipulative tendencies. It’s especially clear when you compare Kaylee to Simon. Simon never asks for anything from Kaylee, he’s always giving. He tries to compliment her, he listens to her, he answers her questions, he tries to apologize when he fails, and if something hurts him, he keeps it to himself. Oh yeah, he’s got some arrogance and a bit of a martyr complex as well as being simply clueless, but those problems will be a lot easier for him to overcome than it will be for Kaylee to learn to be more sensitive to what others want and need.

What, I hear you say, Kaylee is the most sensitive character of them all, right? Maybe, but it seems to be only when it serves her interests. She defends Simon because she likes him, not necessarily because she thinks he’s in the right. She gets upset when others are arguing, not because she wants everyone to get along, but because it’s uncomfortable for her. She plays with River because River is the key to unlocking Simon, and quickly drops her when the danger outweighs any benefit she thinks she’ll get.

And now I sound like the worst critic of Kaylee ever...remember that she is my third favorite character, and I can find equally as many faults with my top two, Simon and River...but this is the Kaylee thread, and I think she gets let off a little too easily in the faults category because we all love her.

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"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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