Characterising Kaylee
POSTED BY: nbz
UPDATED: Saturday, October 27, 2007 00:51
VIEWED: 25909
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NBZ said: “I am not female…” Doh! Now I have to totally revamp my mental image of you LOL!
Quote:Let me stress that I do believe Kaylee wants Simon, and wants him for more than a quick roll. And a future with him would be fine – she probably has day dreams about that.
I'm failing to see how Kaylee cannot want a future with Simon.
My question is: does she put him above all else? In the series, does she?
I think there’s plenty to suggest that she has other priorities. And, really, I think it’s part of her naivete and lust for adventure that she’s not too worried about the long term future. She has a ship she loves, a captain she admires and trusts, and she’s traveling the verse. If she could add frequent onboard sex and hand-holding with the shiny fancy doctor into the mix she’d be a pig in mud. But I just don’t see that she’s put all her hopes and desires into him, to the exclusion of all else.
Now, a ways down the road, after they are involved and have gotten to really know each other, (and I have never once said this won’t happen and I find it curious that people always assume I mean this, no matter how many times I clarify!) she may indeed come to depend on him quite a lot. Nothing wrong with that! It’s the timeframe of the series and movie that I'm talking about.
Quote:It’s in how she wants him. I think that all this focus on marriage, the idea that from the very first episode she was saving herself for him and Simon’s love is of primary importance to her – I don’t think that’s canon Kaylee. What is there to suggest she’s into that? How did this whole Kaylee wants, first and foremost, a lifelong partnership with Simon thing come about? I just never got that impression of her, not until I read fic.
I took, from your post, that you were saying that Kaylee was independent, and if she had wanted to be married, she would have done that already. I agree that there might be reasons why she wouldn't marry Simon, I was just wondering why you seem to think that she can't want Simon and still be who she is.
When Simon and River were leaving the ship in the BDM, Kaylee worried for Simon but, as far as we’re shown, never even entertained the notion of leaving with him. Don’t you think that if he was the only apple of her eye and her life was meaningless without him, she might have tried to go along? Even if she feared rejection, don’t you think she would have dropped hints, offers to help? Wouldn’t she have tried, even a little, to grab hold of him before he left forever?
But she didn’t. She went with Mal, though she was plenty mad at him. If River hadn’t been triggered, Kaylee would have stayed on Serenity and gone on with her life without her shiniest toy. I think she’d have missed him and always regretted that he left, but she wouldn’t be damaged by losing him. And she would find another man to admire eventually. It’s in her nature to admire, even if it’s not Simon.
Quote:Not everyone on the crew means “rare” in a positive way LOL!
You may have a point about Simon being the new toy...but that all depends on if she meets someone better. Frankly, I don't see that happening. Everyone on Firefly admits that Simon's qualities are rare. Not many men would do what he did, or would be what he is after everything he's gone through. Do you think it's likely that she'll find someone who would be a worthy replacement?
Ahhh… don’t hate me, but I think that you’re giving Simon the role of Perfect Romantic Hero here, and ignoring his short-comings. Sure, he’s rare, but that doesn’t make him any kind of perfect specimen for romance. In fact, his “rare” qualities make him quite the reverse, IMHO. I don’t see how absolute devotion to a little sister, fugitive status, and a high degree of medical training and intelligence make him an ideal life partner. He’s surely got potential, and Kaylee sees that, but he ain’t priceless.
In any case, that’s not the point. I just don’t think Kaylee’s #1 plan is wedded bliss. She’ll sure take it, but that’s just not her whole world.
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Firstly, I agree wholeheartedly that Simon is not Kaylee's only priority, and certainly not marriage with him. A "future" with Simon doesn't necessarily mean marriage. I don't think Kaylee would consciously think like that. I do think, though, that post BDM Simon thinks like that, and I think that if he asked Kaylee to marry him, she might very well say yes. It would depend on where, when, and how, of course, but I think her feelings have progressed to a level where she would contemplate spending her life with him.
But not because he's the perfect romantic hero. Good grief no! In fact, I can name two dozen other fictional men that are more perfect then all the ones in Firefly combined. But when it comes to Firefly, you can't judge men by our world's standards. In the Firefly 'verse, there are very few good men, and no perfect ones. Other than the men on Serenity (excluding Jayne), who else have we seen with a strong character? And when you look at those men, Wash has a strong character (but he's married), Book has a strong character (but he's old), and Mal, though he usually ends up making the right choice, is certainly usually on very grey moral grounds. Simon, for all his faults, is probably the "best" man on the crew and in the 'verse that the BDHs traverse. I don't doubt that there are other good men that we haven't met, but I do think that they are few and far between. And for a young, single woman, Simon is probably the best bet. He'd be incredibly loyal, affectionate, considerate, and with a topping of good looks and intelligence. Sure, he's got some arrogance, a boatload of communication problems, and maybe even a slight mean streak, but when you look at the other men, is it so unlikely that Kaylee would want to stick with him for longer than a short fling?
--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
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I would say Simon is the "best" in morals because he does not have to make the choices.
It would be interesting to read something where he ponders over the few choices he has made.
1. He rescued River. Chances are every other kid in that place was killed when the Operative closed the facility. He did not stop to rescue every other little darling (he would have if it was fanfic. Of that I am certain.).
2. He decided to take Mal's offer to stay on Serenity. There is a chance that most if not all their friends are now dead because of that.
3. When he decided to leave Serenity, they stepped straight into a trap, which resulted in the end of #2.
He has got a moral fibre, but it has not been tested beyond what he would do for a sibling he loved in a situation where he had no other obligations apart from to himself. it leaves a lot of room to explore his character.
Imagine he was taken on a job which involved a shoot out. Would he help those they shot? Why?
A second question is in the "Dead or Alive" shooting script that was not used. If he had to help an alliance officer who may identify him and River, where would he stand? (the script left it to the viewer to decide whether the officer dies of his injuries of because of Simon.)
He is an interesting character to explore. The only thing I would say we know for sure is that he would do almost anything for River (but is there a limit to that too?).
As for the pairing with Kaylee, the thing (I think) we more or less disagree on is whether Kaylee has already jumped in both feet or not. (That quip by Kaylee - was it just for humour, or rather what she was really thinking about?). By all means it could be the deep love they write poems about, but we were not there in the series or the BDM. If/when they get there would have to be down to the story and how well it is written.
(saying that I rarely read fic focussing on him and Kaylee as these stories lack "power". Neither of these two the ones who wield it or make the big decisions. At the same time a lot of the angst is totally artificial IMO.)
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Now see, I always assumed that the underground who helped Simon get River out either a) rescued other students at the same time as Simon was getting River or b) were a group who often helped people get their relatives out of that Academy, and so Simon didn't need to think about everyone. But only in bad fanfic would he have rescued them all...he's smart enough to know what he can do and what he can't, and not just help people because he wants to, because it might compromise his other responsibilities. But then, we saw what he did in Ariel, risking his and River's lives to help that dying patient. Sure, River might not have allowed him to do otherwise, but we'll never know, because he took the risk. And we saw him help his enemies in Safe, as well. I think if it came down to it, he would help the Alliance (if not people like Doctor Mathias), because "being a doctor is more to him than money".
I don't see how Mal asking them to stay on Serenity is Simon's fault. The crew of Serenity was Mal's responsibility...he put them at risk, not Simon.
I think I disagree with the idea that Simon's moral fibre has not been tested. Instead, I would say that it has been, to the utmost. He has shown that he takes care of his priorities through thick and thin, even if it may lead to his death. What has not been tested is what he would do when he has more than a couple priorities, or conflicting ones. We saw the beginnings of that in Objects in Space, and I think we would have seen more. I don't think that he would think twice about the decisions you mention, because I don't think they were really hard moral choices. But I do think there would have been times where he was tested if the show had gone on.
--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
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Not again...
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Quote:
But only in bad fanfic would he have rescued them all...
Good distinction. I have read similar stuff. (another being Simon needing to be ordered to rest when there is a disaster situation. The guy is a trained surgeon. If anyone, he will know when his tiredness will hinder rather than help - and he would have to be a bad doctor to not rest when needed.)
Quote:
I don't see how Mal asking them to stay on Serenity is Simon's fault. The crew of Serenity was Mal's responsibility...he put them at risk, not Simon.
But Simon also decided to stay. And it was him that chose the disreputable ship... I am not saying it is all the fault of Simon, but his decisions have cost lives. And these were not even of a moral grey area type!
His Ariel bit did not IMO compromise him. Him not helping was a greater chance of fuss by River. He did help the sick in "Safe" though.
Yeah, my questions were kind of lame. In that we all (think we) know what he would do. But lets say he has a child with Kaylee, then after that there is trouble with River and the alliance, would he still take the same risks?
We know he is totally committed to River at the moment. That does not mean he is morally clear at all. How far would he go to help her?
As you said it is more of when there is more than one priority to consider that it is tricky. But that is what I call the moral grey area. if there is only one priority, he will do what is needed.
The thing about this type of discussion is that it can take thousands of words, but if you put it into fic, it would probably be a half a line!
I still don't think his moral fortitude has been tested. If it was I personally do not think he would too well. Not badly either by any standards. Just need the right test.
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
The thing about this type of discussion is that it can take thousands of words, but if you put it into fic, it would probably be a half a line!
i wish!:) (oh wait, a GOOD fic - ha ha!)
your reply mirrors my thinking uncannily.
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Simon is never going to have a serious relationship with anybody who would be caught deadin that pink dress, much less anybody who (as Zoe said about Serenity) paid money for it deliberately. And Kaylee is never going to have a serious relationship with anybody who thinks Serenity is le-se.
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I think I pretty much agree with you NBZ...it's just some minor distinctions. I often equate the Simon/River/Kaylee interaction with the typical father/child/wife scenario. If both the child and wife are in danger, who will the father save? If both River and Kaylee are in danger, who would Simon save?
But I don't think that it's decisions like that that show moral fortitude (they're just angsty and difficult choices), it's more, like you said, will I kill innocents to protect those I love? If Simon thought the only way to keep River safe was to kill someone innocent (or mostly so), would he do it? We can't really be sure, because Joss never put Simon in that kind of position. So far, he's made the pretty clear choices: I think we all agree that stealing from the government who tortured your sister is not that morally shady, likewise killing people who are trying to kill you. So we really can have very little idea what he would do if the choices were completely grey.
I agree with your point about joining Serenity costing lives, I just don't see it as a real reason to blame Simon...they all had free will, and chose to associate with him, after he made it perfectly clear what risks they would be taking. He would have been ungrateful not to accept their help after that. I think that mostly frees him from having to take blame, though I think that if he thought hard about it, he would blame himself, even if he wouldn't do it differently if he had known.
--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown
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