Characterising Kaylee

POSTED BY: nbz
UPDATED: Saturday, October 27, 2007 00:51
VIEWED: 25909
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NBZ

Wednesday, September 19, 2007 11:51 PM

I do agree a lot with what you say.

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
Kaylee hate club? Good grief, no! Not for me, at least. Though it seems that no matter what fandom I am discussing, and no matter what character, people think that if you discuss a character's flaws, you must not like them.

I adore Kaylee...

Yeah, that was in jest. Just you (by which I mean "I") rarely hear of any flaw in Kaylee.

Quote:
I agree with you about Simon's top priority not being learning "tribal customs"...at least in the beginning. By Jaynestown, though, or at least somewhere around there, he seems to be trying somewhat. He has a little casual talk with Kaylee in the beginning, he's secure enough to snark at Jayne in a manner he wouldn't have done in the first few episodes, and he even goes along on the job instead of disdaining it and staying hid. He does seem to want to belong, from what I see, even if it still isn't the most important thing in his life. You say that Simon was being mean in Safe...do you think he was trying to be hurtful? I suppose I would call his words misjudged, but "mean" seems to imply some negative intention behind those words, which by themselves aren't so terrible.

In Safe he was frustrated (partly by Mal forcing him to be "away" from the safety of the ship and partly because the manhandling of River would be exhausting. Did you see how much he was in there moving her around?) and showed it. There was some anger at Mal, some at his situation and where he had been forced to sink to.

Now Kaylee had worked to get to that same level... Even though he did not mean it that way, I do see how it would belittle her. Especially after her choice of "expensive" gift got more or less spat on (not that Simon would know or be to blame as he was not privy to the earlier conversation). That whole exchange says he is from a better world than Kaylee.

To me "mean" does not always have negative connotations. depends on the circumstance. Why was this mean? He was disparaging those who gave him a leg up. That is never a good thing to do, even when frustrated.

Simon does become more and more comfortable with his surroundings. While he may not Like Mal too much, he does trust him. But even after, say OiS where kaylee and Simon are very close... he still does not hit it off til the end of the BDM? he pulls back IMO (after almost losing control before Book disturbed them).

There is simply too much contact on a single ship for me to buy any other explanation I have though up.

Quote:
It's interesting what you say about the crush vs. love in Kaylee. In the beginning, I think Kaylee is just nursing a nice crush, but I don't see her continuing to try with Simon if there wasn't something deeper than that. Perhaps it's just because he's constantly around and he is awful swai, but she seems to have more motivation than that, so I'd guess some sort of love grew after a while.

My whole first post was about Kaylee being motivated! :P He represents a better life than she has had up til now. The fact that they do click mixed with that is a very appealing package to her.

Since they never got together, we do not know that, She was still pining for him. It may turn into love, but that is not a default outcome.

The fact that as soon as Tracey becomes alive she has more or less forgotten about Simon does not leave too well an impression.

Quote:
So long live the short-sighted, ambitious, manipulative, overly emotional Kaylee...I love her dearly.

MERRYK

Thursday, September 20, 2007 12:27 AM

I do remember your first post about Kaylee...I just don't see her ambition lasting after she knows Simon for a while. I definitely agree with that analysis for the first few episodes, but the rest of her behavior would have to be an act if she didn't have a crush on him. And once realizing that Simon was going down the long road to becoming another one of Serenity's crew, and with him pulling back from her, I don't see any motivation for her except some kind of affection or love.

The whole thing with Tracey really throws off the whole ambition theory for me. Either Kaylee is incredibly fickle and just likes young handsome guys as they come, or she's trying to make Simon jealous, or she's trying to show Simon that she's not going to go for him no matter what he does. But I can't see any other motivation fitting here.

I accept your explanation about the "mean" thing. When I first watched the Firefly series, I really disliked Mal (and Jayne) and thought they were being mean, and so when Safe came around I totally agreed with what Simon said and thought Kaylee was overreacting. Now, of course, I see more worth in Mal, but though I still think Simon was justified, it doesn't make it right. It's just that "mean" always made him sound nasty to me.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

NBZ

Thursday, September 20, 2007 12:44 AM

I purposefully had not mentioned Tracey earlier on, as, well, it does throw a monkey-wrench into the "Everything Kaylee does is inspired by motivation" line.

I still stick by the ambition argument, but will add she is also a romantic (in life in general, not just romance). Was she attracted to Tracey, or to Tracey-the-person-who-said-he-wanted-to-do-right-by-his-parents?

(I think both.)

Obviously she is attracted to Simon and he to her. Just suggesting that his old life also plays its part in sort of "extending" it.

What I really liked about Firefly initially was the thing that the characters could be mean. abnd the bit where Dobson got shot. And when Crow got put through an engine. All were unexpected to me. (the "Kaylee's dead" probably did get to everyone as incredibly mean. and subsequently hilarious.)

MERRYK

Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:02 AM

Y'know, I know what you mean about the whole "being mean" thing. As you probably noticed by my tagline, I haven't yet really liked a character who wasn't the moral sort, but that doesn't mean I want perfection. While I don't approve of Mal's behavior, I'm glad that Joss wrote him that way, because I can believe that he's real. And when the usually not-mean people on the crew break down and are mean, I believe in their goodness all the more because I know they have to struggle for it.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

MERRYK

Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:02 AM

Ack, how did I double post?

MERRYK

Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:02 AM

MERRYK

Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:02 AM

SCHOONER

Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:20 AM

I figured Tracy for "Simon lite". At first glance he's good-looking, brave (Cap'n old army buddy), loyal to his family, smart-ish, and running for his life; sounds like Simon to me. At the same time, Tracy's from a Rim planet background that Kaylee can relate to, seems to share Kaylee's basically cheerful disposition, and doesn't have Simon's baggage. I can absolutely see how a hurt and frustrated Kaylee could get a-flutter for someone who is close to Simon, but more approachable.

Until, of course, the chips are down. That's when Simon rises to the occasion and tackles a bounty hunter, while Tracy grabs a gun and uses the girl he was flirting with as a human shield. And keeps trying to flirt with her, no less.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, September 20, 2007 5:29 PM

Whoa - how ironic! I was just chatting with a famous S/K writer about this very thing, and I've been meaning to post my ideas here when I got a minute. And here you are discussing the very thing I wanted to bring up!

The question is: would Kaylee have hooked up with anyone else since Simon came aboard? Here's the opposing viewpoints:

Option 1: Kaylee's in *love* with Simon, and would not have any sex unless it was to get Simon's attention and his jealousy. Hence, her question about "boy whores" in HoG was a dig at Simon, and not a serious question. She wouldn't have gone to a boy whore and risked losing her real love.

Option 2: Kaylee's got a crush on Simon, seeing that he's damned cute and talented and she has nothing else to do for days and days on the little bitty ship but pine after him.

I argue option 2. Easy there, S/K-ers! I think there's plenty of room for something real to develop between them if Simon let it. She wants him for more than sex - if she just wanted sex, she'd be direct about it and get it done. But Simon is something completely different from other men she's met; he awes her and makes her feel inadequate, hence her shyness and touchiness.

I call it just a crush because she has him on a pedestal, and I don't think she sees him clearly. Being naive, she'll probably blame him when she finally sees that he's human, and this is the biggest obstacle between them. But then, I demand equality in relationships, mutual admiration. And I just don't see Simon doing a lot of admiring of Kaylee. Not really. Sorry. When they talk, who are they talking about? Simon. Simon in school, Simon attaching legs, Simon worrying over River. When do they talk about Kaylee? Not a helluva lot. He's self-absorbed, and when the stars in her eyes fade and the afterglow wears off, she'll see it. (Edit to say: I don't mean to put him down. He's self-absorbed with good reason, but the fact remains - he is.)

Now, to bring my feminist arguments into it (because this isn't just about interpreting Kaylee, it's about what message Joss would want to send, being a feminist himself) I think that if Kaylee avoided all trysts from the moment she first met Simon, this would be the same old storyline of a woman trying to be "pure" for a man. It's like she's sexually free until there's a "good man" around to make her clean up, to judge her for enjoying her body as she chooses, and his judgement wins over hers. That totally imposes the idea that a sexually active woman is not desirable and respectable, not to any "worthwhile" man.

To be frank, I'm horrified to think of her trying to make herself into what any man wants, even Simon. I can't see her as viewing all her potential relationships only in light of whether HE would approve or disapprove, and only getting involved if it would make him jealous. That marginalizes her, makes her whole existence only matter as it relates to *him*. That's not Jossian, not unless he means to set up an unequal relationship to make a point.

And this, my friends, is why I can't read much K/S fiction. Or K/anyone. Not many writers include that wonderful sexual freedom and lack of shame Kaylee has, while keeping her cute and sweet and likable. One exception: Kaylee's Lament by ScrewtheAlliance.

Wow. When I post, I post a lot LOL!

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

NBZ

Thursday, September 20, 2007 9:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by schooner:
I figured Tracy for "Simon lite".

I see him as the "Anti-Simon". Whereas Simon does the right thing but messes it up with the words, he does the wrong thing and smooths it over with words.

Even in his last moments, he was fluent, and his language emotive.

"What are you now Mal? What are we Now."

"What I said was right. I never could get my life together. That stupid message.. you will do it? right?"

(all paraphrased)

@mal4prez, I mostly agree. The question is who is bringing up the topics? Simon or Kaylee? If it is Simon, you are spot on. (I would suggest both. That also makes you spot on... weird world eh?)

I am not gonna comment on the "Jossian" argument. I generally dislike that argument ("Joss would have done it", not the feminism bit). Mainly because I have not seen too much of his other works (I am not a big fan of Buffy/Angel) but also because a lot of people use it as a get out clause.(not in this case though)

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