Why the Left is so dangerous
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 8, 2025 14:10
VIEWED: 15600
PAGE 19 of 23
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Agreed. Unfortunately westward expansion and dispossession of the natives eventually led to such ugly concepts as "manifest destiny" and the view that all of the Spanish Americas and the Phillipines were "ours". But in the days of the FF that was a nascent concept which took over a century to develop. I wonder what they would have adopted if they could have seen the future?
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I don't think it would have troubled them as much as you think it should. America was British colonial project, the people went there for economic reasons and personal gain. To a man the Founders were land/business owners of a certain political class within the Empire of the day, folks that had made themselves rich via industry or colonial expansion. These were the men, the new commercial interests, that won and built the British Empire. That a group of them fell out with London and went there own way didn't change who they were.
While the papers of the day stress isolationism and a principly defensive military (itself a compromise between those that wanted a military and those that didnt) the constitution doesnt actually forbid expansion either at home or abroad. In the 1780's America didn't have the means for much force projection and so the question was moot anyway.
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So what you're saying is that the early American government was aggressively expansionist from the start no matter what they said about foreign entanglements, and that our current empire is simply the natural outgrowth of those policies. You may be right, but I was going to beat Finn over the head with statues of our wise FF. You've taken those outta my hands!
So now all I can say is that we compromised our ideals very early on, and look where it's gotten us: Stuck in every corner of the globe.
Fletch, I disagree with you about one thing: empires are not "just" economic. The motivation to empire may be economic, but the means is military. That's what distinguishes an empire from trade relations.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Fletch, I disagree with you about one thing: empires are not "just" economic. The motivation to empire may be economic, but the means is military. That's what distinguishes an empire from trade relations.
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Always look upstream.
If diplomacy is war by other means an Empire is trade relations where you insist on favorable terms. I suspect you have a basic disconnect between what you think a government does in the economic sphere and what it ACTUALLY does.
Remember governments raise their income by taxing some part of the economy, that economy exists due to commerce. The people that vote for that government have economic expectations too and securing those economic objectives becomes a government problem. Remember last year, back before the war became REALLY unpopular? Back then Bush's approval ratings were in the toilet because of high gas prices. Thousands dead, more dying every day is ok... $3+ a gallon for gas and you're in trouble. What does that tell you? It tells me that the economic needs of the country rapidly become political concerns and then national ones. Economic security and general security are not that far distanced. The use of military assets to secure economic security not unthinkable.
Anyway, almost any problem you care to think of has a "military solution" it's just not usually the smartest way to do certain things, yet it stays in the toolkit. However trade is one of those things that responds well to military persuasion. Look at Perry's trip to Japan for example...
Quote:
Commodore Matthew Perry
The first visit, 1852 to 1853
Commodore Perry's fleet for his second visit to Japan in 1854.In 1852, Perry embarked from Norfolk, Virginia, for Japan, in command of a squadron that would negotiate a Japanese trade treaty. Aboard a black-hulled steam frigate, he ported Mississippi, Plymouth, Saratoga, and Susquehanna at Uraga Harbor near Edo (present-day Tokyo) on July 8, 1853, and he was met by representatives of the Tokugawa Shogunate. They told him to proceed to Nagasaki, where the sakoku laws allowed limited trade by the Dutch. Perry refused to leave, and he demanded permission to present a letter from President Millard Fillmore, threatening force if he was denied. Japan had shunned modern technology for centuries, and the Japanese military wouldn't be able to resist Perry's ships; these "Black Ships" would later become a symbol of threatening Western technology and colonialism in Japan.
The Japanese government had to accept Perry's coming ashore to avoid a naval bombardment. Perry proceeded ashore at Kurihama (near present-day Yokosuka) on July 14, presented the letter to the delegates present, and left for the Chinese coast, promising to return later for a reply.
The second visit, 1854
Perry returned in February of 1854 with twice as many ships, finding that the delegates had prepared a treaty embodying virtually all the demands in Fillmore's letter. Perry signed the Convention of Kanagawa on March 31, 1854, and departed, mistakenly believing that the agreement had been made with imperial representatives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese-American_relations#Commodore_Mat
thew_Perry
No bases or colonies needed, not a shot fired. What we call "gunboat diplomacy."
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Siggy, things went wrong almost from the start, just as Pat Henry stated would happen.
Unsound money, Usury, and financial flakery on top of taxes that made folk wonder why we ever fought the british in the first place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays'_Rebellion
And then the first variant of the Patriot Act, which the Federalists had been trying like hell to install from the very inception of this government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts
You're always gonna have those grabbing for the reins of empire Siggy, and from the Alien and Sedition Acts, through both Red Scares, down to the Patriot Act, Federalists have always been attempting to scare the populace into accepting more and more invasive government.
Some folks might even argue ("We have been told of phantoms.") that the Constitution itself was just such a measure in and of itself.
Some folk even did.
http://www.constitution.org/afp/borden00.htm
So, while acknowledging their wisdom and respecting their opinions, it's silly to venerate people who had their own flaws and agendas.
Not everyone is right all the time.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Finn,
You picked a good one, I do side with Kelo. Was Alito on the court for that decision?
However, I would refer to the recent decision where the court supported a school Principal's decision to suspend a boy because she disagreed with a sign reading "Bong hits 4 Jesus" displayed by the boy (who was off school grounds at the time).
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Bong hits 4 jesus... http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/06/25/free.speech/index.html
Ok, interesting, it was argued it was a field trip; and thus it was considered something the school could suppress.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Agreed. Unfortunately westward expansion and dispossession of the natives eventually led to such ugly concepts as "manifest destiny" and the view that all of the Spanish Americas and the Phillipines were "ours".
but it DID become ours.. so maybe it was.
Quote:
Secret Mysteries of America's Beginnings
Have you ever wondered why President Bush ordered American forces to invade Iraq and Afghanistan? In his Second Inaugural Address on January 20, 2005, President Bush said that he invaded these two countries because he was attempting to complete an Ancient Plan based on an "Ancient Hope", a Plan called the "New Order of the Ages". How old is this Plan? How far back in history does this Plan go? You will be shocked to discover the answer.
Secret Mysteries of America's Beginnings unfolds the fascinating history behind the founding of America, and exposes the esoteric underbelly of its design. Why is Washington D.C. build on the 77th Meridian? Are the Revolutionary War cities really built in perfect alignment with Stonehenge? If America was founded as a Christian nation, why are many of its symbols based on Pagan traditions? There is no doubt that much of America's national heritage was Christian, but just as a coin has two sides, our national heritage has a second side – one based squarely on occult secret societies and their values.
To find the answer to these questions, we follow the journey of secret societies from England to the New World and learn of their ancient hope: to rebuild the lost empire of Atlantis.
In the 16th century, Sir Francis Bacon was at the helm of the secret societies in England. When Bacon penned his classic work, 'The New Atlantis' he believed that America and Atlantis were one and the same. He outlined his vision for the perfect society, and some suggest the program he set forth has been the driving force behind the course of modern history. While he did not originate the concept, it was Bacon who articulated an ancient plan to be carried out by all the secret orders.
As Chief of the Rosicrucians and the first Grand Master of modern Freemasonry, Bacon sent his followers to the new world. A 1910 Newfoundland stamp with his image upon it reads, 'Lord Bacon: the Guiding Spirit in [the] Colonization Scheme.' Because of his influence, Francis Bacon is considered by some to be 'the real and true founder of America.' For centuries, controversy has surrounded this figure who is said to be the illegitimate son of Queen Elizabeth I, and secret author of the Shakespeare plays; the man whom Thomas Jefferson considered one of the three most influential men in history.
Is it possible that Bacon’s vision guides America today?
-watch video here http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=12389 -
(if the video doesnt work, heres a trailer
)
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Quote:I get the impression that this doesn’t mean the same thing to me as it does to you. The very fact that this ridiculous case went to the Supreme Court sort of argues my point, in my opinion. We should expect that children will respect their teachers when they tell them not to hold up signs that say “Bong hits 4 Jesus” or dress in Pasta Pirate outfits, but now children can take their disruptive behavior all the way to the Supreme Court, evidently. I see this as a phenomenal waste of time and money of the Supreme Court and all the Appellate Courts.
Originally posted by Veteran:
Finn,
You picked a good one, I do side with Kelo. Was Alito on the court for that decision?
However, I would refer to the recent decision where the court supported a school Principal's decision to suspend a boy because she disagreed with a sign reading "Bong hits 4 Jesus" displayed by the boy (who was off school grounds at the time).
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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"We should expect that children will respect their teachers when they tell them not to hold up signs that say “Bong hits 4 Jesus” or dress in Pasta Pirate outfits"
Out on the street ? Away from school ? On their own time ? Little martinete that you are, I guess you don't understand the concept of freedom of expression.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:Or wear jewlery that is against school regulations. Unfortunatly some believe there should be one set of rules for one group, and another set for another group.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I get the impression that this doesn’t mean the same thing to me as it does to you. The very fact that this ridiculous case went to the Supreme Court sort of argues my point, in my opinion. We should expect that children will respect their teachers when they tell them not to hold up signs that say “Bong hits 4 Jesus” or dress in Pasta Pirate outfits, but now children can take their disruptive behavior all the way to the Supreme Court, evidently. I see this as a phenomenal waste of time and money of the Supreme Court and all the Appellate Courts.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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