Why the Left is so dangerous
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 8, 2025 14:10
VIEWED: 15600
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Quote:Yeah, those were the excuses, and of course everyone knows the Tet Offensive was a tragic American defeat.
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Seriously though, the parallels with Vietnam are, in fact, much more pertinent than most people seem to be willing to talk about. We didn't lose in Vietnam because we gave up. We 'lost' because it was a foolish war to begin with. There was no victory there worth the effort so we left. We're in exactly the same situation now.
The truth is, as much as it will be completely dismissed, many of those who want to leave Iraq, aren’t interested in the consequences, because 1) they have grown complacent and feel safe from unintended consequences and 2) they don’t care what happens in Iraq. So the Vietnam comparison actually becomes encouraging then, because after the US withdrew from Vietnam there was a sense of relief that the war was over, and I suppose it was for Americans, but the horrors continued for a very long time in Vietnam and surrounding states. And actually, as a direct result of US abandoning SE Asia, matters there worsened a lot. I’m not sure that we can just pack up and leave this time without some serious consequences. We tried that in Afghanistan ten years ago – that certainly fixed all the problems there. I feel that it is just as important that we not be responsible for helping to create another Khmer Rouge or Taliban. It’s bad enough that in tens years well just have to go back in, but frankly, I find a certain amount of disgust when I think of Americans retreating to their wealthy and safe nation believing the war is “over” because they gave up when they couldn’t win fast enough to suit the media.
And that’s my rant for this evening.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I find a certain amount of disgust when I think of Americans retreating to their wealthy and safe nation believing the war is “over” because they gave up when they couldn’t win fast enough to suit the media.
...and that's the way this game is played. When you can't sell it as a war that will defeat the terrorists, you fall back on the humanitarian plea. Which is it? Neither. The Iraq war is, and always was, an opening move on the part of the neo-cons. Their grand strategy imagines that rebuilding Iraq as a bastion for freedom and democracy will spread to other nations in the region and bring in a new age of 'Pax Americana'.
How much we you willing to sacrifice for their imperial fantasies?
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:Ah, the delusional fantasy of the evil American Empire. Any consequence is worth it as long as you can defeat the evil American Empire. Signym wanted an example, here’s one. When you find your argument compromised by the complexities of reality, you re-invent it as righteous opposition to some fantastic Imperialistic America seeking world domination. Except that this is purely in your head, and it doesn’t really solve the underlying problems. In the real world America is not seeking world domination but abandoning Vietnam and Afghanistan did, as a matter of fact, have very serious and quite real unintended consequences, some of which Americans were not spared from. And it’s likely that abandoning Iraq could have similar serious consequences. So this is a perfect example of the problem that I have with some of the dissenting arguments – to often reality is supplanted by this comic book crap about Darth Bush and his band of demonic Neo-con.
Originally posted by SergeantX:
...and that's the way this game is played. When you can't sell it as a war that will defeat the terrorists, you fall back on the humanitarian plea. Which is it? Neither. The Iraq war is, and always was, an opening move on the part of the neo-cons. Their grand strategy imagines that rebuilding Iraq as a bastion for freedom and democracy will spread to other nations in the region and bring in a new age of 'Pax Americana'.
How much we you willing to sacrifice for their imperial fantasies?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Iraqi Prime Minister: U.S. troops can leave any time they want
BAGHDAD -- Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki shrugged off U.S. doubts of his government's military and political progress on Saturday, saying Iraqi forces are capable and American troops can leave "any time they want."
Yeah, I can tell how much progress we're making.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:I’m not sure where you got this, but what I think he said was that he believed Iraqi forces could take control by the end of the year.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Iraqi Prime Minister: U.S. troops can leave any time they want
BAGHDAD -- Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki shrugged off U.S. doubts of his government's military and political progress on Saturday, saying Iraqi forces are capable and American troops can leave "any time they want."
I think we’ve made a lot of progress. Anbar is under control and the Iraqi government is asserting more control over militias. There’s still a lot of work to do and I’m not completely confident that the Iraqi forces can maintain this success without joint US operational support. But I’ve been thinking (or perhaps hoping), lately, if it wouldn’t be a good idea to start considering a drawdown in the near future or maybe a drawback from joint operations, until we see what the Iraqi government can do. Either way, I'm encouraged by recent developments and I hope they are signs that Iraq can be expedited.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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One of the problem I see in a pull out is that Iraq will become the theatre for a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia and possibly a shooting war between Turkey and Kurdistan. These kind of calculations aren't even mentioned in the US press right now and certainly dont form part of the political debate.
I'm not sure that's a good enough reason NOT to pull out, just worries me that it's not being considered.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6284718.stm
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Bullshit Finn.
The PNAC/Neocon/Clean Break agenda is completely documented and admitted in painstaking detail, and like anything else that gets in the way of your idiotic fantasies and faerytales, you like to just play "let's pretend" and say it doesn't exist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century
I see no point in discussing things with folks who deny really obvious realities because they're inconvenient, the rest of y'all can 
all you want, but I ain't wastin my time.
Oh, and Fletch ?
I've repeatedly stated that there's gonna be a bloodbath when we pull out, and that some of the blame for it does belong to us, yes.
Thing is, no matter when we pull out, it's still gonna happen, so might as well get it over with - either our friendly puppet-gov will slaughter mercilessly all opposition a'la Saddam, or get reamed and run down like The Shah, either way it means ANOTHER thirty years of hate, fear and terrorism, whether it happens now, a year from now, or ten years from now.
The reasons for that are fairly plain, since we are not, and never have been, interested in actual diplomacy with the people "in the way" of our favorite congressional campaign spot.
It's not being considered by the press because US and allied propaganda has been so completely successful in dehumanising and demonising them that they're just more dead arabs no one gives a shit about no more.
I may be crass, but at least i'm willin to look at the stark realities here - all we need to really do, it let go of the fucking banana, pull our hand out of the jar, and GO HOME.
Let it be someone else's problem, cause it ain't mine and never was.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Frem,
think you may have missed a small distinction here. I'm not talking about the discussed "bad situation" if we win or lose there will be terrorist "blowback" risks for a while.
No what I'm talking about is the risk of a wider regional conflict that escalates until friend and foe alike get involved. Saudia Arabia is looking into developing domestic nuclear power, which seems a bit fishy when you realise they sit on most of the carbon based fuel in the world. They don't really need nuclear power in much the same way that short term the Iranians dont. Of cause the Saudi's are our buddies so we'll let them have it unless Israel can really twist arms in Washington. There is a potential of a nuclearised mid east in our lifetime.
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Said conflict was gonna happen anyway, Fletch.
The very instant we upset the balance of power by kickin Saddam in the can over Kuwait, it was all but inevitable - we may see a wider ranging conflict, sure, but folks underestimate just how territorial the culture is, just look at the history of the region... they pursue you to the borders of their land, spit in your direction, and then go home cussing you.
I don't have any easy answers beyond it not being our damn problem if we don't want it to be, but it's obvious our presence there is stirring the kettle, as is our unconditional support of the town bully and his cronies.
As for nukes, that's inevitable as well, while it may not have been their intention, the morons we have in charge have sent a clear message on that front, either get some nukes or have your own internal policies dictated to you by the US and her allies, which means *everybody* wants one now, just to be on the safe side.
There's no real avoiding the consequences of our own stupidity in this, unfortunately, but it's like sawing down the legs of a wobbly table, it's bad enough as it is, but if we KEEP pickin at it, we might soon enough be staring down the barrel of a disaster.
The thing that's giving me the twitchies right now is that enraged Pakistanis pissed about their gov supporting us, might topple it - and the Paki's DO have nukes, as I recall.
I'd really like to be off this rock before the nutters on it boil it like a three minute egg, thanks.
-F
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